Mary as mediatrix?

[kisstheson]

Thanks! Its not every day I get applaus around here.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Exactly! New Christians are tripped up by the Trinity, the Eucharist, and many other difficult articles of the Catholic Faith. I applaud kisstheson for taking the time to continue discussing what is obviously a difficult subject for her, spiritually and emotionally. There is a time and a place to learn about everything, and just because a thing is difficult to understand does not mean it it not worthwhile to learn about. Everything that is said of Mary can be said of the Church as a whole, and thus to some extent of ourselves and our relationship with the Father. May the Holy Spirit enlighten our minds, and lift our hearts!

Indeed!! Great Post!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I just wanted to say, that if anyone is struggling with these ideas about Mary, it really helps to pray when I was in my "transition stage" (lol) from Protestant to Catholic, the Catholic concept of Mary was problematic for me. Then I just started praying that God would help me with this, and I also tried praying the Rosary.. it was praying the Rosary that really changed how I feel about her. I felt so much peace, and I got the impression that both Jesus and Mary were listening to me together. I realized that there is no competition between them at all. When we honour Mary, we honour Jesus.
And although it's very possible to come to Jesus without praying to Mary, she always wants to lead us closer to Her Son..and she has a special place in God's Kingdom. She is our Mother and loves us very much; wants to see us saved. Even if we don't pray to her, she still wants to help us and intercede for us.
The best thing to do is to pray about all this, and maybe talk to a priest.
God bless

 

[thereselittleflower]

Right!

kisstheson, no, it is not what we are saying. We are not saying that everytime you pray, you can only pray to Mary.

We can pray to the Father, to the Son, to the Holy Spirit directly. We can pray to Mary and the Saints directly.

Saying that Mary is Mediatrix takes nothing away from this. It simply is to desribe Mary's relationship to us and Christ in our salvation. Whether you every pray to Mary or not is not the issue. You don't have to pray to Mary ever outside the prayers that are given in Mass.

Saying that Mary is Mediatrix means that regardless of whether we go to her directly or not, she is always assisting us with her prayers and with the graces God gives us. For many, if not most, this is something that is invisible to them. All who come to God come with Mary's assistance whether they have awareness of this or not.

Does this help?

 

[thereselittleflower]

I pray that soon The Church will get rid of those confusing and misleading terms that the OP referenced. They only serve to confuse and mislead. They are a serious obstacle to many who are sincerely seeking to follow Christ and seeking to find His Church.

May the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Yours in Christ.

I pray not! They are no more misleading that callilng Mary the Mother of God. Should we get rid of that too?

 

[thereselittleflower]

I pray that Catholics will actually get off their butts and be catechised so as to understand the terminology which the Church uses.

AMEN TO THAT!

 

[thereselittleflower]

No not everyone comes to Jesus through Mary, but those who do come to Jesus because that is where she points them.

Not everyone comes to Jesus by consciously going through Mary. But the Church does teach that Mary is involved even for those who have no knowledge of her involvement.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church would ever state that the resurection is symbolic, but if it should, the faithful of the Church are also infallible and it would not stand.

First, the Church would never teach such a thing.

Second, the faithful are not infallible. The charism of infalliblity rests with the Magesterium alone which is occupied by the Bishops of the Church.

I trust in Jesus when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. The Holy Spirit would not allow such an error to be taught.

Amen.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think one problem that many people might have (especially Protestants) is the idea that Mary offers us assistance to come to Jesus. It might seem at first like she is a mediator between people and God in the same way that Jesus is the mediator between us and the Father. But her role is somewhat different. In my understanding (and I may be wrong..) she's not a "bridge" between us and Jesus, but someone who brings us to Him. And the graces that He pours out upon the world are in many cases handed out by her, not because He needs help, but because this is her role..this is what she was created to be. Mary is united with God in heaven, and she is "in Christ", like we are. God is love. She is united with love..in the Holy Spirit.. she is full of grace, and full of His love. She demonstrates this love by helping us. In this way, she glorifies God. This is also how the Saints in heaven glorify God when they intercede for us.. by loving us, and praying for us, they are proclaiming the power of His love and Resurrection..they are living out their purpose for existence.
yes, God could do everything by Himself. But He has chosen to use people. He uses us, and He uses Mary and the Saints in Heaven, because they have freely offered themselves to Him.

