Mary as mediatrix?

[WarriorAngel]

How about a question ?

Question:
How come at the wedding when Mary asked Jesus to turn the water into wine, she simply did not do it herself ?

Answer:
Because she is not God.

It is due to the fact that Mary was able to sustain her sinlessness and being thus called by the ecf's the New Eve who unlike Eve - was loyal to God and that God will and does grant her the requests to aid humanity.

It is thru her most powerful intercessory prayers that Jesus enables her to guide where graces are needed. ..it is because she is in constant dialogue with Christ, did the Father's will perfectly, remained chaste and pure, and in thus being the Mother of Jesus - that anyone who petitions her is able to receive the graces Jesus grants thru her petitions.

The very story you posted shows us that altho [and i agree with you she isnt God] she does not send out graces as God, but thru the power of God He does grant her wishes. The wedding at Cana is actually a fine example of this.
She did not ask Jesus. She told Jesus the problem and He did not refuse her.
In fact, before His ministry even began, He did as she wanted. She knew He would uphold that honor for her out of love and honor due her as His Mother. [He didnt break any Commandments]

It is by no mere coincidence that Jesus allowed her request to be His 1st miracle. What He says shows us in fact this is His 1st. It is no coincidence that she didnt ask Him, but told Him what needed to be done and He in turn called her woman.
Which was a term of endearment.

Genesis 2
23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man.


As for the techy this Pope gave this title, this one didn't...
The term is out there, and i think the confusion can be avoided if we discuss what it means as opposed to the rest of the argument.

 

[kisstheson]

I understand why you feel this way, but I as well as many others can attest this is not from God for it is not based on the fulness of truth.

And I have learned to never say never about Catohlic teacihng, for if I am wrong, I risk damnation for rejecting truth.

Truth is a person,

That person is Jesus.

Can one knowingly reject Truth without rejecting Jesus?


That's a lot to consider, and as I said before, Truth must matter above all else in our seeking. If anyone's pov matters more than sincerely seeking out the truth with no conditions on God, then they risk losing everything.


Remember, we are held accountable for what we know, and could have known. Only God knows if this is something insurmountable for anyone. We don't, and neither does the person involved.

So, we must all always be seeking deeper understanding of the truth of God and not rest in any mistaken belief that if we have a hard time understanding something we don't have to continue to pursue such understanding, that "God will understand". This is presuming on God's Grace.

The sin of presumption is a very dangerous thing, which is why we pray to be delivered from presumptuous sin.

This thread has convinced me not to revert to Roman Catholicism. I would never call Mary my co-Redemptrix or some of the lofty things you have called her even if a gun were held to my head. As far as I am concerned this is blasphemous teaching and THAT is a dangerous thing. It totally detracts my attention from Jesus and I will share His glordy with no other. Deeper understanding of the truth, my foot. I'm shocked and saddened that catholics believe this.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I am a convert ?

LOL.

I had an infant baptism in the RCC with Catholic Godparents and have owned a rosary my entire life.

Is my memory wrong, which it could be, or are you not a revert after spending time in protestantism?

 

[thereselittleflower]

This thread has convinced me not to revert to Roman Catholicism. I would never call Mary my co-Redemptrix or some of the lofty things you have called her even if a gun were held to my head. As far as I am concerned this is blasphemous teaching and THAT is a dangerous thing. It totally detracts my attention from Jesus and I will share His glordy with no other. Deeper understanding of the truth, my foot. I'm shocked and saddened that catholics believe this.

I understand your feelings. But it would be worse to tell you this is not what the Church believes, then you become Catholic, and then discover this. It simply means you are not ready yet.

But, the issue is you think we mean something we don't mean by these titles. To you they mean one thing. To us they mean something else.

Until you put aside your own cultural pesuppositions and try to look at this from our viewpoint, it will be something that will be easy for you to reject.

First, you need to understand what we mean by our words, not what they mean to you where you are at from your perspective. I think that when you do this, you will find that all of this is simply much ado about nothing.


Again, it took two to fall. It took two to bring salvation.

