Mary ever virgin

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Origen (185-254) was born in Alexandria. He believed in Mary's perpetual virginity, stating: "There is no child of Mary except Jesus, according to the opinion of those who think correctly about her. "23 The same teaching is found in his Commentary on Matthew. "Those who speak thus mean to safeguard Mary's dignity in the virginity she conserved until the end, so that body chosen to serve the Word... did not know any relations with a man, after the point that the Holy Spirit came down upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowed her. "24

The Virginity of Mary

while Origine and the Protoevangelion are not the best referances, it still showes what early christians thought
a good question to ask would be, who were the first people to say that Mary was not ever virgin?
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
From: Mary: Ever Virgin


Origen


"The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Um, why is the word [perpetual] in brackets there?
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Um, why is the word [perpetual] in brackets there?
i don't know, i just did a cut and paste from that website, but when you read it you see he is saying that mary did not have relations with her husband after the birth of christ
 
Upvote 0

NewMan99

New CF: More Political, Less Charity, No Unity
Mar 20, 2005
5,642
1,009
Earth
✟18,235.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
With respect, Livindesert, perhaps you should not be so quick to dismiss the evidence from the Gospel of Luke. You have been polite and asking honest questions that deserve an answer.

Part of the issue here is that you seem to want some sort of explicit specific reference to Mary's supposed virginity (at least when it comes to what is found in the Bible), or else the Tradition itself is naturally suspect. Actually, it is a wise, good, and healthy thing to be suspicious of traditions that do not fall within your own traditional understand of Scripture - so I am not criticizing you in any way for that.

But are there not numerous examples (and I can list some if you want) of Scripture hinting at things but not explicitly stating them? And don't Christians - of all types - struggle to grasp deeper meanings that fall within traditional Christian interpretation? For one of many examples, do Christians reject the Arian (and modern-day JW) interpretation of "The Father is greater than I"? To Arians and JWs this is supposed to mean that Jesus is not Divine, but rather something less. But that interpretation does not fall within the Traditional understanding of this very mysterious thing that Jesus said. We need to delve deeper and reflect on what its possible meaning(s) might be.

So, in a similar way, we need to not only reflect on what is explitictly said in Luke between Mary and Gabriel - but also what is assumed.

As we already know, Gabriel is explicit and specific when he tells Mary that she will (FUTURE tense) bear the Son of the Most High.

And what is her response?

She asks a very profound and meaningful question that works on more than one level. She asks, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"

At first glance, this seems to be a reasonable question. At the time, she was a virgin - and therefore it would not make sense to claim that she would conceive right then and there. But Gabriel had used the future tense.

So...while she did not yet have a husband at that time...she was betrothed - and she knew she was going to soon be married. And that makes a big difference in how we are to read her response.

For if you or I would approach a young woman - a virgin - who is engaged to be married and said, "I had a vision that you will have a son" - would she ask the same question that Mary asked? No. She would assume that after her wedding day she and her husband would join in marital relations and someday have a child.

The question Mary asked only makes sense if she intended to never have sexual relations with her soon-to-be future husband.

Her question only makes sense if a vow of chastity was already assumed. In our make believe scenario a bride-to-be would never be baffled at the thought that one day she would conceive. But Mary was. Think about it and reflect upon the deeper meaning here.

It is only after Mary asks this question that she is told - explicitly - how it is that she would conceive even without ever engaging in a sexual act.

Of course, the Gospel of Luke was not written to be a medical textbook, nor did it delve into questions like Mary's sex life. But still, within the text, there are hints and deeper meanings that tell us there might be good reason to see why the Church has Traditionally viewed her as being a perpetual virgin.

For an excellent short article shedding more light on this topic - using the Book of Numbers as its focus - see this link:

The Sacred Page: A Biblical Basis For Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
Upvote 0

NewMan99

New CF: More Political, Less Charity, No Unity
Mar 20, 2005
5,642
1,009
Earth
✟18,235.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Let's be fair - he isn't accepting your interpretation of Scripture, and is asking what the earliest unambiguous statements you have from tradition are.