 

[CathNancy]

First, the Church would never teach such a thing.

Second, the faithful are not infallible. The charism of infalliblity rests with the Magesterium alone which is occupied by the Bishops of the Church.



Amen.

Actually TLF this is not true, the faithful as a whole cannot err in matters of faith and morals. This is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.


91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54
92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55 93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56

Now obviously this is the faithful as a whole and not as the individual.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yes...I do believe this Cath. But when I hear she's the Tree of Life in Jerusalem, that all graces comes through her, we have to come to Jesus through Mary I am outraged. I can't take it when people pratically put another person almost on equal level with the Son of God.

Your outrage is simply misplaced and based on conceptions produced by protestant teaching at odds with the apostolic faith. You are looking at Catholicism becaues you realize that you are missing something the apostles gave to the Church that you cannot find as a protestant. The fulness of truth.

Mary is properly called the Tree of Life because she bore the fruit of life which is Jesus. This is synbolic. this is to say the same thing as Jesus being the fruit of her womb.

To see the symbolism of the Tree of Life being applicable only to Jesus is to contrue it much to narrowly, as protetants construe the term "prayer" much too narrowly.

The Catholic Church is full of symbolism. What is important is to try to understand what the Catholic Church means by the symbolism She uses instead of forcing a protestant viewpoint onto the Catholic symbolic use of titles.

In Revelation 22:2, the Tree of Life is NOT the Lamb of Revelation 22:1.

The Lamb is Jesus, so the Tree of Life has to be someone other than Jesus.

Look at Revelation 22:1

Rev 22:1¶And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
​

Jesus, "the Lamb" is with the throne of God (the Father), proceeding out from whom is the pure river of water of life - symbolic of the Holy Spirit and what the Holy Spirit brings us.

The Tree of life comes up in the next verse, a ways away from and lower than the throne of God and of the Lamb.

So the Tree of Life cannot be referring to the Lamb, Jesus.

So the Tree of Life has to be referring to someone else.


The ancient Church called Mary the Tree of Life. Rev 22:2 says:

Rev 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
​

Again, the tree of life here is not Jesus. We have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit accounted for in verse 1. So the Tree of Life is not part of the Divine Godhead, the Trinity.

That means it can only be part of God's creation.

Who else can be the tree of life here?

Obviously the only one it can be is Mary.

JESUS is the Tree of Life. His cross is the Tree of Life.

So even here you have two things being the Tree of Life.

One is Jesus,

The other is the Cross.

If only Jesus is the Tree of Life, how can His cross be the Tree of Life as well?

See, this symbolism is not used exclusively of anyone or anything, but only in particular contexts. Thus, Mary is also the Tree of Life for she bore the Fruit of Life, Jesus.


That this was understood by the Early Church, we see this Byzantium icon in more modern artworck of "Mary Tree of Life":

http://www.catholiccompany.com/images/150px/2022671.jpg

[/quote]
HE is the living Vine. HIS leafs are for the healing of the nations.[/quote]

This is simply a protestant perspective.

As I demonstrated above, the LAMB is Jesus in Rev 22:1-2, not the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is someone else, depicted as lessor than the Godhead depicted in verse 1. It is not Jesus being depicted here as the Tree of Life, and so it is not His leaves but someone else's that are for the healing of the nations.

That someone else can only reasonably be Mary. She is the highest of all created beings. None else can compare.

Grace and truth come trough Jesus Christ.

Yes and because of this, grace comes through Mary by God's design.

From HIM we all have received grace upon grace. Its all right there in the gospel of John.

Yes, ultimately this is true. But it is also true these graces reach us through the cooperation of Mary, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, the Mother of God. These are not exclusive teachings, but are supportive of each other.

 

[BAFRIEND]

And the word of God comes to us through the Church in Her Sacred Traditions, both orally and in writing, not just through scripture alone which is easily misunderstood by those who reject the fulness of truth presented by the Catholic Church.


