Mary and Joseph

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I don't desire contact with ancient Christianity. I desire contact with Christ.

cool, I know that.

ah, so you believe that you can still end up in hell, given you died right now?

I never believed that the Orthodox Church is lying. They sincerely believe what they say.
whether or not they are CORRECT is the issue, not their lack of honesty!

I look at it like this. We KNOW man cannot acheive perfection. He will make mistakes, pretty much in every action he takes. Yet for some reason, we are to believe that a succession of men for 2000 years has NEVER let one iota of error slip in to teachings, and we are led to believe that the passage that states that Hell will not prevail of the Children of God, that we are promised any such thing. Personally, anyone who claims to have it 100% right is immediately suspect, as I know that this si something we cannot acheive.

We never claimed to have anything 100% correct... and never would.

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

you misunderstand. My goal is not doing things like the ancient Christians. My goal is not acting like them. My goal is Christ, not the early Christians.

Yeah I can see your point, having to be like them.. sacrificing themselves for truth...

and I can see how you do not wat to follow the faith they laid down, seeing how 99% of your personal belief would have to change.

UpHIll, false dichotomy- there is no such thing a Christ vrs. ancient Christianity.

 

[Benedicta00]

We never claimed to have anything 100% correct... and never would.

Forgive me...

Really? So you think your doctrine has a margin of error?

Forgive me, OUSA, but I think that is a bit extreme. I think you are just trying to pander to uphill.

You know the faith of the EC does not deceive and can not be deceived

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Really? So you think your doctrine has a margin of error?

Forgive me, OUSA, but I think that is a bit extreme. I think you are just trying to pander to uphill.

You know the faith of the EC does not deceive and can not be deceived

Does the RCC claim to be 100% error free in all things concerning Christianity?

Oh wait, yeah I guess they do... it's called infallability.

We have no such doctrine. We accept that we are fallable humans, and rely on Christ's grace to keep us constantly corrected.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yeah I can see your point, having to be like them.. sacrificing themselves for truth...

and I can see how you do not wat to follow the faith they laid down, seeing how 99% of your personal belief would have to change.

UpHIll, false dichotomy- there is no such thing a Christ vrs. ancient Christianity.

sigh... you are deliberately missing what I am saying.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Does the RCC claim to be 100% error free in all things concerning Christianity?

Oh wait, yeah I guess they do... it's called infallability.

We have no such doctrine. We accept that we are fallable humans, and rely on Christ's grace to keep us constantly corrected.

Forgive me...

so the Orthodox church concedes that something that they are teaching MAY be error? this is the first I've heard of that.

 

[PookySmiley]

If, in fact, Joseph and Mary ever had relations. The majority of Christians believe that Mary and Joseph never did so, and that Joseph was betrothed to Mary to be her guardian, not her lover.

Whoa!
The majority of Christians believe that Joseph and Mary were married, they had children after the birth of Jesus.
This is based on the word of God as written in the Bible. Where most Christians, the vast majority of Christians, get their information about God and what He would have us do and be.

 

[PookySmiley]

Okay, if you don't want to appeal to majority, how about historicity.....The catholic and Orthodox, who make up the majority of Christianity, can also trace their belief in the perpetual virginity straight to their apostolic origins. That would pretty much makes belief in the existance of Mary and Joseph's sex life a thing of modern innovation.

Unless the apostles were in the bedroom with Mary and Joseph, they really have no idea what they were doing.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Whoa!
The majority of Christians believe that Joseph and Mary were married, they had children after the birth of Jesus.
This is based on the word of God as written in the Bible. Where most Christians, the vast majority of Christians, get their information about God and what He would have us do and be.

I'm afraid he's right, actually. The majority of Christians would include Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Anglican (they believe that too, right?) as opposed to the body of Christians that don't believe it to be so.

however, as is has been said, majority belief doesn't equal truth.

The majority of people believed the sun revolved around the earth, at one point.

