Mary and the early Church

[Carl Emerson]

OK good responses thanks...

The Scriptures themselves were oral traditions at some stage, and various interpretations of Scripture are also traditional interpretations eg. Sola Scriptura.

Mmmm... I appreciate your creative reasoning.

Reminds me of the saying "for every generalization there is an exception - including this one !!! please excuse my humour.

 

[cradleGO]

The Scriptures themselves were oral traditions at some stage, and various interpretations of Scripture are also traditional interpretations eg. Sola Scriptura.

And this opens the whole Tradition versus Scriptures. Tradition chose the Scriptures. There I said it.

I don't know the basis for the question of Mary's role in the early Church. She is absolutely essential to THE CHURCH, but as for post- Resurrection/Pentecost, she was in a patriarchal society which just happened to be very hostile towards Christians (first by Jews, then also by Romans) , and there was brewing a war with Rome against Jewish authorities which extended well beyond her life for another 100 years or so. That is just the backdrop.

I don't know the source, but Mary died in or near Ephesus, which was a major (pagan) city, worshipping Artemis. So, she had to keep her head down there too, although what I read said was that she had a steady line of Christian pilgrims visiting her.

Oh, as to the Cana story, just to be clear, she was telling the servants - not hers to boss around, presumably - to do what Jesus asked them to do. She got Jesus to do the miracle, then made sure He would be able to make enough wine by speaking to the servants.

And, Mary consented to the Incarnation. Her role was not passive. Just clarifying things I read here, just in case someone doesn't know.

 

[Betho]

Are you suggesting that Joseph was perfect ?

My life was marked by persecution and affronts due to unconventional biblical explanations. The traditionalists hate me, but those who hate me the most are the neo-evangelicals. Joseph was qualified as "son of David", "righteous" and he talked with angels. I'm not going to defend his dulian veneration using the Bible. The true fact, Jose did not want to marry Maria because he thought that the embryo generated in her was from the Angel, so Jose, being Just, kept his distance from Maria, he only agreed to marry her when he was advised that the son was from the Holy Spirit, a entity that, because it was neutral and feminine, could not prevent it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

She got Jesus to do the miracle, then made sure He would be able to make enough wine by speaking to the servants.

Just a point to note: Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing.
When He said His time had not yet come, at that moment the Fathers will was not revealed.
Then He saw the Fathers intent to begin His Glorious Ministry and acted on it in obedience.
Interesting in this case is that Mary may well have known His time had arrived before He did !!!

 

[concretecamper]

Just a point to note: Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing.
When He said His time had not yet come, at that moment the Fathers will was not revealed.
Then He saw the Fathers intent to begin His Glorious Ministry and acted on it in obedience.
Interesting in this case is that Mary may well have known His time had arrived before He did !!!

Here is Fulton Sheen's take on the matter quoted from "The Life of Christ"

There were, in His life, two occasions when His human nature seemed to show an unwillingness to take on His burden of suffering. In the Garden, He asked His Father if it be possible to take away His chalice of woe. But He immediately afterward acquiesced in His Father’s will: “Not My will, but Thine be done.” The same apparent reluctance was also manifested in the face of the will of His mother. Cana was a rehearsal for Golgotha. He was not questioning the wisdom of beginning His Public Life and going to death at this particular point in time; it was rather a question of submitting His reluctant human nature to obedience to the Cross. There is a striking parallel between His Father’s bidding Him to His public death and His mother’s bidding Him to His public life. Obedience triumphed in both cases; at Cana, the water was changed into wine; at Calvary, the wine was changed into blood. He was telling His mother that she was virtually pronouncing a sentence of death over Him. Few are the mothers who send their sons to battlefields; but here was one who was actually hastening the hour of her Son’s mortal conflict with the forces of evil. If He agreed to her request, He would be beginning His hour of death and glorification. To the Cross He would go with double commission, one from His Father in heaven, the other from His mother on earth.