To diminish Mary's role in our salvation and redemption is contrary to Church teaching and reveals a failure to understand the esential truths of the Catholic Church regarding Mary.


Tell me, is Mary the New Eve or not? What does the Church teach about Mary being the New Eve?

Sorry, I believe that I do not need Mary in the role of salvation. The Church states that there is no coredeemer, and so backs me. Therefore, I am not diminishing her role. And I do understand the essential truths of the Catholic Church regarding Mary: 1) Jesus is the sole mediator, 2) Blessed Mary is His mother, 3) We ask the saints to pray for us- we do not pray to the Saints. 4) no title bestowed upon Mary that takes away the effacy of Christ as the only redeemer.

As to the latter, there are many titles for Bl. Mary but on a subjective level one can take a title to the level of idolotry. You may believe that you in fact, through your devotion are on a higher plain or more enlightened than I and bestowed greater gifts than I for your devotion- but I doubt that is the case just as I doubt that because protestants believe they have the truth over Mother Church, that they do.

You state that I diminish Mary's role, while in fact I do not. I honor her role and in the proper context.

You state that you need to be careful about what you believe as you will be held accountable. In my opinion you cannot see past your pride on this matter.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Actually TLF this is not true, the faithful as a whole cannot err in matters of faith and morals. This is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.


91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54
92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55 93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56

Now obviously this is the faithful as a whole and not as the individual.

God Bless,
Nancy

Nancy, this simply says that there will always be faithful who will not be in error in their beliefs. That is at least because some of the faithful are included in the Magesterium. So since the Magesterium cannot err, there will always be those occupying the teaching of the Magesterium and so there will always be those who are faithful and do not err.

This does not mean that most will not err. Just that ALL will not err.

And it does not mean that laity has the charism of infalliblity.

One only has to look at the entire Arian affair to understand that most of the Church can be in error. Most of the Bishops and laity followed after Arius. If the way these words of the Church are used is correct, then the Trinitarian affirmation of the council of Nicea is wrong and Arius was right, as the majority sided with Arius.

This is not an issue of majority which is what many try to make of this. The Council of Nicea is proof of this.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

(about the Tree of Life) I never saw it that way, TLF that's interesting.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think the reason Mary is involved in our salvation, is because it is through her obedience to God that the Incarnation happened...
and today, she intercedes for us in prayer. Perhaps she prays for our salvation.. this makes her involved in it.. although of course she's not the one who saves (redeems, and forgives of sin) ; only Jesus can do that.

None of this makes Mary "coredeemer". Even calling her Co-Redemptrix doesn't make her a "coredeemer" in the way we commonly understand that term. One can be involved in salvation, and in redemption, without actually doing the redeeming/saving. For example, every time we pray for sinners, we become involved in their salvation.. even though only God can save.

 

[Lady Bug]

This may not be related but I'll give it a shot. I can't read like all 18 pages lol.

To come think of it, why do you think God chose Mary of all women to bear Jesus? God didn't just choose any woman. But anyway...

another confession: the Marian beliefs are another hurdle for me I gotta long way to go...

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry, I believe that I do not need Mary in the role of salvation. The Church states that there is no coredeemer, and so backs me. Therefore, I am not diminishing her role. And I do understand the essential truths of the Catholic Church regarding Mary: 1) Jesus is the sole mediator, 2) Blessed Mary is His mother, 3) We ask the saints to pray for us- we do not pray to the Saints. 4) no title bestowed upon Mary that takes away the effacy of Christ as the only redeemer.

As to the latter, there are many titles for Bl. Mary but on a subjective level one can take a title to the level of idolotry. You may believe that you in fact, through your devotion are on a higher plain or more enlightened than I and bestowed greater gifts than I for your devotion- but I doubt that is the case just as I doubt that because protestants believe they have the truth over Mother Church, that they do.

You state that I diminish Mary's role, while in fact I do not. I honor her role and in the proper context.

You state that you need to be careful about what you believe as you will be held accountable. In my opinion you cannot see past your pride on this matter.

BA, there is no point in continuing to argue this with you. Ignoring all that has been posted from Popes and Church teaching will apparently not give any room for pause in the denouncment of these teachings of the Church, a denouncement which rests on claiming they are not teachings of the Church yet for which no valid proof has been offered.

