Mary... One more time

[Stormy]

I know there are many threads circulating on Mary and her relationship to the Catholic... but I am still seeking the truth. I know it is probably there amidst all the posts but so is much more human devotion and debate.

I will not say that there has been lies but definitely there has been misrepresentation of the truth. In one post it was presented as Dogma that Mary is our co-redeemer.

At that point, I must confess that I had to step back. I could not within myself accept the Church's decision. I was going to take it to God in prayer. For he has told me to come to the Catholic Church. He has promised that there my faith will be protected, nourished and used to his glory.

Later I learned that this idea for the fifth and final dogma about Mary was not a part of the official Church. There is in actuality a sort of voting by ballot to elect Mary to this position. How human is that? IMHO This is not of God. The Holy Spirit is over the Church. He will protect her.

Last night I prayed for understanding on this matter. I had a dream. I saw Mary before me. She was in human form... very large... and beautiful. But she was motionless and silent. Behind her was Jesus. His human form was not easy to distinguish. It was so small and faint. But the power and LOVE coming from Christ almost took my breath away. I cried with passion and wanted so much to be a part of him. I seen his hand reach up and beckon me. I was confused. I looked to Mary and she smiled. I looked back to Christ and has tears rolled down my face... I asked in a small whisper..."me?" He nodded...

I awoke still trembling.

I need help from you. I am asking that devotion not post on this thread. He has a Love for Mary that does not allow him to be objective. I have placed him on ignore just until I get a true picture of Mary and her relationship to our faith.

Please post to me only that which is the official Church revealed truth on Mary. Please do not include devotional material. I do not think that the Church will say anything infallibly that I will have trouble agreeing with for we carry the same Spirit within.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Wow, I wish I could pray and have dreams like that. You must have a lot of faith!

Later I learned that this idea for the fifth and final dogma about Mary was not a part of the official Church. There is in actuality a sort of voting by ballot to elect Mary to this position. How human is that? IMHO This is not of God. The Holy Spirit is over the Church. He will protect her.

Dogma is never declared by vote or petitioning the Vatican. The people that want this to be declared have their own opinions, but things don't work by ballot. They must come from God alone, of course.

 

[devoted]

Stormy,

Mary would never lead you from Jesus. This is something that in order to be a Catholic and a good one you are going to have to accept, devotional aside.

The dream you had you must understand, there is more than just the Holy Spirit that influences us. There are also our own thoughts and imaginations and one must be careful not to confuse that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In all of the visions of Mary, the ones that are approved by the Church as being authentic yes there are those that are trust worthy and authentic. The Church does not say that you have to believe in them and it certainly does not say that one must put faith in them. The Church clearly says that these are private revelations and our faith as been revealed through Jesus and these private revelations do not add to or change our deposit of faith in any way. YOU ARE NOT obligated to believe or 'follow' any apparition.

Now with that said, the key to knowing if any locutions, visions, apparitions, dreams, 'word of knowledge' or anything of the like is from the holy spirit and not from our own human spirit are the fruits. "By their fruits you will know them."

In all of the approved apparitions of Mary she never says anything that contradicts scripture or the revelation that has already been given to us. She does not add to change or make up anything new. She only reinforces the gospel with calls to prayer, penance, and conversions. She appears to lead us back to Jesus never appears to have anyone blocked from coming to him.

"By their fruits you will know them." If you have any thoughts about this that causes you to be led away from Jesus or think that you are being asked to be lead away, then this is not Mary doing this or the holy spirit. God would never appear to anyone in any way shape or form and ask him or her to deny Mary as intercessor nor would God appear and ask you to worship her.

Mary is a reality in the Church and in all of the people of the world's spiritual life whether or nor they believe this. Mary only prays for you and points you to Jesus.

Test the spirits and if any dreams or thoughts you have deny Mary as intercessor or if you are being lead away then it is NOT Mary or the holy spirit doing this.

