Mary Sinless?

[dinomight]

Why exactly is Jesus suppose to be the sole caretaker of his mother?

and where's Joseph in all of this, too???

You are assuming things that aren't even alluded to before you read it...

If Joseph had been alive at the time Jesus was crucified, I don't think we would even be having this discussion, because Jesus wouldn't have had a need to entrust the care of His mother to anyone. He wouldn't have been responsible for her in that manner. I guess we're back to the idea of implied vs. explicit concepts in Scripture, but I just don't think that everything in the Bible is immediately clear, or even intended to be. That's the very reason we now have so many denominations. Just think how much effort has gone into the study of Revelation and its connections with other parts of the Bible related to end-times prophecies. Most, but not all, denominations do believe that Jesus will literally return to establish His kingdom, and yet there are all of these different ideas of how and when it will happen. Will there be a Rapture before Christ returns? Some say there will be and defend it through Scripture, while others say there won't be and defend it through Scripture. In order to say that there will be a Rapture, we have to use Biblical verses that seem to indicate it will happen, and yet they don't explicitly state that it will. Some people believe those "Rapture" verses are talking about the Second Coming.

I don't want to debate the Rapture at this point, thus bringing us even more off topic than ever before, but it seemed like a good illustration to me of how Protestants also sometimes develop theories that aren't stated in a completely direct way.

 

[Clifford B]

I do not deny that the saints are watching, even as in the end of Hebrews where they are waiting for us to do our part. They are likely cheering us on. There are some clear points in scripture, however, rather than conjecture. No one can come back from the dead lest God sends them. Angels are messengers on the son of man (see Jacob's ladder). Prayer goes through the only sinless one (Jesus) to God. Jesus is a priest forever, like Melchisedek to God. Jesus was tempted in all points.
He is unique, and he is our designated intercessor.
I suppose one could pray to Mary, but is there any advantage? Technically people that pray to the earth are in the same place...that's where Adam came from...and ultimately Jesus.
I just think specific instructions would hold sway.

 

[MrStain]

It doesn't say when Mary "got pregnant", but I'm pretty sure since the "next things he did" was go to see her cousin and her cousin's baby leaped when Mary (and her baby) came near, that she was pregnant when the angel went to her. Its a much smaller leap than the ones you are making.

and that verse in Romans 6 isn't talking about us not sinning because of grace, but rather that we aren't under the PUNISHMENT of sin because of grace. What you are getting and what it says are completely different things.

Its comparing the law (strict penalties for any/every sin) to grace (we're forgiven because Jesus took the penalty for us)... In both cases, we still screw up.

We don't overcome sin by stopping (note: we should be trying to stop and working to stop, but we will still fall), we overcame sin already through the blood Christ shed.

Any other interpretation is just diminishing what Christ did on the cross and in the streets of Jeruselam that day.

uhh.. A clear & honest reading of the narrative in Luke will show that Mary was told she "will" become pregnant at a later time.

• Lk 1:31 - You WILL be with child and give birth to a son...
• Lk 1:35 - The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit WILL come upon you, and the power of the Most High WILL overshadow you

These things WILL happen and thus had not happened yet.

I'm not the one diminishing anything here and having a problem agreeing with Mary who said, "For with God nothing will be impossible." I'm not the one who doesn't see the ways God works with his chosen instruments. For example, the Prophet Jeremiah was sanctified from his birth because he was destined to be the herald of God's law to Israelites. (Jer 1:5). Also, since you brought up John the Baptist, he was also filled with the Holy Ghost in his mother's womb (Lk 1:15) in order to prepare him to be the voice crying out in the wilderness, preparing the way of the Lord.

 

[dinomight]

I guess the question is "why bother"? If you have a relationship with Jesus, and he is the one intercessor, ask him directly.... The scripture says there is ONE intercessor between God and man. You, being a human, is trying to get through to God...Jesus is it. It's pretty simple. It is not as if Jesus is put off by your requests and you need somebody that is a good, protective mother figure, eh?
If you don't have a one-on-one with Jesus, prayer doesn't matter much anyway.

I've read what you've posted after what I'm quoting, and I agree with much of what you're saying, but I would like to address your "what's the point?" statement. By this logic, you could easily say what's the point in having anyone pray for us, regardless of whether they're in Heaven or on Earth. The answer, interestingly enough, is found just a few lines prior to a verse that you quoted earlier.

