Martin Luther

[Punchy]

Martin Luther's own words should suggest that he, and the "reformation" he founded, were flawed from the very beginning:

LUTHER'S MORALS

by Fr. William Most

(The first two items were checked in standard editions of
Luther's works directly. The 5 items beneath are cited from P. F.
O'Hare, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e Facts About Luther> (Tan, Rockford, 1987 ). O'Hare
seems to have worked carefully, and gives exact references for
everything. Yet it is important to check things against the
standard editions. The last five items have not yet been checked,
hard to find a copy of De Wette).

1. <Letter to Melanchthon>, August 1, 1521 (American Edition,
<Luther's Works>, vol. 48, pp. 281-82, edited by H. Lehmann,
Fortress, 1963): "If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a
true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear
a true [p. 282] and not a fictitious sin. God does not save
people who are only fictitious sinners. <Be a sinner and sin
boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly... .
as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin... . No sin
will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication
and murder a thousand times a day.>"(emphasis added).

2. <Letter 501 to Melanchthon>: "Pecca fortiter, sed crede
fortius" In the light of the standard version of the first item
above, we render: "Sin boldly (or bravely) but believe still more
boldly (or bravely)."

***

1."We must remove the Decalogue [ten commandments] out of sight
and heart."(De Wette, 4, 188- cited in P. F. O'Hare, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e Facts
About Luther>, Rockford, 1987, p. 311 -De Wette was a protestant
scholar who collected the most significant sayings of Luther in
several volumes).

2."They are fools who attempt to overcome temptations [to lust]
by fasting, prayer and chastisement. For such temptations and
immoral attacks are easily overcome when there are plenty of
maidens and women" (Cited from O'Hare p. 311).

3."I sit here in idleness and pray, alas, little, and sigh not
for the Church of God. Much more am I consumed by the fires of my
unbridled flesh. In a word, I who should burn of the spirit, am
consumed by the flesh, and by lasciviousness" (De Wette 2. 22.

cited in O'Hare p. 3l4.

4."I burn with a thousand flames in my unsubdued flesh: I feel
myself carried on with rage towards women that approaches
madness. I who ought to be fervent in spirit, am only fervent in
impurity." (<Table Talk> cited in O'Hare p. 315).

5. On Nov. 25, 1521 he wrote to the Augustinians in Wittenberg:
"With how much pain and labor did I scarcely justify my
conscience that I alone should proceed against the Pope, hold him
for Antichrist, and the bishops for his apostles. How often did
my heart punish me and reproach me with this strong argument:"Art
thou alone wise? Could all the others err and have erred for a
long time? How if thou errest and leadest into error so many
people who would all be damned forever?" (<De Wette>, 2. 107,
cited in O'Hare p. 195).
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/LUTHMOR.TXT

The fruits of the "reformation" have been the fragmentation and disunity of the Western Church. When one considers its foundation, it is not hard to figure out why.

Shlomo.

 

[doveofthelord]

well luthrens broke up from cathlocism some time ago.there leader was martin.for that the catolics kinnda held a grudge.this just could be a work of that seeming that it comes from ewtn.but how ever called him a prophet?

 

[sunlover1]

Yes, his own words do suggest that he was 'flawed'.



I didn't know he was called a prophet, but being a sinner doesn't disqualify one from being a prophet either.

 

[Punchy]

Yes, his own words do suggest that he was 'flawed'.



I didn't know he was called a prophet, but being a sinner doesn't disqualify one from being a prophet either.

One could consider him a false prophet by the fruits and the falsehoods of his teachings.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Some thoughts....


1. Dr. Martin Luther was a mere mortal - and sinful at that. No one - certainly not any Lutheran known to me - claims otherwise.


2. Lutherans don't have an Infallible Pope. Catholic should not impose their view upon Lutherans who don't share it.


3. Dr. Martin Luther is an authority on nothing to anyone. He was a student of Holy Scriptures (good enough to be a professor at a Catholic University and to earn a Doctorate in biblical languages). But he asked to be held accountable for EVERYTHING he taught - and he was, and he is.