Also know that only the enemy causes confusion, confusion is NOT of God. Peace is from God.

I am so sorry I feel like I opened up Pandora box. I must admit I am taken back by it. I am not use to having discussions with Catholics that do not understand this, this is not an insult to anyone. I know that I am miscommunicating this, I know that I am not wrong about this either.

 

[Stormy]

I am sorry devoted, I do not wish to hurt your feelings. I have not placed you on ignore because that would prevent me from reading your post in all the other threads of the forums. But I have heard what you have to say on this matter. I am looking for guidance and truth from the other Catholics that post.

I will not respond nor even read your post on this thread. I pray that I have not hurt you personally. That is not my intention.

 

[jukesk9]

She is not nor has she ever been proclaimed co-redeemer. There is a movement to get this done but so far has failed. People really thought if it were to be proclaimed, it would have been done so by Pope John Paul II and they really pushed for it around the end of 1999. It didn't happen then and it ain't gonna happen now. And I agree with you Stormy, the Holy Spirit is keeping this silly idea from getting proclaimed dogma.

As far as dogma goes, Mary is part of the Communion of Saints. In a nutshell, the Communion of Saints goes like this. St. Paul preaches in Romans that nothing can separate us from the powerful love of Christ--nothing, not even death. So while we may be physically dead, we will be alive with Christ. The Church doesn't teach "soul sleep." Then throughout his epistles, he speaks about the Body of Christ being one. Further, St. Paul writes when one part of the Body is honored, the rest rejoices and when one part suffers, the rest suffers.

In Hebrews, we're told we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, which in context means the saints and angels in heaven. Going on, we see in Revelations how the angels and saints deliver our prayers to the Throne. And we also know from the Bible that the angels know what's going on down on earth--they even know what's going on inside our little heads because the Bible says angels rejoice when a sinner repents.

So we take all this and look at what St. Paul writes about the prayer of a righteous person being very powerful. He urges us to pray for one another, making supplications for each other. So, how powerful do you think a prayer from an angel or saint can be?

That's where we get the biblical teaching of asking the angels and saints to pray for us. Nothing more, nothing less. Heaven has no concept of space nor time so therefore millions of prayer requests can happen all at once and the angels and saints can hear them. That's obvious from Revelations.

"5:8 Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Saints, in that context, means the faithful here on earth. They heard our prayers and took them to Jesus. Further, the Church teaches that Jesus is still the one and only mediator. He mediates the prayers of the angels and saints for they go to Jesus for us.

So, have confidence in asking Mary, the Mother of God, to pray for you to the Lord our God. God bless.

 

[Stormy]

jukesk9 : Thank you so much.
I do not have a problem with Mary... I LOVE her. I am sure that the unrest I have.... does not stem from the Church, nor from a correct perspective of our relationship to the Mother.

Can you tell me what dogma surrounds her.

What titles has she officially been given?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

jukes-

Could you shed some light on why the various pieces of devotional literature have words like "serve" Mary in them? Is this not absolutely wrong? Why is it allowed, even if it is optional?

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by Stormy
jukesk9 : Thank you so much.
I do not have a problem with Mary... I LOVE her. I am sure that the unrest I have.... does not stem from the Church, nor from a correct perspective of our relationship to the Mother.

Can you tell me what dogma surrounds her.

What titles has she officially been given?

The Church has defined two dogmas about Mary.  The first being the Immaculate Conception and the second being the Assumption, both of which glorify Christ.  VOW does a wonderful explanation on the IC.  In short, the dogma says that Mary was preserved from any stain of original sin when her parents, Joachim and Anne, conceived her.  This was so Christ could be brought into the world in a pure, clean "Ark."  We view Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant, this one carrying God the Flesh instead of God the Word as the purest of gold Ark of the Covenant did. 