As in the fall, so in redemptiopn - one was in a subordinate, secondary position - Eve and Mary.

To Eve's "no" to God, Mary said "yes" to God.

As Jesus is the New Adam, so the ancient Church taught Mary is the New Eve.


This is the scriptural and theological foundation of what we are talking about.

 

[BAFRIEND]

This thread has convinced me not to revert to Roman Catholicism. I would never call Mary my co-Redemptrix or some of the lofty things you have called her even if a gun were held to my head. As far as I am concerned this is blasphemous teaching and THAT is a dangerous thing. It totally detracts my attention from Jesus and I will share His glordy with no other. Deeper understanding of the truth, my foot. I'm shocked and saddened that catholics believe this.

Most Catholics would not adhere or have the same understanding as TLF.

I don't know where you are on your journey- but your best bet would be to visit an inquiry session at a nearby parish and get their take.

I hope that you will be willing to give yourself this opportunity. If you do not, you will never know.

I served four years on team in an RCIA program and understand your concerns. I also understand how you must feel when another person uses the example of "eating babyfood" in a demeaning manner when speaking of converts. That is far from the truth and no way to address adults interested in the Church. As for the Rosary, it is little "c" Catholic and I know many devout Catholics without devotions to it as well as converts.

 

[thereselittleflower]

How about a question ?

Question:
How come at the wedding when Mary asked Jesus to turn the water into wine, she simply did not do it herself ?

Answer:
Because she is not God.

That's right, she is not God. Jesus is God.

Mary mediated between man and God, then between God and man:

First, Mary went to God and told Him of the need.

"They have no wine"
​

Then Mary went to men and told them what they needed to do in relationship to God to have the need met.

"Do whatever He tells you to do"
​

Classic mediation.

Mary, Mediatrix in action.

 

[WarriorAngel]

This thread has convinced me not to revert to Roman Catholicism. I would never call Mary my co-Redemptrix or some of the lofty things you have called her even if a gun were held to my head. As far as I am concerned this is blasphemous teaching and THAT is a dangerous thing. It totally detracts my attention from Jesus and I will share His glordy with no other. Deeper understanding of the truth, my foot. I'm shocked and saddened that catholics believe this.

Mary doesnt want us to detract attention from Jesus. He is her life.
She wants to point to Jesus.

And this is a non issue...at this point.
AS I said, you have to understand the basics before you get to anything like this.
I know - been there and had to discover other steps first.

And i am a cradle Catholic. [as you were once - if i am correct]
Dont let anyone impede you with arguments and such...

We are all but faulty critters.

Most Catholics would not adhere or have the same understanding as TLF.

I don't know where you are on your journey- but your best bet would be to visit an inquiry session at a nearby parish and get their take.

I hope that you will be willing to give yourself this opportunity. If you do not, you will never know.

I served four years on team in an RCIA program and understand your concerns. I also understand how you must feel when another person uses the example of "eating babyfood" in a demeaning manner when speaking of converts. That is far from the truth and no way to address adults interested in the Church. As for the Rosary, it is little "c" Catholic and I know many devout Catholics without devotions to it as well as converts.

Well BA, then you would have surely understood why i said 'baby food'...if you are so versed.
Paul says we must drink 'milk' before we eat meat.
I felt Kisstheson is on babyfood, since milk is the starting point, and she may be a little more than on milk.

Maybe you wouldnt see AND remark an offense if you knew what i was saying.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Mary doesnt want us to detract attention from Jesus. He is her life.
She wants to point to Jesus.

And this is a non issue...at this point.
AS I said, you have to understand the basics before you get to anything like this.
I know - been there and had to discover other steps first.

And i am a cradle Catholic. [as you were once - if i am correct]
Dont let anyone impede you with arguments and such...

We are all but faulty critters.




Well BA, then you would have surely understood why i said 'baby food'...if you are so versed.
Paul says we must drink 'milk' before we eat meat.
I felt Kisstheson is on babyfood, since milk is the starting point, and she may be a little more than on milk.

