• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Martin Luther

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟28,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
In response to Q -

Just for clarification - I never tried to "read Calvinism into Luther's work." It was just something I noticed and thought I would mention it here. I have a long way to go before I am half as well read as many of those who post here.
If I remember correctly - wasn't it only in 1515 that he nailed the 95' to door? I would have to look at all of his writings - over the course of his entire lifetime to make an "academic" assesment I suppose.

Also - as a sidenote - it was never my intention to debate - but to discuss the matter in hopes of furthering my own knowledge and understanding. Quite frankly I take your "academic falacy" comment as an insult. I appreciate the recommended resources however. Thanks for that at least....
 
Upvote 0

Qoheleth

Byzantine Catholic
Jul 8, 2004
2,702
142
✟18,872.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
BB said:
In response to Q -

Just for clarification - I never tried to "read Calvinism into Luther's work." It was just something I noticed and thought I would mention it here. I have a long way to go before I am half as well read as many of those who post here.
If I remember correctly - wasn't it only in 1515 that he nailed the 95' to door? I would have to look at all of his writings - over the course of his entire lifetime to make an "academic" assesment I suppose.

Also - as a sidenote - it was never my intention to debate - but to discuss the matter in hopes of furthering my own knowledge and understanding. Quite frankly I take your "academic falacy" comment as an insult. I appreciate the recommended resources however. Thanks for that at least....

I never said you read Calvin into Luthers work. It was a general statement.

Secondly, I did not respond to the OP so that a debate may ensue, only to share some thoughts. Again, it was a general statement.

Lastly, the "academic fallacy" comment was not directed personally at you. It was yet another general observation.

Im sorry if I offended, it certainly was not my intention.

Q
 
Upvote 0

Tertiumquid

Regular Member
Jul 26, 2003
342
41
Visit site
✟997.00
Faith
Protestant
Hi Q-

Qoheleth said:
I suggest you read Theologia Germanica


I thumbed through this book in a used bookstore about 3 years ago- still kicking myself for not buying it. I am curious about how you think it enters into the discussion comparing Luther/Calvin on predestination (and the other TULIP doctrines).


Qoheleth said:
and after these, ask yourself if Luther is a Calvinist. I prefer not to debate this, Ive been down this road and wanted only to share a few resources.

I recall you and I discussing this once already.

While my general opinion has already been stated in this thread, I'd like to share a resource as well: Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966). I consider this book crucial to any study of Luther, and I say this not so much for you (you probably have it), but for others who may be interested in understanding Luther accurately. Many in the Reformed camp are never exposed to a fundamental understanding of Luther's theology. I will refer to this book momentarily:

Qoheleth said:
To read Calvin’s double predestinationism back into Luther is an academic fallacy. The better way is to read Luther on his own terms—not trying to squeeze him into Calvin’s mindset.


Yes and no (to put it in terms of paradox!). It is definately true that reading Luther accurately requires reading Luther according to his own theological paradigms, particulalry a basic understanding of his use of contrast and paradox.

Luther repeatedly exhorts his readers not to probe into the secret council of the "hidden God. However, what are those things which should not be probed? Luther lets us know it’s the deep mysteries of providence, election and reprobation. On the other hand, to only look at Luther’s understanding of the "revealed God" does not give us an adequate picture of Luther’s paradox of the "hidden/revealed God." One does not understand Luther's paradox without probing both sides to see what he means.

My understanding is that Luther did indeed attribute double predestination to the "hidden God." To prove this, I'd like to quote a section In Althaus' book at length:

“For Luther the assertion that God is God implicitly includes the fact that God alone works all in all together with the accompanying foreknowledge…. This determines not only man's outward but also his inner fate, his relationship to God in faith or unfaith, in obedience or disobedience. Here too man is completely in God's hands. Luther finds the biblical basis for this particularly in I Corinthians 12:6, "God works all in all." Luther expands the sense of this passage far beyond Paul's meaning in its original setting. It appears very frequently in Luther's thought."