1 Timothy 2 (King James Version)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;





So, obviously we are indeed supposed to pray, and intercede, for one another. I think this passage makes an interesting distinction between the roles of "mediator" and "intercessor." Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man. Yet, we are supposed to intercede for each other, which we do through prayer.


I doubt you were really trying to say that there's no point at all in praying for other people, but these verses from 1 Timothy really put a lot in perspective for me.

 

[MrStain]

I think you are forgetting that God took Moses' body and that Elijah didn't die.

Its perfectly possible that those two are in heaven and no one else is (since one didn't die and the other was "taken away" by God Himself)

Moses died according to Scripture and yet he appeared again at the transfiguration.

Deut 34:5 - "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD."

My point still stands with just a few verses, but I'm sure there are many more. Saints in Heaven are not in some sort of cryogenic slumber as we've seen from the Bible.

ETA: I'm glad you mentioned Elijah. That is just more support for the real possibility of the Assumption of Mary!

 

[dinomight]

Moses died according to Scripture and yet he appeared again at the transfiguration.

Deut 34:5 - "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD."

My point still stands with just a few verses, but I'm sure there are many more. Saints in Heaven are not in some sort of cryogenic slumber as we've seen from the Bible.

ETA: I'm glad you mentioned Elijah. That is just more support for the real possibility of the Assumption of Mary!

And I'm glad you mentioned the Assumption. I was just thinking the other day about this. Obviously, the story of Elijah shows that it is possible for God to take someone into Heaven without them having to die first. So, it's totally feasible that this happened to Mary as well. The problem is that we get back into the idea that it's not explicitly stated in Scripture. That doesn't mean it didn't happen though.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi, this is my first post on this site, and I look forward to exploring the community.

To start, I'm currently a member of a Baptist church, and I have been studying Catholicism and Church history lately. My main studies on Catholicism have been over the Internet through various sites, and I've got a book I'm currently reading about the Early Church.

Through my research, I've found that the Catholics have many good points that they defend through Scripture. I can't say that I agree with everything, but I'm developing a much greater understanding of why Catholics believe what they do. Of course, it's hard to argue with a point when there is Scripture to support it, and so I've found that most of my issues with the Church are resolved.

Here is probably the single greatest thing that I now take exception to, and that is the idea that Mary, mother of Jesus, did not sin. I've read a bit on this topic, but it just does not make sense to me that she, who was only human, could have possibly been sinless.

Please note that I'm simply trying to learn as much as I can, and of course I pray that God will lead me down the right path. I know that He will not let me down as long as my trust is in Christ. With that said, I would really appreciate anyone's clarification about Mary, and where the idea of her sinlessness and the Immaculate Conception came from. Thank you.

Hi, welcome! that's a question that a lot of people struggle with, and I've struggled with it too. It's good to seek answers.
I'll just share some of my thoughts with you about Mary based on what the Catholic Church teaches. We believe that since she literally bore Our Lord - the Son of God - in her womb..and since every sin offends God..it was important for her to be pure and free from any sin. Also, Jesus received His human nature - His Body - from Mary. This is where the Immaculate Conception comes in... contrary to what some non Catholics say, Mary did not save herself. She was also saved by God, just like we are. She was also redeemed. The difference is that she was saved at conception. Instead of God forgiving her for past sins, He gave her so much grace that she was prevented from sinning in the first place. The Bible says she is FULL of grace. There was simply no 'room' for sin in her. It is difficult to say where God's sovereignty ends, and free will begins...we do believe that she could have chosen to sin, and she could have not agreed to give birth to Jesus, but God gave her the grace to be obedient to His will. Hope that makes sense..
I should also say that Christians have believed in Mary's sinlessness since the early Church days. Here's an article with more information, which most likely explains it all better than I can - in fact, the whole website is excellent!
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_conceived_without_sin_immaculate_conception.htm

may God bless you in your search! You're welcome to ask at OBOB if you have any more questions (or here, if you want)
Keep on trusting God!

monica

 

[MrStain]

and it isn't biased to read things into Scripture that aren't even remotely there??

And, sorry, I hate to tell you this but when you say someone never sinned, say they are the New Covenant's Ark of the Covenant, and that they for no reason other than it sounds nice never had sex (not even with thier husband), you are diefying them.