Maybe you wouldnt see AND remark an offense if you knew what i was saying.

You don't understand that telling an adult their lifes journey is the equivalent of babyfood compared to yours could be demeaning ?

felt Kisstheson is on babyfood

 

[BAFRIEND]

That's right, she is not God. Jesus is God.

Mary mediated between man and God, then between God and man:

First, Mary went to God and told Him of the need.

"They have no wine"
​

Then Mary went to men and told them what they needed to do in relationship to God to have the need met.

"Do whatever He tells you to do"
​

Classic mediation.

Mary, Mediatrix in action.

I think that analogy fails on many levels. First there is the irony of accusing me of personal interpretation and then delivering this...- then there is the fact that you use the dissimilar physical situation to a metaphysical one.

But given your analogy I think this is only fair:

27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
28But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." Luke 11 NASB

I have seen various explanations for this. One is that Jesus enforces the comment of the woman by holding His mother up as an example of one who observes the word. But in this translation, we see the Jesus use the phrase, "On the contrary". Probably the poorest explanation is the one given by Father Scanoln on the audio The Rosary with Scanlon and Dana. Scanlon reflects that Jesus is actually hiding Mary behind the veil until the time is correct. I cannot agree with that. That implys duplicity which Jesus praises one of his apostles for not having and brings to mind the story of Legion "We are Many". Hiding is to be unethical by definition because the term "ethics" derives from the Greek "Alethia" which means not to bury, hide, or conceal.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think that analogy fails on many levels. First there is the irony of accusing me of personal interpretation and then delivering this...

We are allowed to privately interpret scripture not specifically interpreted by the Church AS LONG AS it is consistant with Catholic Teaching. This is how the Church interprets this passage BA. Nothing exclusively private about it.



Also:

Catechism of the Catholic Church



GLOSSARY

Mediator/Mediatrix:​

One who links or reconciles separate or opposing parties. Thus Jesus Christ is the “one mediator between God and the human race” (1 Tm 2:5). Through his sacrificial offering he has become high priest and unique mediator who has gained for us access to God’s saving grace for humanity. Moreover, Mary too is sometimes called Mediatrix in virtue of her cooperation in the saving mission of Christ, who alone is the unique mediator between God and humanity (618, 1544; cf. 970).

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues
uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the 149,501 Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . 1370 Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512
​

- then there is the fact that you use the dissimilar physical situation to a metaphysical one.

No, this is where we see her role as Mediatrix first in operation after that of her fiat to God. That it has become mystical after her assumption is not surprising. This is no way takes away from her mediating role at the Marriage of Cana.

I have seen various explanations for this. One is that Jesus enforces the comment of the woman by holding His mother up as an example of one who observes the word. But in this translation, we see the Jesus use the phrase, "On the contrary".

No, rather, he affirms what was said of his mother, then adds to it his teaching.

Probably the poorest explanation is the one given by Father Scanoln on the audio The Rosary with Scanlon and Dana. Scanlon reflects that Jesus is actually hiding Mary behind the veil until the time is correct. I cannot agree with that.

It is absolutely correct.

That implys duplicity which Jesus praises one of his apostles for not having and brings to mind the story of Legion "We are Many". Hiding is to be unethical by definition because the term "ethics" derives from the Greek "Alethia" which means not to bury, hide, or conceal.

God hid from ages past what was revealed in Christ almost 2000 years ago . . . should we accuse God of duplicity?

Hardly.

