Mary cannot be Queen. (2)

[gadesa]

Remember as Christian we have to follow the Bible as our guide and nowhere in the Bible do they refer to Mary as such.she is simply the mother of Jesus and if read the Gospel one find out that she had other kids after Jesus.How is she the Queen of heaven?

 

[Incariol]

Remember as Christian we have to follow the Bible as our guide and nowhere in the Bible do they refer to Mary as such.

Except for the part where she is in Heaven, wearing a crown, and gives birth to the king, amirite?

1And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman(A) clothed with(B) the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

she is simply the mother of Jesus

Which makes her the literal Mother of God. Your use of "simply" in that sentence is mind-boggling. Such a casual attitude toward the mighty mystery of the Incarnation, and our salvation.

and if read the Gospel one find out that she had other kids after Jesus.

No, it doesn't say that anywhere.

How is she the Queen of heaven?

She is the mother of the King, and she is wearing a crown.

 

[Bryne]

How is she the Queen of heaven?

Because her son is the King of Heaven. That makes her the Queen Mother.

 

[Incariol]

‪Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above May Crowning Song‬‏ - YouTube



Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our Life, our Sweetness, and our Hope.
To Thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To Thee do we send up our sighs mourning
and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
Thine Eyes of Mercy toward us,
and after this our exile show us the
Blessed Fruit of thy Womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us O Holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

 

[WarriorAngel]

He got that right. ...and goes on to prove it with the comment below.




Absolutely non-Scriptural....Mary is not our advocate....this teaching is a pastiche of:-

Ephesians 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

Hebrews 10: 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

The Queen Mother of Solomon was an advocate in times of need..and pl sought her out to go to the King.


JUST AS you seek out friends to pray on your behalf to Jesus, we seek out His Mother to pray for us and go to Her Son on our behalf.

 

[WarriorAngel]

calling Mary the queen of heaven is not Biblical.The Queen of Heaven is Pagan in origin and it is a result of Roman paganism into Christianity.There is only one mediator between God and man it is the man CHrist Jesus.1 timothy 2:5

Only Jesus could die for our atonement, as such being the only Mediator.
That does not mean we are not all intercessors for one another.

 

[gadesa]

and if read the Gospel one find out that she had other kids after Jesus.
No, it doesn't say that anywhere.
Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?" [Matt. 13:55-56; RSV]
(Douai-Rheims) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.
Bible VersionsNASRevelationRevelation 12
Revelation 12 (New American Standard)View In My Bible

Strongs NumbersFootnotes (a-z)Cross references (#)One verse per line

The Woman, Israel woman in revelation = a church system (a bride)
1 A great sign appeared in heaven : a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars ; 2 and she was with child ; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
The Red Dragon, Satan
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven : and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

The Male Child, Christ
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron ; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. please explain the
underline

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
i think the woman they talk about may be representing Israel which gave birth to Christ and then the subsequent persecution of the church through the centuries, because in the later chapters they also talk about another woman the harlot of Babylon

 

[Bryne]

Perhaps the brothers mentioned were Joseph's sons from a previous marriage. Perhaps they were cousins. (the greek supports this translation). Perhaps they were also sons of Mary. One cannot say for sure based on what is stated in Scripture.

The Bible does not say, specifically, that Mary gave birth to other children after giving birth to Christ.

Personally, I am undecided on this issue. I think it is possible that she had no other children, and also possible that she did have other children.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The term in Greek used means close relative. It could mean step brothers and sisters or COUSINS.

There are a few things, to which makes no sense in taking it literally... such as when Mary is standing beside her sister Mary.. ?
No, they were most likely sister in laws.
As such Mary of Alpheus was a SIL.
Mary of Alphues was the mother of James who was called the brother of Jesus and so on...

Cousins was most likely how the Greek term was used and not siblings.

Mary was an only child, and her mother was Ann who conceived in old age. We know this through Tradition of course. Tradition helps us comprehend the understandings of scriptures.
That aside....the fact Mary stood by her sister Mary makes no sense if we suppose her mother decided to name both daughters Mary?
I think not.
And i know not...being Mary the Mother of our Lord did not have siblings.

 

[justinangel]

calling Mary the queen of heaven is not Biblical.The Queen of Heaven is Pagan in origin and it is a result of Roman paganism into Christianity.There is only one mediator between God and man it is the man CHrist Jesus.1 timothy 2:5

Many athiests, Muslims, and Jews believe that our invocation of Jesus as divine King is derived from pagan origin and influence, as well as our belief in the Lord's virgin birth and resurrection.