 

[AlexB23]

Friends I am interested in why Mary the Mother of Jesus hardly gets a mention by Paul and didn't seem to have a significant role in the early church.

These are the three verses with the name Mary - some of which may be referring to others.

Acts 1:14
All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Acts 12:12
And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John, who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.

Romans 16:6
Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.

Do we have any other credible evidence that Mary had a role in the church ?

This is my say on this: While the New Testament mentions Mary only a few times, there are some early Christian writings and traditions that suggest a more significant role for Mary in the early church. These sources are not as reliable or authoritative as the New Testament, but they do provide some intriguing insights.

One of the most notable early Christian writings about Mary is the Protoevangelion of James, a apocryphal text that was likely written in the second century. This work presents Mary's life from her birth to the presentation of Jesus in the temple, and it includes several stories about her interactions with other biblical figures, such as Elizabeth and Anna. While the Protoevangelion is not considered part of the canonical Bible, it does provide some interesting details about Mary's role in the early Christian imagination.

Another important tradition is the belief that Mary went to Ephesus with John the Apostle after Jesus' death and ministry, where she lived out the rest of her life. This tradition is mentioned in several early church fathers, such as Irenaeus and Epiphanius, who write about Mary's presence in Ephesus and her association with the early Christian community there.

There are also some archaeological findings that suggest a connection between Mary and the early church in Ephesus. For example, an ancient inscription discovered near Ephesus mentions "Mary" and "John," which some scholars believe may refer to Mary the mother of Jesus and John the Apostle.

Overall, while the New Testament does not provide a great deal of information about Mary's role in the early church, there are some intriguing hints and traditions that suggest she may have played a more significant role than is immediately apparent from the text. However, it is important to remember that these sources are not as reliable or authoritative as the New Testament itself, and they should be approached with caution.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Just a point to note: Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing.
When He said His time had not yet come, at that moment the Fathers will was not revealed.
Then He saw the Fathers intent to begin His Glorious Ministry and acted on it in obedience.
Interesting in this case is that Mary may well have known His time had arrived before He did !!!

I don't know if she knew that His time had arrived. But she lived in the same house as Christ for about 30 years. I think she might have seen some odd things happening from time to time. Maybe, by some miracle, their own larder never seemed to be empty even if they had guests. I think there might have been a hint or three in her daily life that her son was more than merely human.

So she mentioned the problem faced by the wine stewards half expecting that He would be able to do something about it.

Then she told them "to do everything He tells you."

But Christ would have known that a public display of His powers would set Him on the road to Calvary. He'd probably been given clear hints prior to this event as to where it would lead. Joseph was his step father, but His real spiritual Father may well have told Him previously. There would have been some continuing communication between them.

Obviously this is conjecture but Christ and Mary would not have lived together for 30 years in a vacuum.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't know if she knew that His time had arrived. But she lived in the same house as Christ for about 30 years. I think she might have seen some odd things happening from time to time. Maybe, by some miracle, their own larder never seemed to be empty even if they had guests. I think there might have been a hint or three in her daily life that her son was more than merely human.

So she mentioned the problem faced by the wine stewards half expecting that He would be able to do something about it.

Then she told them "to do everything He tells you."

But Christ would have known that a public display of His powers would set Him on the road to Calvary. He'd probably been given clear hints prior to this event as to where it would lead. Joseph was his step father, but His real spiritual Father may well have told Him previously. There would have been some continuing communication between them.

Obviously this is conjecture but Christ and Mary would not have lived together for 30 years in a vacuum.

Yes - however He had been living the life of an itinerant Rabbi for some time it seems.

She knew her son was more than human from the events around and before His birth.

 

[packermann]

Friends I am interested in why Mary the Mother of Jesus hardly gets a mention by Paul and didn't seem to have a significant role in the early church.

These are the three verses with the name Mary - some of which may be referring to others.

Acts 1:14
All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Acts 12:12
And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John, who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.

