Mary and Joseph

Justified112 · Mar 31, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
No it isn't , you simply are understudied in Jewish Culture and Greek. The evidence is right there. No Jew alive would have trusted his mother to a member outside his family while his blood relative was alive. Neither would a man enter a woman if God himself had dwelt within her.

Jesus did not entrust Mary to His brothers because His brothers were not saved and rejected Him as the Messiah.

And once Jesus was born, Mary was free to consummate her marriage with Joseph and they did. They did not have this unhealthy obsession with Mary nor did they treat her as a god the way so many do, now. Mary is only mentioned ONE time in the book of Acts and never again. She plays no role in the theology of the NT contained in either Gospels or epistles. She is never exalted or venerated ever, in the Bible.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 31, 2019

Justified112 said:
Jesus did not entrust Mary to His brothers because His brothers were not saved and rejected Him as the Messiah.

And once Jesus was born, Mary was free to consummate her marriage with Joseph and they did. They did not have this unhealthy obsession with Mary nor did they treat her as a god the way so many do, now. Mary is only mentioned ONE time in the book of Acts and never again. She plays no role in the theology of the NT contained in either Gospels or epistles. She is never exalted or venerated ever, in the Bible.

When exactly did the apostle James reject Christ as the messiah?

Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars

Luke 1:43
And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Luke 1:48
For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Justified112 · Mar 31, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
Yet in the New Testament we see the Apostles passing on that gift through the laying of the hands on the elders they appointed, and then telling us to follow them. Most of those elders had writings of their own and were then martyred. Are you saying their works weren't authoritative and that they were lying and didn't have the Holy Spirit?

Apostolic succession is a myth. And beyond the historical value of their works, their writings have little to no value.

Again, I have a source that is far more reliable than writings of dead "saints." I have the living Word of God. If you cannot actually prove the perpetual virginity of Mary from the Bible, you really have nothing to offer that I would take seriously.

Justified112 · Mar 31, 2019

☦Marius☦ said:
When exactly did the apostle James reject Christ as the messiah?

During Jesus earthly ministry.

Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

That is referring to Israel.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 31, 2019

Justified112 said:
Apostolic succession is a myth. And beyond the historical value of their works, their writings have little to no value.

Again, I have a source that is far more reliable than writings of dead "saints." I have the living Word of God. If you cannot actually prove the perpetual virginity of Mary from the Bible, you really have nothing to offer that I would take seriously.

Acts 8:17
Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

2 Timothy 1:6
For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

Acts 11:30
And they did so, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.

Acts 15:2
Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question

Acts 15:4
they were welcomed by the church, and the apostles and the elders

Acts 6:3
Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty.

1 timothy 15:17
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

Titus 1:5
This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you

Acts 14:23
And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

1 Thes 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you

Yeah total myth.

☦Marius☦ · Mar 31, 2019

Justified112 said:
During Jesus earthly ministry.

That is referring to Israel.

Israel is about to give Birth to a child? Interesting.

And verse reference for James rejecting Christ?

prodromos · Mar 31, 2019

Justified112 said:
You are claiming that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Your problem is that you can't actually make a biblical case for it.

We can and have. You should pay closer attention.

prodromos · Mar 31, 2019

Justified112 said:
Jesus did not entrust Mary to His brothers because His brothers were not saved and rejected Him as the Messiah.

They all believed after the resurrection.
Acts 1:14

All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Alithis · Mar 31, 2019

HTacianas said:
That is your opinion. And I don't hold to it, for a number of reasons. For one, the gospel of James, as we have been discussing, was written around 150 or so AD. For someone to have invented the idea the "tradition of joseph being a widower" it would have to have been very early on in Christianity. The second, and primary reason I do not hold to your opinion is that the Council of Nicea, convening in 325 AD and composed of men who spoke the original language of the new testament, declared the virginity of Mary to be the belief of the Church. Those were men who were quite familiar with the new testament, and as I already said, were native speakers of the original language. Even more telling is that those same men condemned the gospel of James as a forgery. Even though it supported their beliefs they refused to accept the book as canonical. It shows they were honest.

? No one disputing that mary was a virgin at the time The baby placed in her grew and was birthed.
She then was a wife to her husband joseph and they had Kids..
So.perpetual virginity.. Is a myth .
The Gospel of James is a fairy tale to say the least and stands in direct contradiction and opposition to all other scripture.

Alithis · Mar 31, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
If she was 14, if, she was a child herself. I know many 14 year olds. Not one of them belongs with an adult male.

As others have pointed out.. The bible doesnt mention her age...
Its unlikely she was 14 .. Virginity was valued far more at that time and thrown away at risk of death by stoning . so far more common fpsor many woman to be virgins untill marriage.
The book " the infant gospel of James "tries to say Joseph was only given mary to be a guardian for her.. There for they were not intimate. A Full contradiction and disagreement of all other scripture..
Which states to Joseph..Do not be afraid to take mary as your Wife..
Now we are all grown ups and we know how a marriage between husband and wife is consummated ...
And as you say..we know scripture says very straight forwardly that mary and Joseph had other children .
You have to really mangle the scriptures in gross deviations to even pretend it means anything else.

HTacianas · Mar 31, 2019

Alithis said:
? No one disputing that mary was a virgin at the time The baby placed in her grew and was birthed.
She then was a wife to her husband joseph and they had Kids..
So.perpetual virginity.. Is a myth .
The Gospel of James is a fairy tale to say the least and stands in direct contradiction and opposition to all other scripture.

You say "she was a wife.....and they had kids" but there is nothing recorded that says that. You are speculating. The Church has always held that Mary had no other children. I can believe the Church or I can accept your speculation.