Paul is saying that Jesus is the one mediator between God and man for us all, both Jew and gentile, by having paid our ransom from the captivity of sin with his blood. He is not saying that Jesus is the "only" mediator in the general sense of the word. If he did, he would have used the Greek word monos instead of heis. Similarly, when Paul says "There is one (heis) God" he means there is one God for us all. He is not emphasizing that there is only one God. Thus in vv. 1-4 he acknowledges that there are factual mediators (we the faithful) who should offer up their "prayers, supplications, petitions, and thanksgiving" to God for the conversion of sinners. Paul would find no fault in our asking Mary to pray for us in heaven.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

Pax Christu
J.A.

 

[justinangel]

Perhaps the brothers mentioned were Joseph's sons from a previous marriage. Perhaps they were cousins. (the greek supports this translation). Perhaps they were also sons of Mary. One cannot say for sure based on what is stated in Scripture.

The Bible does not say, specifically, that Mary gave birth to other children after giving birth to Christ.

Personally, I am undecided on this issue. I think it is possible that she had no other children, and also possible that she did have other children.

Therefore, we must sometimes rely on extra-biblical sources to know the truth: the preaching of the gospel by the apostles as transmitted to us by way of tradition and the oral tradition or historical testimonies. Scripture is materially sufficient but formally insufficient as a medium of divine revelation. Much of the written word is ambiguous or implicit, such as the fact there are two wills or minds - one divine and the other human - in the person of Jesus. The final authority to settle these questions rests with the authentic universal teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Church.

"It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us."
Acts 15, 28

Pax Christu
J.A.

 

[Incariol]

and if read the Gospel one find out that she had other kids after Jesus.
No, it doesn't say that anywhere.
Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?" [Matt. 13:55-56; RSV]
(Douai-Rheims) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.
Bible VersionsNASRevelationRevelation 12
Revelation 12 (New American Standard)View In My Bible

Were you going to make a point?

Strongs NumbersFootnotes (a-z)Cross references (#)One verse per line

The Woman, Israel woman in revelation = a church system (a bride)
1 A great sign appeared in heaven : a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars ; 2 and she was with child ; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
The Red Dragon, Satan
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven : and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

Israel didn't give birth to Jesus. Sorry.

The Male Child, Christ
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron ; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. please explain the
underline

No.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
i think the woman they talk about may be representing Israel which gave birth to Christ and then the subsequent persecution of the church through the centuries, because in the later chapters they also talk about another woman the harlot of Babylon

That's nice.

 

[gadesa]

Incariol
twelve stars on her head = the twelve tribes of Israel or the twelve apostles
woman in the wilderness persecuting by satan = christians persecuted during pagan Rome and the middle ages

Israel did give birth to Jesus after all he was a Jew
if that was referring to Mary, when did she spend 1260 days in the desert?
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
you see brother the text say the rest of her children,if that was referring to Mary,how come you guys say she was a perpetual virgin,therefore its not Mary they talking about,the woman is a symbol for Israel/and the early church.

God also refers to Israel as a “Woman” (HER) as it represents the Old Testament Church that brought forth the Man child (Jesus Christ) in Revelation 12
Hosea 2:11 “I will also cause all HER mirth to cease, HER feast days, HER new moons, and HER sabbaths, and all HER solemn feasts.

Jeremiah 3:1-25 “…If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? ...but you have played the HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD. 2 …you have polluted the land with your WHOREDOMS and with your wickedness. 3 …you hadst a harlot'S FOREHEAD, you refusedst to be ashamed… 6 The LORD said also unto me… Have you seen that which backsliding Israel has done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there has played the HARLOT… 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed ADULTERY I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the HARLOT also… 20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have you dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.”

Revelation 17:1-3 Come hither; I will show unto you the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:.......saw a WOMAN sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy… 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON the great, the MOTHER OF HARLOTS and abominations of the earth.”

so you see brother when read in context they are not talking about literal people but churches.

 

[Incariol]

Israel did give birth to Jesus after all he was a Jew
if that was referring to Mary, when did she spend 1260 days in the desert?
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
you see brother the text say the rest of her children,if that was referring to Mary,how come you guys say she was a perpetual virgin,therefore its not Mary they talking about,the woman is a symbol for Israel/and the early church.

Yes, and Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians, Christ gave her to us in that role just before the crucifixion.

 

[gadesa]

where do you get that from the bible? Abraham is the Father of Faith.nowhere in the Bible is Mary referred as such.this doctrine is Church tradition brother not from the Bible.

 

[Incariol]

where do you get that from the bible? Abraham is the Father of Faith.nowhere in the Bible is Mary referred as such.this doctrine is Church tradition brother not from the Bible.

When Jesus saw his mother,
and the disciple whom he loved standing near,
he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!"
And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

John 19:26-27

Looks like the Bible is rather blatant about it. Though saying it is Church tradition isn't a point against it by any means.
​

 

[washedagain]

The term in Greek used means close relative. It could mean step brothers and sisters or COUSINS.