"The Bible in addition bears witness, and experience confirms the fact, that men actually relate themselves differently to the word of God. Some are open to faith; others remain closed to it. Accordingly, the Bible expects human history to end in a twofold way. Not all will be blessed; and many will be lost. Luther can, in the context of his assertion that God works all in all, find the ultimate cause in God himself, in his intention, and in his working. This decision is not made by man's supposedly free will, but only by God's willing and working. He chooses some to be saved and he rejects the others without an apparent reason for either choice. He gives faith to one through the working of His Spirit; and he refuses to give faith to others so that they are bound in their unbelief. Salvation and destruction thus result from God's previous decision and his corresponding twofold activity. God's choice is not based on the individual's condition; it establishes this condition. This means an unconditional, eternal predestination both to salvation and to damnation."



Luther does not reach this conclusion on the basis of philosophical speculation about God, but finds it in the Scripture. He experienced it in God's relationship to him personally; and the God whom he thus personally experienced is the very same God who speaks and is proclaimed in the Scripture. Paul especially testified to Luther that God makes this twofold decision and that he hardens those who are lost: "God has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills" (Rom. 9:18). Paul illustrates this with the picture of the potter making vessels of honor as well as dishonor out of the same clay (Rom. 9: 20 ff.). In addition, Paul quotes Malachi, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" (Rom. 9:13). And Paul specifically refers to God's treatment of Pharaoh (Rom. 9:17)



"The position Scripture thus presented to Luther was also the inescapable result of his understanding of God. He even cites man's innate rational concept of God as an additional proof. It seems blasphemous even to think that God does not work man's decision to believe or not to believe, as though God could be surprised by man's choice and men might be saved or lost without God knowing it. Whoever so thinks denies that God is God and makes fun of Him as though he were a ridiculous idol." Whoever speaks seriously of God must necessarily teach his foreknowledge and his unconditional determination of all things."



"Luther thus finds a twofold will of God in the Scripture. Together with statements about God's all-inclusive grace are other statements which express another willing and working of God which stands with his willing and working of salvation. Together with grace stands wrath, a wrath which rejects and which is no longer a part of love; and this is found not only in the Old but also in the New Testament. Luther did not draw a two-sided picture of God from his own imagination, but he saw it already present in Scripture. The God of the Bible is not unequivocally the God of the gospel. The God of the Bible is not only the God of all grace but is also the God who, if he wills, hardens and rejects. This God even treats a man equivocally: he offers his grace in the word and yet refuses to give his Spirit to bring about his conversion. He can even harden a man—in all this Luther does not go in substance beyond the difficult passages of Scripture which describe God as hardening a man's heart."



"Luther, however, summarized the substance of such scriptural statements in the sharpest possible expressions. In The Bondage of the Will he teaches that God has a double will, even a double reality. The God revealed and preached in the gospel must be distinguished from the hidden God who is not preached, the God who works all things. God's word is not the same as "God himself." God, through his word, approaches man with the mercy which (according to Ezekiel 33) does not seek the death of the sinner but that he turn and live. But the hidden will of God, the will we must fear, "determines for itself which and what sort of men it chooses to enable to participate in this mercy offered through the proclamation." God "does not will the death of the sinner, that is, according to his word; he does, however, will it according to his inscrutable will." God revealed in his word mourns the sinner's death and seeks to save him from it. "God hidden in his majesty, on the other hand, does not mourn the sinner's death, or abrogate it, but works life and death in everything in all. For God has not limited himself to his word but retains his freedom over everything. . . . God does many things that he does not show us through his word. He also wills many things his word does not show us."