What do you make of this:

Jhn 19:26 - When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!”

Jhn 19:27 - Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 31, 2019

HTacianas said:
You say "she was a wife.....and they had kids" but there is nothing recorded that says that. You are speculating. The Church has always held that Mary had no other children. I can believe the Church or I can accept your speculation.

What do you make of this:

Jhn 19:26 - When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!”

Jhn 19:27 - Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

Selene03 · Mar 31, 2019

DamianWarS said:
in order to have a half brother/sister one biological parent needs to be the same. Joseph is eliminated as he cannot be the biological Father of Jesus. This leaves Mary as the common link between Jesus and his half-siblings of Mary and Joseph.

Mary didn't have any other children other than Jesus. James is not Jesus' brother nor his half-brother. In the original text of the gospel, the Greek word "adelphos" was used. However, "adelphos" does not just mean blood brothers born of the same parents. The word was also used to describe half-brothers, cousins, nephews, and uncles. The problem is the English translation. In the Hebrew and Aramaic language, there are no words for cousins, nephews, half-brothers; so the Greek word "adelphos" was used to capture all these meanings for male relatives.

The Christians would often point to Mark 6:3, which stated that James was the brother of Jesus. However, upon closer examination of the Bible, we find that it also stated that James was the son of Mary of Cleophas.

Mark 15:40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph, and Salome.

We know that this Mary (the mother of James) was NOT Jesus' mother because Jesus' mother was at the foot of the cross, watching her son dying. This Mary, who was James' mother, was watching from a distance with Mary Magdalene. These two women later drew closer to the cross. So, who was Mary of Cleophas. The Bible says that she was our Blessed mother's sister.

John 19:25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Therefore, James was not the brother of Jesus. Jesus and James were cousins.

Selene03 · Mar 31, 2019

Justified112 said:
Yes, the burden is on you. You are claiming that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Your problem is that you can't actually make a biblical case for it. You have to make appeals outside of the Bible, because the whole thing about the perpetual virginity of Mary is post biblical.

Mary was and remained a virgin. Just look at how she answered the Angel Gabriel when he told her she would have a child. According to the Bible:

Luke 1:30-34 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. “And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

What is wrong with Mary's response (which I placed in bold)? Here was a young girl who was going to get married. An angel comes to her, telling her that she will have a Son who shall be called Jesus. And Mary asked "HOW?" That's a very odd response coming from a girl about to get married. Any woman in that position would conclude that she and her husband would have a son after the consummation of the marriage. But Mary's response was "HOW can this be since I do not know a man?" Actually, she does know one man.....Joseph. The reason she gave that kind of response is already evident. Mary had no plans of ever consummating her marriage. After that, the angel told her "HOW" she would conceive, and it had nothing to do with any man.

Mary remained a perpetual virgin because she carried Christ in her womb, and Christ passed through her womb and out into the world. Because Christ was in her womb and passed through her womb as though it was a gateway into this world, no other person can be conceived in Mary's womb (Ezekiel 44:2).

Alithis · Mar 31, 2019

HTacianas said:
You say "she was a wife.....and they had kids" but there is nothing recorded that says that. You are speculating. The Church has always held that Mary had no other children. I can believe the Church or I can accept your speculation.

What do you make of this:

Jhn 19:26 - When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!”

Jhn 19:27 - Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

Could you be any more ambiguous..
Sorry but "your making the assumption" that your church is over and above GODS word"
I dont adhere to your Church .

You ignore so much scripture.
. there no point discussing it with you.
Youve obviously decided Gods word is wrong and your church is right.

Praise God i dont follow your church .
But i Do follow JESUS..
Cant follow both when they so.obviously disagree

Alithis · Mar 31, 2019

Selene03 said:
Mary was and remained a virgin. Just look at how she answered the Angel Gabriel when he told her she would have a child. According to the Bible:

Luke 1:30-34 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. “And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

What is wrong with Mary's response (which I placed in bold)? Here was a young girl who was going to get married. An angel comes to her, telling her that she will have a Son who shall be called Jesus. And Mary asked "HOW?" That's a very odd response coming from a girl about to get married. Any woman in that position would conclude that she and her husband would have a son after the consummation of the marriage. But Mary's response was "HOW can this be since I do not know a man?" Actually, she does know one man.....Joseph. The reason she gave that kind of response is already evident. Mary had no plans on consummating her marriage. After that, the angel told her "HOW" she would conceive, and it had nothing to do with any man.

Lol .. That is laughable. Always has been , always will be.

Selene03 · Mar 31, 2019

Alithis said:
Lol .. That is laughable. Always has been , always will be.

Then why not refute it?

Alithis · Mar 31, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:

Its quite unbelievable the extent they go to to twist manipulate and mangle the simple written scripture.
Notice how they said .."you say"..s..she was wife..
But thats so dishonest. I didnt say it..the scripture does..
Its just so sad there is no love for truth in any of it.
There is love for tradition OVER truth.
And as is always the case..people will Always serve that which they love the most ..

Alithis · Mar 31, 2019

Selene03 said:
Then why not refute it?

Dont need to it doesn't even imply what your saying.
Not even close..you actually trying to refute the scripture

Selene03 · Mar 31, 2019

Alithis said:
Dont need to it doesn't even imply what your saying.
Not even close..you actually trying to refute the scripture

On the contrary, it does support what I say, which is the very reason why you cannot refute it. Upon closer examination, it is true that Mary does indeed know one man.....Joseph the person whom she was going to marry. Yet, she asked "HOW" can she conceived when she doesn't know any man. There is only one reason for that answer, and that reason supports what I wrote......unless of course, you have an answer as to why she gave such as odd response?

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