There are a few things, to which makes no sense in taking it literally... such as when Mary is standing beside her sister Mary.. ?
No, they were most likely sister in laws.
As such Mary of Alpheus was a SIL.
Mary of Alphues was the mother of James who was called the brother of Jesus and so on...

Cousins was most likely how the Greek term was used and not siblings.

Mary was an only child, and her mother was Ann who conceived in old age. We know this through Tradition of course. Tradition helps us comprehend the understandings of scriptures.
That aside....the fact Mary stood by her sister Mary makes no sense if we suppose her mother decided to name both daughters Mary?
I think not.
And i know not...being Mary the Mother of our Lord did not have siblings.

Several things...

First... if Adolphos means other than blood sibling (which it can) in this verse, why is it that the Catholic translators did not clarify upon translation the true meaning and intent as to which they think the word was used.... IE used the word kin or cousins in their translation?

second... The writings in the NT that talk of JEsus' brothers AND sisters was ORIGINALLY written in Greek and the Greek does have a word for cousin... if that is what the NT writers intent was (that these brothers and sisters where actual cousins) they would have written these words
female cousin = ξαδέλφη (ksaTHElfee - th like in the word the)
male cousin = ξάδελφος (KSAthelfos - th like in the word the)
cousins = ξαδέλφια (ksaTHElfia - th like in the word the)

As evidenced by other scriptures that are correctly translated from the original that means exactly what it says... cousin.


My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

1. 
   And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
   (in Context) (Whole Chapter)
2. 
   And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.

The word Adolphos was NOT used. God knows what he is doing and what he wishes to reveal without ambiguity.

Thirdly... if the Catholic Church wishes to LOOK consistent... they must maintain that Mary, Martha as well as Lazarus were not brothers and sisters either as their parents are not mentioned in the context AT ALL and the same word, adolphos is used.... the same being with several of the apostles such as, Simon and Andrew, James and John, etc.

 

[gadesa]

1. "Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." [Jeremiah 7:17-18]

In this section of Jeremiah, God is telling Israel why He is about to physically destroy them as a nation. God is acting much like a Prosecutor who is informing the accused as to the charges against them. Notice that God is very angry that these people are preparing to worship the Queen of Heaven. He is saying that this worship of the Queen of Heaven is "provoking" Him to anger!

2. "As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?"

The question, then, is, who is this Queen of Heaven which the Israelites were worshipping, that provoked God to such anger? Fortunately, Jewish historical records tell us exactly what this Queen of Heaven was that so angered God.

First, let us examine the ancient Queen of Heaven. Most of this information is taken from Alexander Hislop's book, "The Two Babylons", 1917. Hislop traces the Babylonian worship of the Queen of Heaven back to the days following the death of Nimrod. The dating of this event is not known exactly, but seems to date 400+ years after the flood. After Nimrod's death, his wife, Semiramis, was determined to retain her power and wealth. She concocted the story that Nimrod's death was for the salvation of mankind. Nimrod was touted as "the woman's promised seed, Zero-ashta, who was destined to bruise the serpent's head, and in so doing, was to have his own heel bruised." (p. 58-59)

The Queen of Heaven has nothing to do with Mary ,but is the Catholic Church action of bringing paganism into Christianity.Just like people praying to statues, confessing sins to Popes, priests and a whole bunch of other errors.

 

[justinangel]

Several things...
First... if Adolphos means other than blood sibling (which it can) in this verse, why is it that the Catholic translators did not clarify upon translation the true meaning and intent as to which they think the word was used.... IE used the word kin or cousins in their translation?

In the commentaries of Catholic Bibles it is noted that "brother" and "sister" do not necessarily refer to siblings in ancient semitic usage. Translators like Jerome kept these words that were originally spoken by the Jews in the New Testament. Catholics had indisputably known by then that Mary remained a virgin, so there was no reason to clarify anything. In response to Protestant objections in modern time, commentaries are needed to reaffirm the traditional Catholic positions on many matters of faith.

second... The writings in the NT that talk of JEsus' brothers AND sisters was ORIGINALLY written in Greek and the Greek does have a word for cousin... if that is what the NT writers intent was (that these brothers and sisters where actual cousins) they would have written these words
female cousin = ξαδέλφη (ksaTHElfee - th like in the word the)
male cousin = ξάδελφος (KSAthelfos - th like in the word the)
cousins = ξαδέλφια (ksaTHElfia - th like in the word the)

As evidenced by other scriptures that are correctly translated from the original that means exactly what it says... cousin.

My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

1. 
   And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
   (in Context) (Whole Chapter)
2. 
   And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.