Source: The Theology of Martin Luther 274-276

Regards,
James Swan
http://www.ntrmin.org/rccorner-reformation.htm
 
Upvote 0

Tertiumquid

Regular Member
Jul 26, 2003
342
41
Visit site
✟997.00
Faith
Protestant
I was just digging around on my computer and found an overview I did on a section from Luther's Bondage of the Will. Note: Luther’s words will be in blue. My commentary will be in black. Luther has been pounding Erasmus on not understanding the distinction between law and gospel in the previous pages. Erasmus thinks that because God exhorts people to repent in passages from the Old Testament, that all men have an innate ability to do so- that all men have the power of free will to stop sinning, and to turn to God and be saved. Luther rightly points out that the passages Erasmus utilizes are commands, and not gospel, or because Erasmus assumes free will, passages of gospel become passages of law.


Luther says, “It is the mark of a wise reader to notice which words in the Scripture are law and which are grace, so that he may not have everything muddled, like the filthy Sophists and the sleepy-headed Diatribe!” (Bondage of the Will, p. 166 Packer/Johnson translation). “…the commandments are not given inappropriately or pointlessly; but in order that through them proud, blind man may learn the plague of his own impotence, should he try to do what is commanded” (Ibid., 160). “…by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know his sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength…Gather together from the big concordances all the imperative words into one chaotic heap (not the words of promise, but the words of law and its demand)- and I shall at once declare that they always show, not what men can do, or do do, but what they should do!” (Ibid. 158).


Luther comes to Erasmus’ treatment of Ezekiel 18, where God says, “I desire not the death of a sinner, but that he should turn from his wicked way and live.” Luther interprets the verse to mean that God “is raising up and comforting the sinner as he lies under the torture of despair, in order that he might not break the bruised reed and quench the smoking flax, but create hope of pardon and salvation, so that he might rather be converted…and might live” (Ibid. 168). Luther though understands that many people are never convicted by their sin. Many people could care less that their sin that separates them from God. Many people never feel the conviction of the law. Why?


Luther goes on to say:


“As to why some are touched by the law and others not, so that some receive and others scorn the offer of grace, that is another question, which Ezekiel does not here discuss. He speaks of the published offer of God's mercy, not of the dreadful hidden will of God, Who, according to His own counsel, ordains such persons as He wills to receive and partake of the mercy preached and offered. This will is not to be inquired into, but to be reverently adored, as by far the most awesome secret of the Divine Majesty. He has kept it to Himself and forbidden us to know it; and it is much more worthy of reverence than an infinite number of Corycian caverns!”

Here Luther expounds on the Hidden God. Notice, Luther explains what the “secret will” of god is that we mustn’t probe: “(God) according to His own counsel, ordains such persons as He wills to receive and partake of the mercy preached and offered.” In other words, “why” those who experience no conviction from the law is a question that enters into the secret realm of God. This is the “dreadful” hidden will of God, where God “ordains” whom He will show mercy to.

Luther continues:

“When, now the Diatribe reasons thus: 'Does the righteous Lord deplore the death of His people which He Himself works in them? This seems too ridiculous'—-I reply, as I have already said: we must discuss God, or the will of God, preached, revealed, offered to us, and worshipped by us, in one way, and God not preached, nor revealed, nor offered to us, nor worshipped by us, in another way. Wherever God hides Himself, and wills to be unknown to us, there we have no concern. Here that sentiment: 'what is above us does not concern us', really holds good. Lest any should think that this distinction is my own, I am following Paul, who writes to the Thessalonians of Antichrist that 'he should exalt himself above all that is God preached and worshipped' (2 Thess. 2.4); clearly intimating that a man can be exalted above God as He is preached and worshipped, that is, above the word and worship of God, by which He is known to us and has dealings with us. But above God not worshipped and not preached, that is, God as He is in His own nature and Majesty, nothing can be exalted, but all things are under His powerful hand. Now, God in His own nature and majesty is to be left alone; in this regard, we have nothing to do with Him, nor does He wish us to deal with Him.”