There is no other way to put it. You are putting holiness upon Mary that there is no reason to put upon her other than the fact that some Catholic leaders somewhere wanted to have a goddess, too, so they started making up stuff about how awesome Mary was. Is that what everyone does about it? No. But I would bet that's where it started.

Can you tell me which "Catholic leaders somewhere wanted to have a goddess"? I don't think so! You're bias is in full view now.

That's ok. Let's try another approach and continue to look at Scripture instead of extra-biblical Jack Chick comics to show how God prepared Mary for her ministry.

Mary's immaculate conception is in keeping with traditions of salvation history. The presence of God imparts holiness.

First, the ground of Mount Sinai was declared holy due to God's presence (Ex 3:5) and let's not forget the Israeli army camp (Deut 23:14).

Let's look at the tabernacle that prefigured the temple. If you recall the furnishings were not to be touched by anyone on pain of death (Num 1:51-53, 2:17, 4:15). Remember what happened when Uzziah touched the ark (2 Sam 6:2-7) or when the men of Beth-shemesh looked inside the ark (1 Sam 6:19)? Remember, God dwelt above the mercy seat on top of the ark and the holy of holies could only be entered by the high priest, and only on the Day of Atonement with appropriate reverence (Lev 16; Num 29:8) The Jews used to tie a rope to the ankle of the high priest entering the holy of holies, so that they could pull him out if he was disobedient in some manner.

The Jewish temple site was also extremely holy (1 Chron 29:3, Is 11:9, 56:7, 64:10), as well as the rooms and sacred objects (Ezek 42:13, 46:19, Is 62:9), and the city of Jerusalem itself (Neh 11:1,18, Is 48:2). Don't forget that angels are also called holy ones because of their proximity to God (Job 5:1).

The point of all this is to show how God regards things that come in close contact with Him -- the Almighty. The more we get close to Him the more we must be holy and Mary was as close as you could ever get to God.

"For He was formed by the Holy Ghost from her flesh. And His blood, that saving blood which redeemed the world, was taken from her heart. And whilst the Godhead dwelt bodily in Him, He, for nine months, dwelt bodily in her. And all that time... the stream which nourished the growth of life in Jesus flowed from the heart of Mary, and, at each pulsation, flowed back again, and re-entered His Mother's heart, enriching her with His divinest spirit. How pregnant is that blood of His with sanctifying grace, one drop of which might have redeemed the world... Next to that union by which Jesus is God and man in one person, there is no union so intimate as that of a mother and child.

Certainly, He who preserved the three children from being touched by fire in the midst of which they walked uninjured, and who preserved the bush unconsumed in the midst of a burning flame, could preserve Mary untouched by the burning fuel of concupiscence. He who took up Elijah in the fiery chariot, so that he tasted not of death, could, in the chariot of His ardent love, set Mary on high above the law of sin... And He who held back the waves of that Jordan, that the ark of the Old Testament might pass untouched and honored through its bed, could hold back the wave of Adam, lest it overflow the ark of the New Testament beneath its defiling floods." - William Ullathorne

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Catholics do not consider Mary to be divine or a goddess.. we simply believe that since she is Christ's Mother, she is elevated above any other creature, and we respect her for this. (if you say that she is 'just like us', what are your reasons for thinking so? Isn't it important that Mary is Christ's Mother but we are not? That's a pretty big distinction between her and us IMHO) But whatever virtue she has, was given to her by God, and she glorifies Him in all that she does. She also teaches us by her example how to glorify Him in our own lives

 

[dinomight]

Hi, welcome! that's a question that a lot of people struggle with, and I've struggled with it too. It's good to seek answers.
I'll just share some of my thoughts with you about Mary based on what the Catholic Church teaches. We believe that since she literally bore Our Lord - the Son of God - in her womb..and since every sin offends God..it was important for her to be pure and free from any sin. Also, Jesus received His human nature - His Body - from Mary. This is where the Immaculate Conception comes in... contrary to what some non Catholics say, Mary did not save herself. She was also saved by God, just like we are. She was also redeemed. The difference is that she was saved at conception. Instead of God forgiving her for past sins, He gave her so much grace that she was prevented from sinning in the first place. The Bible says she is FULL of grace. There was simply no 'room' for sin in her. It is difficult to say where God's sovereignty ends, and free will begins...we do believe that she could have chosen to sin, and she could have not agreed to give birth to Jesus, but God gave her the grace to be obedient to His will. Hope that makes sense..
I should also say that Christians have believed in Mary's sinlessness since the early Church days. Here's an article with more information, which most likely explains it all better than I can - in fact, the whole website is excellent!

may God bless you in your search! You're welcome to ask at OBOB if you have any more questions (or here, if you want)
Keep on trusting God!

monica

Thank you for your explanation and for the link. This discussion has taken many interesting twists and turns, so it was refreshing to read someone else's perspective on the original question.