I agree with you that we need to be fair to our guests. That being said, people need to recognize that just because a tradition may have first been mentioned in writing at a given time, that doesn't mean the tradition itself dates from when it was first written of. A Tradition may exist for decades and even centuries even though nobody wrote of it until someone else either denied it or if a theologian wished to explore the deeper possible meanings of the Tradition. If the Proto of James is the oldest known writing expressing what it claims to be a tradition, it is highly possible the tradition pre-existed the writing. This, of course, is no proof either way that the tradition pre-existed, but we mustn't fall into the mindset that the oldest known reference means that this is when the tradition originated. Not that anybody has said this - but it bears mention just in case.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
i don't know, i just did a cut and paste from that website, but when you read it you see he is saying that mary did not have relations with her husband after the birth of christ
I don't know that he is. It looks to me like the word has been added to make unambigous what is actually a bit ambigous in what Origen actually wrote.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
I agree with you that we need to be fair to our guests. That being said, people need to recognize that just because a tradition may have first been mentioned in writing at a given time, that doesn't mean the tradition itself dates from when it was first written of. A Tradition may exist for decades and even centuries even though nobody wrote of it until someone else either denied it or if a theologian wished to explore the deeper possible meanings of the Tradition. If the Proto of James is the oldest known writing expressing what it claims to be a tradition, it is highly possible the tradition pre-existed the writing. This, of course, is no proof either way that the tradition pre-existed, but we mustn't fall into the mindset that the oldest known reference means that this is when the tradition originated. Not that anybody has said this - but it bears mention just in case.
That's all fair, but a fair starting point is to look for what we can say for sure- what solid ground do we have on which to survey the question. Late references that all assume something in passing (eg the Athanasius quote) point towards an idea that is already well established. Ones that are defending a position (eg Hiliary) point either to a position that is not well established, or to addressing a controversy that has arisen in a particular group.
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I don't know that he is. It looks to me like the word has been added to make unambigous what is actually a bit ambigous in what Origen actually wrote.
Origen (185-254)"There is no child of Mary except Jesus, according to the opinion of those who think correctly about her. "
Origen, Commentary on John
The Virginity of Mary
is that less ambigous?
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Origen (185-254)"There is no child of Mary except Jesus, according to the opinion of those who think correctly about her. "
Origen, Commentary on John
The Virginity of Mary
is that less ambigous?
Assuming that it's not taken out of context, absolutely. Thank-you.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

NewMan99

New CF: More Political, Less Charity, No Unity
Mar 20, 2005
5,642
1,009
Earth
✟18,235.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That's all fair, but a fair starting point is to look for what we can say for sure- what solid ground do we have on which to survey the question. Late references that all assume something in passing (eg the Athanasius quote) point towards an idea that is already well established. Ones that are defending a position (eg Hiliary) point either to a position that is not well established, or to addressing a controversy that has arisen in a particular group.

And that is fair too.

My only point is that we mustn't draw too many conclusions about the origin of any tradition based upon when it first appears in writing.

For Tradition and Scripture are not of the same form. Scripture - and indeed any kind of writing (e.g. the writings of the ECFs) is but the recording of bits and pieces of information. That is its form. Tradition, on the other hand, is the living experience of the Church. That is its form. Both express Truths (although Protestants, of course, question the Truths of certain - but not all - Traditions). So we cannot assume that the recording of bits and pieces of information tells us when the Church first experienced it.

Here is what I'd like to see avoided in this thread: the conclusion that the first known writing about the PVM dating back to the mid (or late) 2nd century means therefore that it was either invented out of thin air or is at least highly suspect. By the same token, others (Catholics) cannot claim that the Proto of James "proves" that the PVM was "always believed by the Church." The dating of a given writing can neither prove nor disprove either conclusion.

I happen to believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin, but I base that on other things...some Biblical and some Traditional.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
seems very clear to me,
Didn't I just agree that it is?

can you show me anyone in the early church, other then some gnostic heretics, who did not believe that Mary was ever virgin?
I haven't tried to find such, and I'm trying to push a particular conclusion - I'm following the thread as an interesting discussion of what data is out there. It's actually a question on which I'm agnostic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
And that is fair too.

My only point is that we mustn't draw too many conclusions about the origin of any tradition based upon when it first appears in writing.

For Tradition and Scripture are not of the same form. Scripture - and indeed any kind of writing (e.g. the writings of the ECFs) is but the recording of bits and pieces of information. That is its form. Tradition, on the other hand, is the living experience of the Church. That is its form. Both express Truths (although Protestants, of course, question the Truths of certain - but not all - Traditions). So we cannot assume that the recording of bits and pieces of information tells us when the Church first experienced it.