4. Yes, especially after a couple of beers, Luther said things he CERTAINLY should not have said. No one denies this.


5. Lutherans consider God to be infallible, not themselves. They consider His Holy Scriptures to be inerrant, not Martin Luther.


6. Luther's was a day when such talk was common speech - as was a very, very strong polemic - especially in private letters and speech. Things are the exact opposite today - as we live in this day of hyper political correctness and where we are super sensitive that everything we say - no matter where or in what context - could become public and could be use against us. That just wasn't the case in early 16th Century Germany. We need to place this singular sinful altogether mortal man in the context of when and where he lived. But, again, see the 5 points above.



I hope that clarifies things.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[Punchy]

What are the fruits of the Protestant "Reformation"?

Matthew 7:15 - 23 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and do mighty works in your name? And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, depart from me you evildoers."

 

[mooduck1]

Some thoughts....


1. Dr. Martin Luther was a mere mortal - and sinful at that. No one - certainly not any Lutheran known to me - claims otherwise.


2. Lutherans don't have an Infallible Pope. Catholic should not impose their view upon Lutherans who don't share it.


3. Dr. Martin Luther is an authority on nothing to anyone. He was a student of Holy Scriptures (good enough to be a professor at a Catholic University and to earn a Doctorate in biblical languages). But he asked to be held accountable for EVERYTHING he taught - and he was, and he is.


4. Yes, especially after a couple of beers, Luther said things he CERTAINLY should not have said. No one denies this.


5. Lutherans consider God to be infallible, not themselves. They consider His Holy Scriptures to be inerrant, not Martin Luther.


6. Luther's was a day when such talk was common speech - as was a very, very strong polemic - especially in private letters and speech. Things are the exact opposite today - as we live in this day of hyper political correctness and where we are super sensitive that everything we say - no matter where or in what context - could become public and could be use against us. That just wasn't the case in early 16th Century Germany. We need to place this singular sinful altogether mortal man in the context of when and where he lived. But, again, see the 5 points above.



I hope that clarifies things.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

Agreed. Luther never claimed infallibility, under any cercumstances. Was the reformation flawed? Of Course!....But so was the Church. Luther would have advised us to choose the lessor of 2 evils though..

 

[Punchy]

Agreed. Luther never claimed infallibility, under any cercumstances. Was the reformation flawed? Of Course!....But so was the Church. Luther would have advised us to choose the lessor of 2 evils though..

Is Christianity fragmenting into thousands of denominations the lesser of two evils?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Agreed. Luther never claimed infallibility, under any cercumstances. Was the reformation flawed? Of Course!....But so was the Church. Luther would have advised us to choose the lessor of 2 evils though..

Let's see. There are Catholics and Protestants. What would a third one be i could pick?

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

You will notice that the quotes are from OHare.

That work is not worth the paper it was written on.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Melethiel]

It's always better to read the works themselves than highly out-of-context quotes cherry picked by a highly biased author.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Is Christianity fragmenting into thousands of denominations the lesser of two evils?

It is historical nonsense to blame the fragmentation of Protestantism on Martin Luther or other Evangelical Catholics.

We were excommunicated with no fair hearing of our beliefs. Other Protestants just up and left, like the schismatics they are.

We maintain an independent church out of unfortunate necessity since we are seperated from Mother Church by no choice of our own and by no fair application of canon law. Protestants form independent churches because they believe they are using the Scriptures as a manual to reconstruct the apostolic church.

Martin Luther attempted to do what every other Doctor of the Church tried to do, from St. Athanasius to St. Anselm to St. Thomas Aquinas- correct doctrinal and ethical errors in the church but reforming the church. But unlike the rest, Martin Luther did not receive a fair hearing.

Why? Somebody tell us why we cannot receive a fair hearing in Rome, and never have?