By the way, I've seen OBOB mentioned a couple times, but I'm not sure what it is. Could you please explain it to me? Thanks.

 

[larry_boy_44]

uhh.. A clear & honest reading of the narrative in Luke will show that Mary was told she "will" become pregnant at a later time.

• Lk 1:31 - You WILL be with child and give birth to a son...
• Lk 1:35 - The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit WILL come upon you, and the power of the Most High WILL overshadow you

These things WILL happen and thus had not happened yet.

I'm not the one diminishing anything here and having a problem agreeing with Mary who said, "For with God nothing will be impossible." I'm not the one who doesn't see the ways God works with his chosen instruments. For example, the Prophet Jeremiah was sanctified from his birth because he was destined to be the herald of God's law to Israelites. (Jer 1:5). Also, since you brought up John the Baptist, he was also filled with the Holy Ghost in his mother's womb (Lk 1:15) in order to prepare him to be the voice crying out in the wilderness, preparing the way of the Lord.

Jeremiah 1:5 says no such thing. It says he was appointed, not sanctified. There is a HUGE difference.

same thing with John, too... That doesn't mean he never sinned, it doesn't mean he never was married or had sex. Could he have never married? Sure. although I'd argue that since he was human he had to have sinned (plus we're filled with the Spirit, too, and we still sin)

And I agree with what you are saying about when she was impregnated, I'm just saying we don't know when the exact conception was, it isn't like there is a point she knew because that's when she had sex or something like with most kids... But those phrases you described in Luke 1:31 and 35 can be multiple tenses, just because they are future tense in English doesn't mean they were in Greek (nor does it mean that's what the angel said). The word is used in other places in other tenses...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I've read what you've posted after what I'm quoting, and I agree with much of what you're saying, but I would like to address your "what's the point?" statement. By this logic, you could easily say what's the point in having anyone pray for us, regardless of whether they're in Heaven or on Earth. The answer, interestingly enough, is found just a few lines prior to a verse that you quoted earlier.

1 Timothy 2 (King James Version)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;





So, obviously we are indeed supposed to pray, and intercede, for one another. I think this passage makes an interesting distinction between the roles of "mediator" and "intercessor." Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man. Yet, we are supposed to intercede for each other, which we do through prayer.


I doubt you were really trying to say that there's no point at all in praying for other people, but these verses from 1 Timothy really put a lot in perspective for me.

But no where in there does it say we should pray to finite dead people so they can then turn around and pray for us...

Besides which, think about it logically... with all the people that pray to Mary regularly for her to pray for them... She'd never have time to listen to all thier requests. In fact, I don't see how she (being finite and not powerful) could even know who was praying to her and when other than in one specific place at a time...

 

[larry_boy_44]

Moses died according to Scripture and yet he appeared again at the transfiguration.

Deut 34:5 - "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD."

My point still stands with just a few verses, but I'm sure there are many more. Saints in Heaven are not in some sort of cryogenic slumber as we've seen from the Bible.

ETA: I'm glad you mentioned Elijah. That is just more support for the real possibility of the Assumption of Mary!

You should keep reading. God hid Moses' body because the devil wanted it. That's why I said Moses could have been at the transfiguration even though no one else was in heaven.

It had nothing to do with Moses not dying (Although God could have just told them he died because he didn't want to explain what happened to the people)

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thank you for your explanation and for the link. This discussion has taken many interesting twists and turns, so it was refreshing to read someone else's perspective on the original question.

By the way, I've seen OBOB mentioned a couple times, but I'm not sure what it is. Could you please explain it to me? Thanks.

sure! OBOB is the Catholic forum here at CF
http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26
feel free to ask any questions there!

God bless!