Romans 16:6
Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.

Do we have any other credible evidence that Mary had a role in the church ?

 

[packermann]

Mary said that God regarded the lowliness of his handmaid. God was pleased with her humility.Gabriel said to Mary that she was full of grace. The only other person that was called full of grace was Jesus. They were so full of grace that there was no room for sin.

I notice that your arguments are based on sola scriptura. If it was not in scripture then it did not happen. But the problem is that sola scriptura is not anywhere in scripture. Paul did write to Timothy that all scripture is inspired by God. I agree. But he did not write that only scripture is inspired by God. If we look to the teaching of the early church fathers in the first century then we see that Mary had a high regard.

The apostles knew that if the enemies found out how great Mary was that they would have killed her. So they did not make it explicit in their teaching. But the Apostle John was entrusted with Mary, which was the greatest mission given to any apostle. And when Mary died and went to heaven John had a vision of the one who gave birth to Jesus, was crowned as Queen of Heaven, clothed with the sun (or Son?), and is the mother of all who bear the testimony of Jesus. This is obviously Mary - especially in John's gospel after Jesus' death on the cross, it says that John took Mary as their own. The plural is used - showing John represented all Christians. So Mary is the mother of all who bear the testimony of Christ!

Mary did not part of Red Sea like Moses. She did not preach to thousands like Peter. She did not write any of the gospels or even one epistle. But she prayed, and prayed, and prayed. Prayer is the most important activity we can do. I learned this from Mary. I was once a Baptist minister but I failed because I devoted most of my time in preparing sermon. I should have been devoted to prayer. And when I lost my ministry I stopped praying entirely. But Mary quietly and prayerfully brought me back to her Son Jesus. With my devotion to Mary I am praying to Jesus more than anytime I was a Protestant. And as Mary said in the Gospel of John - do whatever He tells you to do. This is my desire.

This is what Mary has done for me.

 

[packermann]

Yes, however it is odd that Mary gets no mention in any of the epistles, but this may have been her own choice.

Are there early mentions by the church fathers?

 

[packermann]

The earliest copy of The Apostles' Creed was in the middle of the first century. And an earlier copy could be found in the future. Some say it may have be written b y the Apostles themselves. Jesus is said in there that He was born of the Virgin Mary. It does a not say He was born of a virgin birth.

And no other person is mentioned positively in the Creed except Jesus and Mary (Pontius Pilate was mentioned but not positively).

Irenaus called Mary the New Eve. He contrasted Eve's disobedience to Mary's obedience. Eve's disobedience brought about Adams fall and the fall of mankind and Mary''s obedience brought about Jesus' incarnation and our salvation.

 

[Nagomirov]

Самая ранняя из известных молитв Божией Матери написана на греческом языке в 250 году н. э., задолго до Третьего Вселенского Собора.
Первая из известных молитв Пресвятой Деве, как и само Евангелие, написана на греческом языке в середине III века от Рождества Христова. Божия Матерь называется в ней «Θεοτοκος» (Богородица).

Ученые считают: то, что в такой ранней молитве Божию Матерь называют именно Богородицей, важно как с исторической, так и с богословской точки зрения.

Эта молитва, как объясняет издание, была найдена на фрагменте папируса, который датируется примерно 250 годом н.э., всего через два века после смерти и Воскресения Иисуса Христа, более чем за полстолетия до св. Константина и Миланского эдикта, но, что еще более важно, за два столетия до Третьего Вселенского (Эфесского) Собора, на котором Пресвятую Деву впервые официально провозгласили Матерью Божией — Богородицей.

Молитва, обращенная к Божией Матери, написана на папирусе коричневыми чернилами. Она звучит таким образом: «Матерь Божия (услышь) мои молитвы: не причиняй нам страданий, но избавь нас от опасности. Ты единственная...».