The arguments being made here against the teaching of the Church are very deficient and dangerous.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Perhaps this will help others understand:

THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
Part One: Doctrines of the Faith
V. Blessed Virgin Mary​

Christ the One Mediator--and Mary​

Christ the One Mediator--and Mary. The Council was at special pains to insist that Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man. All other mediators, including Mary, take their meaning and efficacy from him: "There is but one mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, 'for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all.' ''16 How, then, does Mary fit into this plan and in what sense is she, what the Council calls her, "mediatrix"?
It was the first time in conciliar history that this bone of contention was treated extensively with a view to meet sincere objectors in their search for the true relation between Christ and his Mother, the one mediator and the other mediatrix. To understand the Council's further explanation, we must see what the respective mediations are, as Catholicism understands them.
Technically a mediator (mesites in St. Paul) is a person who holds a favorable position between parties at variance, and can therefore interpose between them as the equal friend of each. The history of religion is filled with attempts to bridge the gap between the Deity and man, and in Christianity, the heretical systems of Gnosticism and Arianism were essentially misguided efforts to find this mediator in someone less than Christ. Thus in Gnosticism the aeons or "intermediate beings" were supposed to span the chasm between the Godhead and the material world, which was believed intrinsically evil. In Arianism, the Logos, as the most exalted of creatures and creator of the rest, served the same purpose.
From this standpoint, the main thrust of all the early councils---Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon---was to settle once and for all that no one but the second person of the Trinity become man, is man's mediator with the Almighty. His mediatorship was declared to be both in the order of being (natural or objective) and in the order of action (functional or moral). In the order of being, Christ is our mediator by the fact of his hypostatic union, joining in one person the two natures that need to be mediated: divine, which He has in common with the Father; and human, which he shares with us. In the order of action, Christ alone is our mediator by the fact that his death atoned for man's sins, and his humanity is the channel of grace from God to the human race.
Another way of looking at the two mediations is to say that the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferrel of grace) is media tion morally.
This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.
Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace: either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely co-operating with grace when conferred.
Everyone who is saved has, in some sense, been such a mediator between himself and God, which the Church assumes by its claim that man's freedom was not extinguished by the fall; that he can (and must) collaborate with God's grace to reach the God for whom he was made.
Moreover, vicarious mediation is also part of the plan of salvation, since we are bidden to concern ourselves about others, and the solidarity of mankind in Christ lays the foundation for helping others save their souls, too.
It is in this context that the Blessed Virgin enters as mediatrix par excellence. We presume that she co-operated fully with the graces she received, to save her own soul. But she mediated for others, as well, by her vicarious assistance to the rest of mankind. She deserves the title mediatrix because she co-operated in a unique way with Christ in his redemptive labors on earth, and because in heaven she continues interceding for those who are still working out their salvation as pilgrims in the Church Militant or souls suffering in purgatory. The Vatican Council takes account of both types of mediation and shows how they depend upon the primary role of Christ, her divine Son.

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her who was predestined to be the mother of his Son, so that just as woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. That is true in outstanding fashion of the mother of Jesus, who gave to the world him who is Life itself and who renews all things and who was enriched by God with the gifts which befit such a role.
Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under him and with him, by the grace of Almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption.17

Nor did Mary's consent stop with Christ's entrance into the world. It revealed itself during his life in her womb, at birth in Bethlehem, at the visit of the shepherds and Magi, and flight into Egypt, when she offered him in the temple and twelve years later found him there teaching the scribes and elders. It was shown during his public life at strategic points in the Gospels, notably at the beginning of Christ's miracles in Cana and the dramatic episode when he declared blessed those who, like her, heard the word of God and kept it. She was with him in his passion and stood under the cross at Calvary. She mothered the infant Church of her Son, before Pentecost and afterward, until her departure from this world to be assumed into heaven.
Once entered heaven, she did not cease her mediatorial function in favor of mankind. Terrestrial mediation now became celestial. While co-operating with Christ's redemptive task, by freely consenting to all that he asked of her, when she was still on earth, her mediation was meritorious; she was still a wayfarer, and thus joined in spirit with the earthly side of the Savior's reconciliation of the human race with his Father. After the Assumption she could no longer merit grace for others, but she can still intercede and by her prayers exercise in glory a role comparable to that of other saints in heaven but immeasurably more effective because she is the Mother of the God with whom she pleads. As nearly as it is possible to say, she is mother of mankind in the order of grace:

This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gift of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore, the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, Mediatrix This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one mediator.18

Although she is mediatrix, Mary remains a mere creature, and "no creature could ever be counted equal with the incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but sharing in this one source.''19
​

Mary's mediation, therefore, is a sheer gift of her Son; it is participated in a way similar to the way all creatures share in the attributes of the Godhead---contingently, not naturally---and no more detracts from Christ's unique mediatorship than parenthood in human beings detracts from the unique fatherhood of the Creator.

THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
Part One: Doctrines of the Faith
V. Blessed Virgin Mary​

The Atonement of Christ--and Mary​

The Atonement of Christ--and Mary. When we speak of Christ's mediation and of Mary's subordinate co-operation with him, we are talking abstractly about what the Redemption means concretely. It was through the Redemption that the Savior exercised his mediatorial reconciliation, and that his mother shares in the process.
Yet the redemptive action of Jesus Christ may be conceived from two vantage points: It may be understood negatively in terms of remission from sin, and then it coincides with the atonement; or it may be seen positively, as the bestowal of grace that leads to heaven, which is properly justification through the merits of the Redeemer.
As Catholic Tradition understands it, "atonement" means reparation of any wrong or injury, either material (as the loss of something valuable) or moral (which is an injury or offense). Material harm requires restitution; moral injury calls for satisfaction, which is nothing else than compensation for some wrong done to another.
After man had sinned, he was obliged to repair the injustice committed against God, which God took upon himself to expiate in the person of Jesus Christ. Our interest here is not to recapitulate what the Church has always held, that Christ by his sufferings and death rendered vicarious atonement to God for the sins of men.20 We wish to see how Vatican II viewed the Mother of Christ in co-operating with the atonement. Most of the difficulties center on this delicate question.
Her supporting role is stated in a single sentence:

"The Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, grieving exceedingly with her only-begotten Son, uniting herself with a maternal heart with his sacrifice, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, which she herself had brought forth.''21
​

Mary's title to mediatrix-in-atonement rests on the pain she freely underwent in union with her Son. The sins of men called for suffering from the God-man, and he wished his mother to share in the pain as she was the one whom he loved most and whose sympathy for him was the main source of her own distress.



​

 

[thereselittleflower]

Again, the teaching of the Church through Her Popes:

Denzinger
Documents of the Roman Pontiffs and of the Councils

PIUS X 1903-1914

The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of Graces *
[From the Encyclical, "Ad diem," February 2, 1904]​

1978a As the result of this participation between Mary and Christ in the sorrows and the will, she deserved most worthily to be made the restorer of the lost world," * and so the dispenser of all the gifts which Jesus procured for us by His death and blood. . . . Since she excels all in sanctity, and by her union with Christ and by her adoption by Christ for the work of man's salvation, she merited for us de congruo, as they say, what Christ merited de condigno, and is the first minister of the graces to be bestowed.

Denzinger
Documents of the Roman Pontiffs and of the Councils​

LEO XIII 1878-1903​

The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of Graces *
[The Encyclical, "Octobri mense," on the Rosary, Sept. 22, 1891]​

1940a The eternal Son of God, when He wished to assume the nature of man for the redemption and glory of man, and for this reason was about to enter upon a kind of mystic marriage with the entire human race, did not do this before He received the wholly free consent of His designated mother, who, in a way, played the part of the human race itself, according to that famous and truthful opinion of Aquinas: "Through the Annunciation the Virgin's consent was looked for in place of all human nature." * Therefore, no less truly and properly may it be affirmed that nothing at all of the very great treasure of every grace, which the Lord confers, since "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" [John 1:17], nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, God so willing; so, just as no one can approach the highest Father except through the Son, so no one can approach Christ except through His Mother
​

 

[kisstheson]

"Mary's title to mediatrix-in-atonement rests on the pain she freely underwent in union with her Son. The sins of men called for suffering from the God-man, and he wished his mother to share in the pain as she was the one whom he loved most and whose sympathy for him was the main source of her own distress."

I disagree. John was at the cross also. Does he receive the same awknowledgement? *sigh* all praise to Jesus Christ! The work on the cross is His alone! No one shared in His pain. Mary had compassion and sympathy but she wasn't suffering the pain of our sins. This grieves me deeply. I can't even read this stuff without crying.