 

[larry_boy_44]

Can you tell me which "Catholic leaders somewhere wanted to have a goddess"? I don't think so! You're bias is in full view now.

That's ok. Let's try another approach and continue to look at Scripture instead of extra-biblical Jack Chick comics to show how God prepared Mary for her ministry.

Mary's immaculate conception is in keeping with traditions of salvation history. The presence of God imparts holiness.

First, the ground of Mount Sinai was declared holy due to God's presence (Ex 3:5) and let's not forget the Israeli army camp (Deut 23:14).

Let's look at the tabernacle that prefigured the temple. If you recall the furnishings were not to be touched by anyone on pain of death (Num 1:51-53, 2:17, 4:15). Remember what happened when Uzziah touched the ark (2 Sam 6:2-7) or when the men of Beth-shemesh looked inside the ark (1 Sam 6:19)? Remember, God dwelt above the mercy seat on top of the ark and the holy of holies could only be entered by the high priest, and only on the Day of Atonement with appropriate reverence (Lev 16; Num 29:8) The Jews used to tie a rope to the ankle of the high priest entering the holy of holies, so that they could pull him out if he was disobedient in some manner.

The Jewish temple site was also extremely holy (1 Chron 29:3, Is 11:9, 56:7, 64:10), as well as the rooms and sacred objects (Ezek 42:13, 46:19, Is 62:9), and the city of Jerusalem itself (Neh 11:1,18, Is 48:2). Don't forget that angels are also called holy ones because of their proximity to God (Job 5:1).

The point of all this is to show how God regards things that come in close contact with Him -- the Almighty. The more we get close to Him the more we must be holy and Mary was as close as you could ever get to God.

"For He was formed by the Holy Ghost from her flesh. And His blood, that saving blood which redeemed the world, was taken from her heart. And whilst the Godhead dwelt bodily in Him, He, for nine months, dwelt bodily in her. And all that time... the stream which nourished the growth of life in Jesus flowed from the heart of Mary, and, at each pulsation, flowed back again, and re-entered His Mother's heart, enriching her with His divinest spirit. How pregnant is that blood of His with sanctifying grace, one drop of which might have redeemed the world... Next to that union by which Jesus is God and man in one person, there is no union so intimate as that of a mother and child.

Certainly, He who preserved the three children from being touched by fire in the midst of which they walked uninjured, and who preserved the bush unconsumed in the midst of a burning flame, could preserve Mary untouched by the burning fuel of concupiscence. He who took up Elijah in the fiery chariot, so that he tasted not of death, could, in the chariot of His ardent love, set Mary on high above the law of sin... And He who held back the waves of that Jordan, that the ark of the Old Testament might pass untouched and honored through its bed, could hold back the wave of Adam, lest it overflow the ark of the New Testament beneath its defiling floods." - William Ullathorne

Yeah, it was a little Jack Chick admittedly but it isn't like it would be the first time the church did something like that (see: Christmas & Easter just as the starting point), but it also could easily fit especially with some of the over-reverence I've seen personally and read about towards Mary.

As for the rest of what you said. Not one word of it says that Mary had to never sin.

God MADE those things holy Himself when He entered them. They weren't created flawless, they just became flawless and pure for the time He was in them...

So could the argument be made that Mary was completely holy during the time she was pregnant? Yes.

But to make htat argument about any other moment in her life is to actually IGNORE the precedent that God set. None of those items were holy before they became those items. They were only made holy once God entered them.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Catholics do not consider Mary to be divine or a goddess.. we simply believe that since she is Christ's Mother, she is elevated above any other creature, and we respect her for this. (if you say that she is 'just like us', what are your reasons for thinking so? Isn't it important that Mary is Christ's Mother but we are not? That's a pretty big distinction between her and us IMHO) But whatever virtue she has, was given to her by God, and she glorifies Him in all that she does. She also teaches us by her example how to glorify Him in our own lives

So she's the greatest thing in all of Creation and sinless???

1 a: the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity bcapitalized : god 1 , supreme being2: a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>3: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

sounds like you're saying shes "supremely good" don't it? and since that's actually the definition of "deity", sounds like you are, in fact, deifying her.

now let's look at the definition of "deify":

1. a. to make a god of b. to take as an object of worship
2. to glorify as of supreme worth

What exactly do you think it means to say someone is "elevated above all other creatures"??? Sounds like glorify as of supreme worth to me...

last definition is that of "demigod":

a person so outsanding so as to seem to approach the devine

sounds like that fits what you are doing to.