Here is what I'd like to see avoided in this thread: the conclusion that the first known writing about the PVM dating back to the mid (or late) 2nd century means therefore that it was either invented out of thin air or is at least highly suspect. By the same token, others (Catholics) cannot claim that the Proto of James "proves" that the PVM was "always believed by the Church." The dating of a given writing can neither prove nor disprove either conclusion..
:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Didn't I just agree that it is?


I haven't tried to find such, and I'm trying to push a particular conclusion - I'm following the thread as an interesting discussion of what data is out there. It's actually a question on which I'm agnostic.
i am sorry if i seemed too harsh, it has been a looooong week for me, and i have not been doing very well
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Livindesert

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2005
2,314
59
✟2,834.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Origen (185-254)"There is no child of Mary except Jesus, according to the opinion of those who think correctly about her. "
Origen, Commentary on John
The Virginity of Mary
is that less ambigous?

That's a little better :thumbsup: but I am not looking for info on the claims that Mary never had children after Jesus, she could have been barren other than when the holy spirit came upon her.

I am looking for a ECF saying she is an ever virgin not just that she did not have anyother children accept Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Livindesert

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2005
2,314
59
✟2,834.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
With respect, Livindesert, perhaps you should not be so quick to dismiss the evidence from the Gospel of Luke. You have been polite and asking honest questions that deserve an answer.

Part of the issue here is that you seem to want some sort of explicit specific reference to Mary's supposed virginity (at least when it comes to what is found in the Bible), or else the Tradition itself is naturally suspect. Actually, it is a wise, good, and healthy thing to be suspicious of traditions that do not fall within your own traditional understand of Scripture - so I am not criticizing you in any way for that.

But are there not numerous examples (and I can list some if you want) of Scripture hinting at things but not explicitly stating them? And don't Christians - of all types - struggle to grasp deeper meanings that fall within traditional Christian interpretation? For one of many examples, do Christians reject the Arian (and modern-day JW) interpretation of "The Father is greater than I"? To Arians and JWs this is supposed to mean that Jesus is not Divine, but rather something less. But that interpretation does not fall within the Traditional understanding of this very mysterious thing that Jesus said. We need to delve deeper and reflect on what its possible meaning(s) might be.

So, in a similar way, we need to not only reflect on what is explitictly said in Luke between Mary and Gabriel - but also what is assumed.

As we already know, Gabriel is explicit and specific when he tells Mary that she will (FUTURE tense) bear the Son of the Most High.

And what is her response?

She asks a very profound and meaningful question that works on more than one level. She asks, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"

At first glance, this seems to be a reasonable question. At the time, she was a virgin - and therefore it would not make sense to claim that she would conceive right then and there. But Gabriel had used the future tense.

So...while she did not yet have a husband at that time...she was betrothed - and she knew she was going to soon be married. And that makes a big difference in how we are to read her response.

For if you or I would approach a young woman - a virgin - who is engaged to be married and said, "I had a vision that you will have a son" - would she ask the same question that Mary asked? No. She would assume that after her wedding day she and her husband would join in marital relations and someday have a child.

The question Mary asked only makes sense if she intended to never have sexual relations with her soon-to-be future husband.

Her question only makes sense if a vow of chastity was already assumed. In our make believe scenario a bride-to-be would never be baffled at the thought that one day she would conceive. But Mary was. Think about it and reflect upon the deeper meaning here.

It is only after Mary asks this question that she is told - explicitly - how it is that she would conceive even without ever engaging in a sexual act.

Of course, the Gospel of Luke was not written to be a medical textbook, nor did it delve into questions like Mary's sex life. But still, within the text, there are hints and deeper meanings that tell us there might be good reason to see why the Church has Traditionally viewed her as being a perpetual virgin.

For an excellent short article shedding more light on this topic - using the Book of Numbers as its focus - see this link:

The Sacred Page: A Biblical Basis For Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

God's Peace,

NewMan


That makes more sense. I will have to check out the Bible passages tonight. But I do wonder why they added "she did not have relations until Jesus was born" in Matthew why not just say "and she never had relations with joseph"?
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
That makes more sense. I will have to check out the Bible passages tonight. But I do wonder why they added "she did not have relations until Jesus was born" in Matthew why not just say "and she never had relations with joseph"?
i think it has more to do with the structure of greek then a time table on when relations happened
 
Upvote 0