 

[kisstheson]

Again, the teaching of the Church through Her Popes:

Denzinger

Documents of the Roman Pontiffs and of the Councils​

PIUS X 1903-1914​

The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of Graces *
[From the Encyclical, "Ad diem," February 2, 1904]​

1978aAs the result of this participation between Mary and Christ in the sorrows and the will, she deserved most worthily to be made the restorer of the lost world," * and so the dispenser of all the gifts which Jesus procured for us by His death and blood. . . . Since she excels all in sanctity, and by her union with Christ and by her adoption by Christ for the work of man's salvation, she merited for us de congruo, as they say, what Christ merited de condigno, and is the first minister of the graces to be bestowed.

Denzinger
Documents of the Roman Pontiffs and of the Councils​

LEO XIII 1878-1903

The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of Graces *
[The Encyclical, "Octobri mense," on the Rosary, Sept. 22, 1891]​

1940aThe eternal Son of God, when He wished to assume the nature of man for the redemption and glory of man, and for this reason was about to enter upon a kind of mystic marriage with the entire human race, did not do this before He received the wholly free consent of His designated mother, who, in a way, played the part of the human race itself, according to that famous and truthful opinion of Aquinas: "Through the Annunciation the Virgin's consent was looked for in place of all human nature." * Therefore, no less truly and properly may it be affirmed that nothing at all of the very great treasure of every grace, which the Lord confers, since "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" [John 1:17], nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, God so willing; so, just as no one can approach the highest Father except through the Son, so no one can approach Christ except through His Mother
​

Now where in scripture does it say we approach Jesus through Mary. Absolutely no where. Wow...

 

[thereselittleflower]

"Mary's title to mediatrix-in-atonement rests on the pain she freely underwent in union with her Son. The sins of men called for suffering from the God-man, and he wished his mother to share in the pain as she was the one whom he loved most and whose sympathy for him was the main source of her own distress."

I disagree. John was at the cross also. Does he receive the same awknowledgement?

Was John Jesus' mother? Did he bring Him forth into the world, suck him at his breast, watch him grow and mature, sacrifice as a mother would for her only son?

Did Simeon say to John, "Behold, a sword shall pierce your heart also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." ??

No . . there is no comparison between the suffering of Mary and that of John. To suggest there was is incomprehensible to me.

John was not even related to Jesus and had no intinmate relationship with him as Mary did from His conception in Her womb . . . She who contained what the universe cannot contain - God.

Was John immaculately conceived? Was he sinless like Mary?

There is no comparison.

No, John is not deserving of such consideration as is given to Mary.

*sigh* all praise to Jesus Christ! The work on the cross is His alone! No one shared in His pain. Mary had compassion and sympathy but she wasn't suffering the pain of our sins. This grieves me deeply.

I am sorry you do not yet understand the teaching of the Church, for I believe once you do understand it, you will find reason to greatly rejoince.

Jesus alone died on the cross, but Jesus was not alone when He died ont he cross. He was with the one who was there when He came into this world, His mother, Mary, Mother of God. She suffered as prophecied by St Simeon, and a sword pierced her own heart also, as he prophesied. Jesus did not suffer alone. . . . . . .

Even Paul said he was making up for what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

If Paul could make up for what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ, how much more so Mary?

 

[kisstheson]

deleted...repeated post.

 

[kisstheson]

Well...I disagree strongly. Nobody helped Jesus in our redemption. mary was there loving Him and supporting Him yes. A sword pierced her heart because she saw the intentions of men and it broke her haert. Do you think Mary was like the movie Mary of Nazareth...when Jesus was carrying His cross blood started to flow from her head as well as though she had a crown of thorns on?

Let Jesus be. let Him get all the glory. please don't bring others into the terrible pain He suffered. Let Him get all the glory, honor and praise. Only Jesus! Only Christ!
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Now where in scripture does it say we approach Jesus through Mary. Absolutely no where. Wow...