Is it what you mean to do? Of course not... But that doesn't mean you aren't doing it...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

So she's the greatest thing in all of Creation and sinless???

well, she's the Mother of God. (cause Jesus is God)
that's a pretty 'lofty' position dont' you think?

sounds like you're saying shes "supremely good" don't it? and since that's actually the definition of "deity", sounds like you are, in fact, deifying her.

hmm no.. see God is good in Himself. Mary is good because God made her good. By grace. Soo her goodness is a gift from God. see the distinction?
Remember that we were originally supposed to be perfect too, and would have been, if Adam and Eve hadn't fallen. Someday in heaven we'll be perfect too. Doesn't mean we'll be God, right? Same with Mary cause..our perfection would come from Him, and so does hers.

What exactly do you think it means to say someone is "elevated above all other creatures"??? Sounds like glorify as of supreme worth to me...

wasn't she called "blessed among women"?

she's elevated among CREATURES...not to God's level...but simply above our level. I think it is a wonderful humbling thing to know that there's someone who's above us in holiness

last definition is that of "demigod":

sounds like that fits what you are doing to.

but we dont think she's divine.

Is it what you mean to do? Of course not... But that doesn't mean you aren't doing it...

Catholicism is more complex, more deep. It's not like everyone is the same, and then there's God. The Apostles are holier than us, so is Mary, so are the Saints.. doesn't make them deities.. just more sanctified

To use an example from a book by St Therese.. imagine two glasses, one bigger than the other, but both filled to the top with water.. which one is fuller? well both are full. but they're not the same size. Or two flowers, a rose and a daisy, the sun shines on both equally but they're not the same. That's how it is in Heaven perhaps. We're all filled with God's love and experience His presence, but we don't all have the same amount of glory. Mary has the most of all creatures, since she bore the Savior in her own womb. "If there's equality it's in God's love, not in us" CS Lewis.

 

[calluna]

Lol, just because I have a decent understanding of Catholicism doesn't mean I am Catholic.

It's your understanding of John's gospel that is the issue.

I'm also proud to stand alongside my Christian brethren in the Catholic Church.

So mankind is justified by faith and cursed by 'dirty rags' simultaneously. Oh, the miracles of modern religion!

 

[bbbbbbb]

That is an interesting question you bring up. But, I've never seen anything that indicates the Catholic Church considers marital relations a sin; rather, it considers pre-marital relations to be sinful. So, it seems to me that the main Catholic argument for Mary remaining a virgin is that no one else could be worthy to enter the earth by the same gate as Christ, and they referred to a passage from Ezekiel. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned in this thread at some point, though I'm not positive I didn't read that in another thread instead. So, it seems like the perpetual virginity and sinlessness are separate issues.

I think you got the Ezekiel passage from another thread, but you are correct that that is their sole biblical support. When one reads the verse in context it is obvious that it has as much to do with sealing one's lips from sinful talk as it does about sealing a vagina. Given the numerous usages of gate and gates in Ezekiel, this is the one and only verse which is wrenched from its context and forced to take a meaning which assuredly never entered the mind of Ezekiel.

I agree that perpetual virginity and sinlessness should be separate issues. However, the Catholics and Orthodox express righteous indignation at the very idea that Mary could have had marital relations with Joseph, much less that those relations could have resulted in progeny, which is yet another issue. Thus, a level of sinfulness is attached only to the possibility of Mary and Joseph having marital relations.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Where do people get this stuff. The "Catholic belief in the sin if marital relations". Are you kidding me? The Catholic Church is one of the few organizations left opposing the attack on marriage and the family unit. This is nonsense! I would ask you to read the Catholic Catechism starting at paragraph 1601.

An excellent question, indeed, Where do Catholics get all their righteous indignation at the very thought that Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations? You are spot on with your reference to the Catholic Catechism, which is exactly why I raised this question. Time and time again Catholics have risen up to defend the sinlessness and purity of Mary by attacking the very idea that she and Joseph were happily married in every sense of the word. So, if marital relations are not sinful, then why in the world does it make a scintilla of difference if Mary and Joseph had them?