В 1917 году Библиотека Джона Риленда в Манчестере, Англия, приобрела большую панель из египетского папируса, написанную на греческом койне (средиземноморский разговорный диалект греческого языка, на котором были написаны Евангелия). Молитва была найдена во фрагменте, помеченном номером 470, и она, вероятно, относится к коптской Рождественской Литургии (возможно, Рождественской вечерне), хотя этот фрагмент также может быть частной копией молитвы для личного пользования.

 

[Nagomirov]

«В 1917 году библиотека Джона Райлендса в Манчестере, в которой хранится одна из самых важных в мире коллекций древних папирусов, добавила в свой инвентарь небольшой фрагмент, датируемый, как кажется, концом ΙΙΙ в. и содержащий молитву Деве Марии на греческом языке. Фрагмент, номер 470 в коллекции (P. Ryl. III 470), был опубликован только в 1938 году; вскоре специалисты в области раннехристианского богослужения опознали в его тексте раннюю форму известной молитвы Деве Марии, которая присутствовала в богослужебном употреблении в греческой, латинской и коптской традициях и используется по сей день. Папирус обычно называют по первой строке песнопения, в латинском Sub tuum praesidium [на русском: "Под Твое благоутробие..."]. В его нынешнем состоянии текст заметно поврежден и сильно фрагментирован, так что целиком гимн известен только в реконструкции. В восстановленном состоянии он выглядит следующим образом: "Под Твое благоутробие прибегаем, Богородице, молитв наших не презри в скорбех, но от бед избави нас, едина чистая и благословенная" [2]. Очевидно, эта молитва обращена к Деве Марии, именуемой здесь Богородицей, и содержит прошение о Ее заступничестве. Таким образом, эта молитва, как кажется, представляет собой раннее доказательство того, что почитание Девы Марии действительно уже начало появляться в конце III века. Обратная сторона папируса пуста, что привело его первого издателя к выводу, что он должен был быть предназначен для частного использования...

Тем не менее, использование первого лица множественного числа свидетельствует о том, что текст был создан и, предположительно, использовался для общественной молитвы. Появление такого текста на этом папирусе... в период, когда отцы Церкви хранят относительно почитания Девы удручающее молчание, позволяет предположить, что почитание Марии изначально возникло в более "народном" и менее культурно элитном контексте. Второй крупный источник ранних свидетельств о почитании Девы Марии также подталкивает к этому выводу. "Протоевангелие Иакова", несомненно, было более доступным текстом, чем большинство сочинений ранних отцов Церкви, и, как и многие другие христианские апокрифы, он, вероятно, имел широкий круг читателей и слушателей; возможно, он даже использовался литургически в некоторых ранних общинах. Действительно существует возможность, что lex orandi раннего христианства, то есть его практику богослужения и благочестия, отличал глубокий интерес к Деве Марии еще до того, как это повлияло на lex credendi ранних христиан — на их доктринальные верования. Это определенно объясняет разрыв между отсутствием разработки тем, связанных с Марией, у ранних отцов Церкви и доказательствами Ее раннего почитания, которые мы находим в "Протоевангелии" и в этом папирусе [3]. Возможность такой разницы между происходящим в "народном" благочестии и во все более утонченном мире раннего христианского богословия, безусловно, необходимо иметь в виду.

Также существовали, следует признать, определенные затруднения в отношении датировки этого папируса. При первоначальной публикации издатели датировали документ IV веком. Тем не менее, в то же время они отмечали, что их эксперт по палеографии на основании почерка относил его к III в. и не желал согласиться с более поздней датировкой. Несмотря на свидетельство почерка, опора на которое является стандартным методом для датировки папирусов, издатели приходили к выводу, что текст должен принадлежать IV в., так как "почти невероятно, чтобы молитва, адресованная непосредственно Деве в этих терминах, могла быть написана в III веке" [4]. Аналогичным образом, использование в молитве термина "Богородица" для Марии, по их мнению, не соответствовало ΙΙΙ в., поскольку это именование не использовалось до начала IV в. На основании этих предположений относительно развития почитания Девы Марии издатели решили пренебречь свидетельствами почерка и датировать папирус по меньшей мере столетием позже, чем показало его палеографическое исследование.