Where does it say in scripture that everything must be expllicitly stated in scripture?

That is a protetant way of thinking of scripture which is based on sola scriptura and denies the Magesterium and Sacred Tradition.

Divine Revelation of God to the apostles is much more than scripture. Scripture is only part of that Divine Revelaiton, not the sum total of it.

The scriptures themselves command us to stand fast and hod to the TRADITIONS the apostle taught, whether by word (orally) or by epistles (writing/scriptures).

We cannot simply hold to one and say the other is not necessary or wrong simply because it does not line up with our private interpretation of scripture.

NOWHERE are you or I or anyone else promised that we can infallibly interpret scripture. If we presume to itnerpret scirpture and then hold the Catholic Church accountable to our own fallible interpretation, we do a grave injustice to scripture, the Church and to God.

In fact, we set ourselves up as our own defacto POPE!

That is then in rebellion to the truth revealed to the apostles and given to the Church both VERBALLY and written.

Without the FULL deposit of faith, all one has is partially formed faith, one formed on only part of what was given. It would be like trying to build a house by guessing at the foundation because all you have are the plans for what is above ground.

God didn't leave us with only part of the blueprints, He left us with the whole thing, the Church.


When the apostles laid the foundation of the Christian faith, this was done verbally. The NT scriptures were written to those to whom the foundation was already laid. That means the NT did not lay the foundation, but were written to build upon it.

That means, unless you have the plans for laying the foundation, which were transmitted ORALLY in the Church, not in scriptures, then you can only guess at how to build both the foundation and then the house on top of it.


The Catholic Church still teaches the same foundation as She did almost 2000 years ago.

You need this foundation to properly understand the scriptures. That is how God designed it.

You need the full deposit of faith, not just part of it. Right now, all you have is part of it and so lack the oral teaching that is foundational to the proper formation of the Christian faith as given by the apostles.

The only place you will find this unadulterated is in the Catholic Church.

This is why you are having difficulty with these doctrines of the Church. Your view point has been unbalanced because you only have part of the deposit of faith in scripture.

It comes down to this:

Either the Church is the Pillar of Truth or She isn't. If She is, then all She teaches is truth.

If She isn't, then Christ's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against Her has failed and all is lost, for Jesus cannot be trusted to keep His promises.


Do you see where the reasoning that the Church is wrong leads us? To utter loss of hope, for if we cannot trust the promises of Christ, then we are doomed.


If we can trust the promises of Christ, then it logically follows that the Church is right that Mary is Mediatrix. if the Church is right, where is the problem? Is it not the truth you desire above all else?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well...I disagree strongly. Nobody helped Jesus in our redemption. mary was there loving Him and supporting Him yes. A sword pierced her heart because she saw the intentions of men and it broke her haert. Do you think Mary was like the movie Mary of Nazareth...when Jesus was carrying His cross blood started to flow from her head as well as though she had a crown of thorns on?

Why did a sword pierce Mary's heart? What was God's purpose for prophecying this to Mary?

Let Jesus be. let Him get all the glory. please don't bring others into the terrible pain He suffered. Let Him get all the glory, honor and praise. Only Jesus! Only Christ!
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Jesus brought others into the terrible pain he suffered.

Scripture brings others into the terrible pain he suffered.


Are scripture wrong when they say Paul was making up for what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ?




By the way, Mary is totally transparent between us and God . .. nothing is kept by her. Everything given to her is given to Jesus. It passes right through her.

She can no more stand in the way of Jesus than the air can stand in the way of the sun. Yet the air is there and the sun must go through the air to reach us . . . . . . .

 

[JoabAnias]

I can ask Mary to pray for me, but I can also pray for me without her help. But without Jesus we have no advocate before the father.

So I can't pray directly to the father for you? Just did bro. Thanks be to God. Do you see how your restricting the term advocate?

I agree we have no redemption without Jesus. We should be eternally grateful for that and I would hope no-one would dispute that.

We have to recall that our Triune God is perfectly ONE in His omnipotence.