The Assumption says that Mary was assumed, body and soul and by the power of God, into Heaven.  It does not define whether or not she died or was alive.  There is biblical precedence for this happening as Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven.  Early on, when tombs of saints, martyrs, etc. were found, churches and shrines were built on them.  No one found Mary's tomb and she probably was the most famous of the Early Christians.  Second, the Church interprets Revelations 12 as Mary being in Heaven.  Again, this glorifies Christ because it is an example to us of one who leads a faithful, good life.  Mary was rewarded with eternal life and stands as a hope to us that we may be made worthy of this by Jesus Christ.

Also, the Church teaches Mary was ever virgin and lived a sinless life.  The Reformers too believed this and this was never questioned until Fundamentalism emerged.  The Church has biblical backing for these teachings, too. 

Finally, as far as official titles go, here is what is listed in the Catechism:

969. "'This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and MEDIATRIX.'[LG 62.]"


She was also declared the Mother of the Church ("Behold, thy Mother) in 1965 (I think, Wols?).  Probably the two most commoned used and famous are the Mother of God and the Theotokus (which means light or God bearer.  Used a lot by our Eastern Orthodox brethren). 

In light of all this, we understand that Christ is the sole mediator for He even mediates Mary's prayers for us.   I hope this helps. 

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by s0uljah
jukes-

Could you shed some light on why the various pieces of devotional literature have words like "serve" Mary in them? Is this not absolutely wrong? Why is it allowed, even if it is optional?

Well, that's a good question.  I must say that my parish does a good job on explaining Mary's role to us and we don't have much Marian devotional literature except for like the Rosary and the Legion of Mary and stuff like that.  If I were Pope (or heck even a Deacon at my parish), I would really scrutinize literature like you're describing.  I probably wouldn't allow it.  It's harmful to blurr the lines like that.  I'm with you on this, s0uljah, I serve Christ.  Mary is my mother and I honor her and ask for her prayers.  But I serve with her. 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by jukesk9
Well, that's a good question.  I must say that my parish does a good job on explaining Mary's role to us and we don't have much Marian devotional literature except for like the Rosary and the Legion of Mary and stuff like that.  If I were Pope (or heck even a Deacon at my parish), I would really scrutinize literature like you're describing.  I probably wouldn't allow it.  It's harmful to blurr the lines like that.  I'm with you on this, s0uljah, I serve Christ.  Mary is my mother and I honor her and ask for her prayers.  But I serve with her. 

Exactly.

 

[devoted]

Legion of Mary, Knihts of the immaculata, Blue Army...all in which we give our service to Mary in order that we may serve God.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by jukesk9
I hope this helps. 

You are so kind.

All that you say is beautiful and good.

I have one more question. You say there are but two dogmas on Mary.
But the co-redeemer that has not been adopted by the church is said to be the fifth and final dogma of Mary.

It appears like I am missing a couple of other dogma of Mary. No?

 

[VOW]

To Stormy:

There's a LOT of *stuff* flying around here, and I don't blame you for being confused.

Let's get some definitions out of the way, so we can talk in the same language. These are posted in the "Frequently Asked Questions" thread at the top of the One Bread, One Body forum, and it might be useful for you to mosey around in that thread from time to time.

Here we go:

Deposit. Left by the Apostles. Includes both Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Infallible, cannot be altered, changed, added to, or subtracted from.

Dogma. Promulgated by ecumenical councils or declared by reigning Pontiff. Also infallible, also cannot be changed---but also cannot contradict Scripture, Tradition, or previous infallible statement or another dogma.

Doctrine. Explanation of some aspect of the Faith. Not infallible, can be changed, evolved, condemned, abandoned.

Discipline. Rule established by the Church to help the believer walk the straight and narrow path; includes both celibacy and not eating meat on Fridays during Lent and fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Devotion. Lowest level of Catholic belief; usually more or less up to the individual believer to practice or not. Includes 99% of all Marian practices, including the Rosary, First Fridays, and belief in apparitons of Mary such as Lourdes or Fatima.