С момента публикации папируса, ряд ученых (особенно католических ученых) предпочитали датировать папирус в соответствии с данными палеографии — ΙΙΙ в., в то время как некоторые другие по-прежнему предпочитают датировку IV в. Действительно, в некотором смысле это свидетельство молитвы к Деве и использование именования "Богородица" может лучше соответствовать ΙV в., чем III в. Однако не следует исключать возможность того, что обе практики — и молитвы к Деве, и именование Ее Богородицей — а также этот папирус, действительно датируются уже ΙΙΙ в. Есть весомые свидетельства того, что Ориген начал называть Марию Богородицей еще в первой половине ΙΙΙ в. Хотя есть некоторые споры относительно источников по данному вопросу, общая тенденция состоит в том, чтобы признать Оригена первым автором, использовавшим термин "Богородица" [5]. Кроме того, существует ранняя евхаристическая молитва, так называемая "Анафора египетского Василия", которая призывает заступничество Богородицы в ряду других святых: апостолов, мучеников и так далее. Эта молитва, которую литургисты датируют началом IV века, призывает "помянуть особенно во все времена святую и славную Марию Богородицу; и ее молитвами помиловать всех нас" [6]. Соответственно, не так уж трудно представить, что подобная молитва, как, например, папирус "Под Твое благоутробие...", могла быть произведена лишь немногим раньше в Египте — возможно, в конце III в. Более того... самое раннее повествование об Успении Девы Марии — "Книга упокоения Марии", как представляется, свидетельствует о вере в силу заступничества Марии также уже в третьем веке.

Существуют, таким образом, веские основания полагать, что молитвы к Богородице, действительно могли быть в обращении в Египте уже в III в., так что представляется неразумным игнорировать свидетельство почерка в силу предубеждения против возможности почитания Марии в некоторых местах даже в столь ранний период. В свете этих доказательств и первоначального предположения, что палеография отражает почерк III в., конец III в. представляется вероятной датой для создания этого документа, хотя, безусловно, не следует исключать возможность того, что он может быть даже несколько более ранним».

_____________________________

Источник: Шумейкер С. Д. Мэри в раннехристианской вере и преданности. Нью-Хейвен; Л., 2016. С. 68-72

[1] Робертс, К. Х., Каталог греческих и латинских папирусов в библиотеке Джона Райландса, Манчестер. Манчестер, 1938 год. Т. 3. С. 46-47
[2] Лучшая реконструкция см.: Stegmuller O. «Sub Tuum Praesidium. Bemerkungen zur altesten Überlieferung» // Zeitschrift für katholische Theologie. 1952. N 74. С. 76-82
[3] Джонсон М. Э. «Sub Tuum Praesidium: Богородица в христианской жизни и богослужении перед Ефесом» // Место Христа в литургической молитве: христология, троица, литургическое богословие. Колледжвилль, 2008. С. 243-267.
[4] Робертс, К. Х. Каталог греческих и латинских папирусов в библиотеке Джона Райлендса, Манчестер. Манчестер, 1938 год. Т. 3. С. 46
[4] Обзор различных датировок см.: Förster H. Zur ältesten Überlieferung der marianischen Antiphon «Sub tuum praesidium». Böhlau, 1995. С. 188-189? Где также содержатся ссылки на различные исследования по вопросу.
[5] См., например: Stegmuller O. «Sub Tuum Praesidium. Bemerkungen zur altesten Überlieferung» // Zeitschrift für katholische Theologie. 1952. N 74. С. 80; Джонсон М. Э. «Sub Tuum Praesidium: Богородица в христианской жизни и богослужении до Ефеса» // Место Христа в литургической молитве: христология, троица, литургическое богословие. Колледжвилль, 2008. С. 53-59.
[6] Цит. по: Джаспер Р. К. Д., Каминг Г. Д. Евхаристические молитвы: ранние и реформированные. Колледжвилль, 1990. С. 72