I offer a strong “AMEN!” at this point. Most of the Reformed folks I know would join with me. None of us wants to probe God’s secret will. None of us tries to figure out on what basis or why God ordains his world the way he does. Why does the gospel saturate certain countries, but in other places it remains unknown? I don’t know. Why does God choose Israel and not some other ancient people? I don’t know. Why did God have me born in America and raised in a Christian home, rather than born in India in a Hindu home? I don’t know. Why was I convicted of my sin against a holy God, and my brother not? I don’t know.


Luther continues:

“We have to do with Him as clothed and displayed in His Word, by which He presents Himself to us. That is His glory and beauty, in which the Psalmist proclaims Him to be clothed (cf. Ps. 21.5). I say that the righteous God does not deplore the death of His people which He Himself works in them, but He deplores the death which He finds in His people and desires to remove from them. God preached works to the end that sin and death may be taken away, and we may be saved. 'He sent His word and healed them' (Ps. 107.20). But God hidden in Majesty neither deplores nor takes away death, but works life, and death, and all in all; nor has He set bounds to Himself by His Word, but has kept Himself free over all things.”

Excellent point. I love Luther’s words. The gospel is to be proclaimed! In my church, the gospel goes out every Sunday. The pastor offers salvation to all. First, my pastor will use the law as a means of convicting of sin, and the free offer of the Gospel. Who knows whose heart God may be working in, convicting of sin? We don’t know. The Bible doesn’t tell us which individuals God will draw unto himself, as directed by his secret will. Luther then contrasts this with God’s hidden will: God works “life and death” and is “free over all things.” Who can comprehend this? Indeed, Luther reminds us throughout this section just what the mysteries of the hidden God are. Luther continues:

“The Diatribe is deceived by its own ignorance in that it makes no distinction between God preached and God hidden, that is, between the Word of God and God Himself. God does many things which He does not show us in His Word, and He wills many things which He does not in His Word show us that He wills. Thus, He does not will the death of a sinner—that is, in His Word; but He wills it by His inscrutable will. At present, however, we must keep in view His Word and leave alone His inscrutable will; for it is by His Word, and not by His inscrutable will, that we must be guided. In any case, who can direct himself according to a will that is inscrutable and incomprehensible ? It is enough simply to know that there is in God an inscrutable will; what, why, and within what limits It wills, it is wholly unlawful to inquire, or wish to know, or be concerned about, or touch upon; we may only fear and adore!”

I totally agree with Luther. We don’t have access to why God chooses one and not another. We only have Christ of the Scriptures, who offers Himself as savior to sinners. We have the free offer of the gospel. We have the free offer of forgiveness. Why does God in his hidden-ness not save everybody? Why is not every person who has ever lived been issued a long list of the ways they have sinned against the law of God? Why has not every person been endowed with a free-will like Adam? Why has not the gospel been preached to every particular person who has ever lived? I don’t know. These belong to the secret council of God.

“So it is right to say: 'If God does not desire our death, it must be laid to the charge of our own will if we perish'; this, I repeat, is right if you spoke of God preached. For He desires that all men should be saved, in that He comes to all by the word of salvation, and the fault is in the will which does not receive Him; as He says in Matt. 23: 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not!' (v. 37). But why the Majesty does not remove or change this fault of will in every man (for it is not in the power of man to do it), or why He lays this fault to the charge of the will, when man cannot avoid it, it is not lawful to ask; and though you should ask much, you would never find out; as Paul says in Rom. 11: 'Who art thou that repliest against God?' (Rom. 9.20).”

Luther finds the reason why men are not saved in the fault of their own sin. Luther realizes the will is enslaved to sin. He says that God lays the fault in the fallen will of man. He then comes to face the secret will again: why has not God freed the will of every man so he could repent and believe? But who are we to ask such a question?