The word Adolphos was NOT used. God knows what he is doing and what he wishes to reveal without ambiguity.

The authors of the gospels who wrote their texts in Greek decided not to incorporate the Greek word for cousin in the voice of the speakers who were not Greek, but Jewish. Mark cites Jews who ask: "Is he not the brother (ach) of James and Joses, and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters (achoth) here with us?" (6:3). In Hebrew and Aramaic there is no word for "cousin", so these Jews would have used the words "brother" and "sister" instead. Mark preserves the original idiomatic forms of expression that were in usage among the Jews in his gospel.

Naturally when Paul addressed the Greek speaking Colossians he would have used the Greek word for cousin. He wouldn't have if he wrote this letter in Hebrew or Aramaic to the Jewish community in Palestine (cf. Col 4:10).

Finally, when the angel Gabriel spoke to Mary at the Annunciation, he would have used her mother language, Aramaic, which has no word for cousin. Luke apparently wrote his gospel in the Greek, but Mary was not Greek. So we read with more accuracy in the New American (Catholic) Bible: "And behold, Elizabeth, your relative (cousin) has also conceived a son in her old age." (1:36). The New King James Version of the Protestant Bible also has the word "relative" in this verse, whereas the KJV has "cousin", which the angel could not have used when speaking to Mary in Aramaic.

Thirdly... if the Catholic Church wishes to LOOK consistent... they must maintain that Mary, Martha as well as Lazarus were not brothers and sisters either as their parents are not mentioned in the context AT ALL and the same word, adolphos is used.... the same being with several of the apostles such as, Simon and Andrew, James and John, etc.

These people were definitely followers of Jesus, so adolphos can be used. Paul called his fellow Christians "brothers" and "sisters".

Pax Christu
J.A.

 

[washedagain]

=justinangel;58099533]In the commentaries of Catholic Bibles it is noted that "brother" and "sister" do not necessarily refer to siblings in ancient semitic usage

.

Yes, I know... I acknowledged that. Doesn't address my point.

Translators like Jerome kept these words that were originally spoken by the Jews in the New Testament.

They spoke greek. If God meant cousin or kin by using the word adalpho, the proper translation into another language would be cousin or kin in latin and later other languages as to not be ambiguous... but they didn't... HS moment perhaps?

Catholics had indisputably known by then that Mary remained a virgin,

Proof please.

so there was no reason to clarify anything.

Of course there is ALWAYS a reason to be clear.

In response to Protestant objections in modern time, commentaries are needed to reaffirm the traditional Catholic positions on many matters of faith.

We understand the traditional Catholic position. We don't need to seek their counsel again.. we are disputing it!

The authors of the gospels who wrote their texts in Greek decided not to incorporate the Greek word for cousin in the voice of the speakers who were not Greek, but Jewish. Mark cites Jews who ask: "Is he not the brother (ach) of James and Joses, and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters (achoth) here with us?" (6:3).

They spoke Aramaic and it was written in greek. You have no point.

In Hebrew and Aramaic there is no word for "cousin", so these Jews would have used the words "brother" and "sister" instead.

This is regardless... they WROTE in greek and KNEW that there IS a word for cousin and would have used it if that is the truth.

Mark preserves the original idiomatic forms of expression that were in usage among the Jews in his gospel.

If they were cousins, they would have written cousins. This is not rocket science.

Naturally when Paul addressed the Greek speaking Colossians he would have used the Greek word for cousin. He wouldn't have if he wrote this letter in Hebrew or Aramaic to the Jewish community in Palestine (cf. Col 4:10).

Yea no kidding... because he was being clear. Goes to show that the writers of Jesus brothers and sisters would have been clear as well.

Finally, when the angel Gabriel spoke to Mary at the Annunciation, he would have used her mother language, Aramaic, which has no word for cousin.

So?

Luke apparently wrote his gospel in the Greek, but Mary was not Greek.

So?

So we read with more accuracy in the New American (Catholic) Bible: "And behold, Elizabeth, your relative (cousin) has also conceived a son in her old age." (1:36).

LOL.... why not translated as sister... after all, it has more than one meaning. You still have yet to make your point. To be consistant with the Jewish idioms that you are expousing.... it would have been written the word adalphas

The New King James Version of the Protestant Bible also has the word "relative" in this verse, whereas the KJV has "cousin", which the angel could not have used when speaking to Mary in Aramaic.

And further proving my point! When it was TRANSLATED into GREEK... the word cousin or relative was used instead of the ambiguous word adalphos or adalphas.

These people were definitely followers of Jesus, so adolphos can be used. Paul called his fellow Christians "brothers" and "sisters".

So you don't think these apostles were actual brothers?