 

[ScottBot]

Whoa!
The majority of Christians believe that Joseph and Mary were married, they had children after the birth of Jesus.
This is based on the word of God as written in the Bible. Where most Christians, the vast majority of Christians, get their information about God and what He would have us do and be.

Correction, of the 2.1 billion Christians:
1.1 billion Catholics
500 million Eastern Orthodox
150 million Anglicans (roughly half)

believe in Mary's Perpetual virginity, not to mention the unknown number of evangelicals who are coming around to this position.

That is about 75% of all Christianity that believes in the PV, so, yes, the MAJORITY of Christians believe what the Church has always beleived, that Mary never had relations with Joseph and Jesus was her only child.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Whoa!
The majority of Christians believe that Joseph and Mary were married, they had children after the birth of Jesus.
This is based on the word of God as written in the Bible. Where most Christians, the vast majority of Christians, get their information about God and what He would have us do and be.

Incorrect.

The majority of Christians are Catholic or Orthodox.

And don't forget to count those Christians of the past, their numbers count as well.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Correction, of the 2.1 billion Christians:
1.1 billion Catholics
500 million Eastern Orthodox
150 million Anglicans (roughly half)

believe in Mary's Perpetual virginity, not to mention the unknown number of evangelicals who are coming around to this position.

That is about 75% of all Christianity that believes in the PV, so, yes, the MAJORITY of Christians believe what the Church has always beleived, that Mary never had relations with Joseph and Jesus was her only child.

beat ya to it, Scott.

 

[ScottBot]

I'm afraid he's right, actually. The majority of Christians would include Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Anglican (they believe that too, right?) as opposed to the body of Christians that don't believe it to be so.

however, as is has been said, majority belief doesn't equal truth.

The majority of people believed the sun revolved around the earth, at one point.

Well, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and King Henry believed it, which takes us to roughly the mid 16th century, making the idea of carnal relations between Joseph and Mary a historically modern phenomenon and, what do you call it,........ Oh ya, a doctrine of men.

 

[ScottBot]

beat ya to it, Scott.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

so the Orthodox church concedes that something that they are teaching MAY be error? this is the first I've heard of that.

Could be... but then, we do our absolute best not to be.

We have disagreements amongst ourselves as well.

As I said, Infallability is not a doctrine of The Orthodox Church.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Well, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and King Henry believed it, which takes us to roughly the mid 16th century, making the idea of carnal relations between Joseph and Mary a historically modern phenomenon and, what do you call it,........ Oh ya, a doctrine of men.

x'cept it ain't a doctrine.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Could be... but then, we do our absolute best not to be.

We have disagreements amongst ourselves as well.

As I said, Infallability is not a doctrine of The Orthodox Church.

Forgive me...

Interesting. I shall keep that in mind.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

In fact, the only thing dogmatically stated about Mary in The Orthodox Church is the fact that she is Theotokos.

Everything else is pious belief not dogma.

Now, I could be wrong and another Orthodox Christian may wish to correct me... but Mary's ever-virginity has not been dogmatically stated by The Orthodox Church. However, I don't know of an Orthodox Christian that denies it either.

Forgive me...

 

[PookySmiley]

If people choose to believe something that is in direct contradiction to scripture, that's very sad. Scripture says they married, scripture says Jesus had siblings. What your church's leaders have to say about it is clearly wrong.

 

[Uphill Battle]

In fact, the only thing dogmatically stated about Mary in The Orthodox Church is the fact that she is Theotokos.

Everything else is pious belief not dogma.

Now, I could be wrong and another Orthodox Christian may wish to correct me... but Mary's ever-virginity has not been dogmatically stated by The Orthodox Church. However, I don't know of an Orthodox Christian that denies it either.

Forgive me...

and can I be part of the Orthodox church if I DON't believe it? (or, at the very least, hold a reverent agnosticism towards it, holding no strong position on the matter.)