We wanted to reformed, not break with the church. And we still want back in, but cannot swear to adhere to Catholic doctrines laid down in the Dogmatic Constitution and Catechism- doctrines laid forth by councils that refused to consider every viewpoint and hear those viewpoints defended by their own proponents.

Tell me Catholics, who was the greater heretic- Arius or Martin Luther? And yet Arius was allowed to defend his own teachings at Nicea. Why not Luther at Worms or Trent?

The reformation is a great tragedy. Protestantism is, in large part, a great tragedy. But it is a tragedy you cannot place solely or even primarily at the feet of Martin Luther. The late medieval Catholics who refused to abide by their own standards of canon law and the Protestant restorationists and egoists are just as much and more to blame.

 

[dave90]

bump

 

[Punchy]

Let's see. There are Catholics and Protestants. What would a third one be i could pick?

Have you never heard of the ORTHODOX CHURCH???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Please don't tell me that you are unfamiliar with the ancient Christian faith, as founded by Jesus and the Apostles.

In claiming that individuals have the right to interpret Scripture for themselves, without the truths of Apostolic Tradition, one opens the flood gates for thousands of individuals to start their own denominations based on their own particular interpretations.

Shlomo.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The fruits of the "reformation" have been the fragmentation and disunity of the Western Church. When one considers its foundation, it is not hard to figure out why.

Shlomo.

Protestantism, in function, is a mirror image of roman catholicism. That fragmentation of which you speak isn't an original creation of protestantism. Protestantism is simply the funtional product of its birth mother, the rcc.

BTW&DM

 

[BeforeThereWas]

In claiming that individuals have the right to interpret Scripture for themselves, without the truths of Apostolic Tradition, one opens the flood gates for thousands of individuals to start their own denominations based on their own particular interpretations.

Apastolic tradition? Out of curiosity, how do you define that tradition?

BTW&DM

 

[Punchy]

Apastolic tradition? Out of curiosity, how do you define that tradition?

BTW&DM

It is found in the writings of the church fathers, those close in proximity and time to the original authors of the New Testament and, therefore, are better qualified at understanding Scripture than 20th century Americans.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Protestantism, in function, is a mirror image of roman catholicism.

Not anywhere close . . . .

That fragmentation of which you speak isn't an original creation of protestantism. Protestantism is simply the funtional product of its birth mother, the rcc.

BTW&DM

Not at all . . . . Catholicism did not give birth to Protestantism . . .

Revolt and rebellion to Apostolic teaching and truth gave birth to Protestantism . .





.

 

[tulc]

Revolt and rebellion to Apostolic teaching and truth gave birth to Protestantism . .

LOL! One man calls it "rebellion" another man sees it as just "trying to follow God". You don't like it? I'm sorry. You think we're wrong? Pray for us. We're doing what we feel led to do.
tulc(who's worse then a Lutheran, he's an anabaptist! both sides burned his people at the stake!)

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

My perspective...

Protestantism, in function, is a mirror image of roman catholicism.

They certainly are VERY close...

When I told my priest that I agree with the CC at least 95% of the time, he chuckled and commented that's a lot better than most Catholics (he's right!!) and that he agreed with my denomination at least 95% of the time, too.


There are a couple of things we clearly disagree on, for example: Sola Scriptura rather than Sola Ecclesia, and Lutherans embrace the one holy catholic church as the communion of saints/mystical union of all believers - not just our own particular denomination. And there are some things Catholics teach are dogmas of highest importance and greatest certainty that we leave open (not denied but not DOGMA either), for example the Assumption of Mary, Aristotle's theory of "accidents" as the explaination for the manner of presence of the bread and wine in the Holy Eucharist. The agreement and unity, however, is absolutely stunning.


It is true that Pope Leo excommunicated Luther (some would say illegally - in violation of canon law) and thus divided the Catholic denomination - something I view as unfortunate (at least) but that's what he did. The resulting split is nothing I rejoice in.


Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah



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