(source: David Currie, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic)

Now, if I'm not sure which category something falls in, I "cheat" and talk about a "teaching" of the Catholic Church. However, I make a special note of what is OPTIONAL, like the devotions to Mary.

Mary herself, though, her status with God and in Heaven, is not optional. She is the Immaculate Conception, and she was Assumed into Heaven. She is the Mother of us all.

Like most converts, I had some problems with those. However, I believed the Catholic Church to be the true Church, so I just waited until the Holy Spirit finally helped me to understand what the Church taught. I CRAVED the Eucharist, and I figured that God would let me know about Mary in His own time.

The Immaculate Conception became understood when I grasped the concept of Mary being the New Eve, the Ark of the New Covenant. I think Scott Hahn explained these two teachings the best. He shows actual parallels in the Old Testament and the New Testament when describing the first Ark in the Old Testament and then descriptions used for Mary in the New Testament. The WORDING is the same. Really thought-provoking! And we know Jesus IS the New Covenant, so it makes sense that Mary would be the Ark. If you go back into the OT and read the description of the original Ark, the care into making it, the POWER that the Ark had, you can begin to understand Mary's role in Christianity.

As for the Assumption, I wrote a story on how I saw it occurring. I bumped it up, so you can read it too.

I don't want to overwhelm you. Just take baby steps. Let the Holy Spirit lead you. When you reach something that seems too confusing, just turn it all over to God. Your journey is under His guidance, remember?



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by Stormy
You are so kind.

All that you say is beautiful and good.

I have one more question. You say there are but two dogmas on Mary.
But the co-redeemer that has not been adopted by the church is said to be the fifth and final dogma of Mary.

It appears like I am missing a couple of other dogma of Mary. No?

My fault.  There are four dogmas.  The first two I listed are actually numbers 3 and 4.  I listed all four in my post.  Here they are again,

1.  Mother of God--declared by the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431

2.  Ever-Virgin--declared at the Fifth Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in 553

3.  Immaculate Conception--declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854

4.  Assumption-- declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950.

Sorry about that.  Like I said previously, the first two were accepted by the Reformers and a lot of Protestant churches still profess belief in those.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Additionally, this was all believed way back to the beginning. It simply wasnt defined as official, until the dates jukes provided. Nothing new has ever been added to the Deposit.

 

[Stormy]

I feel as if I have just past a milestone on my journey. I have no difficulty at all accepting and believing the four dogmas on Mary. These truths are not new to me. I have heard then discussed many times.

I thank you all!

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Stormy
I feel as if I have just past a milestone on my journey. I have no difficulty at all accepting and believing the four dogmas on Mary. These truths are not new to me. I have heard then discussed many times.

I thank you all!

Your welcome Stormy. Your journey is a blessing to watch.

PS

Just think, last week you were arguing with me against the Church!

 

[Preachers12]

Stormy, Peace be with you.

With reflection, study and prayer, I believe all your answers on this topic lie in one simple and very familiar prayer:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Within these words lie most all of what Catholics believe about Mary.

God Bless and stay safe.

 

[Caedmon]

What about the Coronation... is that a dogma?

 

[panterapat]

"Could you shed some light on why the various pieces of devotional literature have words like "serve" Mary in them? Is this not absolutely wrong? Why is it allowed, even if it is optional?"

Souljah-

To serve Mary is to serve Christ. Let's say that your mother is planning a birthday party for your father- You help your mother prepare for the party and SERVE her in every way to get the job done- (You know that you could never do everything yourself but you are able to assist your mother as she assists you.)

Have you served your mother or were you really serving your father because he was the motivation behind all of your work?

Actually, you have served your father THROUGH your mother. This is exactly our relationship with Mary. To be a servant of Mary is to adopt her perfect obedience to God's Will and follow in her footsteps toward Christ. You serve her because she is leading you to her Son.

In Christ through Mary,
Patrick