My recommendation is if it is too hard to accept the teaching of the Popes and Church on this mater it is better to keep silent rather than fight against it.


It takes humility to reconginze one needs the Mother of God to go with them and keep safe for them all the graces God has given them. DeMontfort warns us how those strong and might in the faith have fallen becaues they believed they did not need Mary and that they could keep themselves the graces God had given them. God instead, because of their pride, allowed satan to steal these graces away and great was their fall.

 

[thereselittleflower]

(about the Tree of Life) I never saw it that way, TLF that's interesting.

You're very welcome Monica. I am glad you see it.

 

[Lady Bug]

Sorry, I believe that I do not need Mary in the role of salvation. The Church states that there is no coredeemer, and so backs me. Therefore, I am not diminishing her role. And I do understand the essential truths of the Catholic Church regarding Mary: 1) Jesus is the sole mediator, 2) Blessed Mary is His mother, 3) We ask the saints to pray for us- we do not pray to the Saints. 4) no title bestowed upon Mary that takes away the effacy of Christ as the only redeemer.

As to the latter, there are many titles for Bl. Mary but on a subjective level one can take a title to the level of idolotry. You may believe that you in fact, through your devotion are on a higher plain or more enlightened than I and bestowed greater gifts than I for your devotion- but I doubt that is the case just as I doubt that because protestants believe they have the truth over Mother Church, that they do.

You state that I diminish Mary's role, while in fact I do not. I honor her role and in the proper context.

You state that you need to be careful about what you believe as you will be held accountable. In my opinion you cannot see past your pride on this matter.

Right now I'm in your stage of the game...that is I tend to see Mary the way you see her lol.

I'm just wondering though...the Church has other titles for Mary...like the New Eve, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven (if I'm not mistaken)...do you believe in these titles too? Is there any title you disagree with?

 

[isshinwhat]

Nancy, this simply says that there will always be faithful who will not be in error in their beliefs. That is at least because some of the faithful are included in the Magesterium. So since the Magesterium cannot err, there will always be those occupying the teaching of the Magesterium and so there will always be those who are faithful and do not err...

And it does not mean that laity has the charism of infalliblity.

"The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One (cf. Jn 2:20, 27), cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole people's supernatural discernment in matters of faith when 'from the bishops down to the last of the lay faithful' they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the People of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the Word of God (cf. 1 Thes. 2:13). Through it, the People of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3), penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life." (Lumen Gentium, No. 12; citing St. Augustine, De Praed. Sanct. 14, 27L 44, 980).

That's something I knew but had never read anywhere specifically, thanks Nancy and TLF.

 

[BAFRIEND]

BA, there is no point in continuing to argue this with you. Ignoring all that has been posted from Popes and Church teaching will apparently not give any room for pause in the denouncment of these teachings of the Church, a denouncement which rests on claiming they are not teachings of the Church yet for which no valid proof has been offered.

My recommendation is if it is too hard to accept the teaching of the Popes and Church on this mater it is better to keep silent rather than fight against it.


It takes humility to reconginze one needs the Mother of God to go with them and keep safe for them all the graces God has given them. DeMontfort warns us how those strong and might in the faith have fallen becaues they believed they did not need Mary and that they could keep themselves the graces God had given them. God instead, because of their pride, allowed satan to steal these graces away and great was their fall.

Sorry, once again you state I have offered no proof or evidence. I offered you the Dogmatic Constitution of the RCC which you implied was bogus. I offered you one of the foremost Catholic writers to the general public who echos my comments, in addition, the many priests I have spoken with agreed with this teaching.

You tell me that I need to keep silent ? Sorry, it is not your place to do that just as it is not your place to demote me to protestant as you have tried to brand me time and again in this thread.

I have the humility to stand behind the Church's true teachings even though I know that ones like you will try to make it look like I launch an attack on Christianity's greatest saint because I know that I have the truth and write it here. And while there are many fringies in this forum, I also know that the consensus of the majority of Catholics on this earth would stand beihind the Church with me.