 

[Nagomirov]

В 3 веке Святую Деву называл Богородицей и святой Дионисий Александрийский. Позже Деву исповедовал Богородицей священномученик Пётр Александрийский, мученически погибший за Христа в 311 г.
При этом свщмч. Пётр Александрийский в период с 300 по 303 гг. посвятил храм Деве Марии. Так что ничего необычного нет, что данная молитва адресована Богородице именно в 3 веке.

 

[Nagomirov]

Самым древним гимном в честь Богородицы, дошедшем до нас, является молитва «Под Твою милость прибегаем, Богородице». Впервые это песнопение мы встречаем в папирусе III века. Недаром его используют за богослужением как в Православной Церкви, так и в Католической. Не менее древним является гимн «Богородице Дево, радуйся», который состоит из ангельского приветствия Богородице в день Благовещения и восклицания праведной Елисаветы при встрече с Девой Марией (см. Евангелие от Луки, гл. 1). Первые записи об употреблении этого гимна в богослужении мы также находим на одном из папирусов, найденном в египетском городе Луксоре. Это песнопение широко распространено как в православном, так и в западном богослужении.

 

[packermann]

I agree that Mary being the epitome of humility would not want her name be mentioned often.

But look where Mary is mentioned in Scripture.

St. Simeon prophesied to Mary that a sword (of sorrow) would pierce Mary's heart. From that time on Mary knew exactly the sufferings were waiting for her Adorable Child which caused her great suffering (imagine if it was revealed to you the great sufferings that will bring your child's death).

All the apostles abandoned Jesus when he was arrested. But Mary stayed with her Son when He died on the cross, not fearing the mob turning on her.

Mary caused Jesus to change His mind about changing the water into wine. One of the Ten Commandments is to "Honor your father and mother". He was without sin, so He obeyed His mother even though He was her Lord.

Jesus' bodily resurrection means that He brought his humanity into the Trinity. This means that He will always obey her as He did when He was on earth, such as at the wedding of Cana, not because she is His superior (she is always His maidservant), but because of His love for her.

 

[Nagomirov]

Tota pulchra es, Мария,
et macula originalis non est in te.
Vestimentum tuum candidum quasi nix, et facies tua sicut sol.
Tota pulchra es, Мария,
et macula originalis non est in te.
Tu gloria Jerusalem, tu laetitia Israel, tu honorificentia populi nostri.
Tota pulchra es, Maria.

Гимн 4 века, originalis было добавлено позже. Изначально — et macula non est in te — прямая цитата из Песни песней 4:7. В оригинале там просто macula non est in the (и скверны нет в Тебе). Слово originalis (первородной) добавлено уже в Средние века. Но сам гимн является древним, 4 век.

 

[Nagomirov]

Catacombs of Priscilla. The Most Ancient Image of the Mother of God​

 

[Nagomirov]

Ну и нужно понимать, что роль Божией Матери колоссально возрастает после несторианских споров! Плюс на это накладывается возрастающий культ святых, возрастал и культ Божией Матери. Догматическое богословие формировалось в Церкви. И это хорошо, мы не протестанты, нет. В самые древние времена, Божия Матерь уже почиталась христианами, Её изображали, Ей писали гимны, к Ней взывали, молитвенно обращались. Есть свидетельства упоминания термина "Богородица": Ипполитом Римским, Оригеном, Петром Александрийским. Даже до Эфесского Собора (431 г.) имя Богородицы было критерием истинной веры, отличительным знаком Православия. Уже святой Григорий Богослов предупреждает Клидония: «Кто не исповедует Марию Богородицей, тот чужд Богу» (Epist. 101).