At this point, I can only suggest the interested reader go back and re-read the section I quoted from Paul Althaus’ The Theology Of Martin Luther. My understanding of Luther is not that he was a 5-point Calvinist, but that he understood the same thing Calvinists understand in regard to man’s salvation: God is sovereign- God has a hidden will, and that is not to be probed. I strongly admire Luther’s paradox of the hidden/revealed God. I think that many Calvinists can learn from it. There are many similarities for both theologies. The question I think that should be discussed is did John Calvin probe the hidden will of God? Does Calvinism go too far? Who is being true to the revealed will of God in the Scriptures? In regard to Luther, such questions worthy of discussion are: What mysteries did Luther attribute to the hidden God? What did Luther understand about those mysteries? Did Luther attribute things to God’s hidden will, that perhaps are things Scripture explicitly talks about? These are questions I ponder.

God Bless,

James Swan
http://www.ntrmin.org/rccorner-reformation.htm
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟28,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Qoheleth said:
Lastly, the "academic fallacy" comment was not directed personally at you. It was yet another general observation.

Since I made the origonal post I took it as being directed to me. It's no big deal. I seem to run be running into this a lot lately though - since I have no academic credentials. I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch - I have no degree in theology - but I can certainly read the works of Luther and see that they are quite easy to understand and make a logical conclusion for myself. It has been my experience that good education does not necessarily follow through to logic or common sense anyway - so I shouldn't have been offended for that reason alone.
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟28,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Tertiumquid said:
At this point, I can only suggest the interested reader go back and re-read the section I quoted from Paul Althaus’ The Theology Of Martin Luther. My understanding of Luther is not that he was a 5-point Calvinist, but that he understood the same thing Calvinists understand in regard to man’s salvation: God is sovereign- God has a hidden will, and that is not to be probed. I strongly admire Luther’s paradox of the hidden/revealed God. I think that many Calvinists can learn from it. There are many similarities for both theologies. The question I think that should be discussed is did John Calvin probe the hidden will of God? Does Calvinism go too far? Who is being true to the revealed will of God in the Scriptures? In regard to Luther, such questions worthy of discussion are: What mysteries did Luther attribute to the hidden God? What did Luther understand about those mysteries? Did Luther attribute things to God’s hidden will, that perhaps are things Scripture explicitly talks about? These are questions I ponder.

James - what great posts! I think the questions you ponder over are easily answered from the writings of the individuals. We just have to accept that they may not agree with our own understanding of these things. I think the first step is getting any preconceived notions we may have about these folks out of our heads before we start reading. We have to be willing to accept that their understanding of scripture may disagree with what someone else says about them or what we ourselves want them to believe. I am certainly willing to do that - but so far I see nothing from Luther (with the exception of some ceremonial/traditional issues) that he taught that disagrees with classic Reformed Theology as we see in Calvinism today.

Dave

Dave
 
Upvote 0

Tertiumquid

Regular Member
Jul 26, 2003
342
41
Visit site
✟997.00
Faith
Protestant
Behe's Boy said:
James - what great posts! I think the questions you ponder over are easily answered from the writings of the individuals. We just have to accept that they may not agree with our own understanding of these things. I think the first step is getting any preconceived notions we may have about these folks out of our heads before we start reading. We have to be willing to accept that their understanding of scripture may disagree with what someone else says about them or what we ourselves want them to believe. I am certainly willing to do that - but so far I see nothing from Luther (with the exception of some ceremonial/traditional issues) that he taught that disagrees with classic Reformed Theology as we see in Calvinism today.
Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your kind words. Indeed, the answers to the questions I raised are answered from the primary sources- however- I don't know how easy they are to find and extract. I myself have attempted to answer the questions I raised in my own studies, as my primary interests are Luther and Calvin. I've spent a lot of time with those questions- I raise them for the benefit of others who may want to dig a little deeper into Calvin and Luther.

In regard to your "see[ing] nothing from Luther (with the exception of some ceremonial/traditional issues) that he taught that disagrees with classic Reformed Theology as we see in Calvinism today..." I would suggest caution. Luther reveled in paradox, to the extent that I sometimes wonder if he didn't go too far with his hidden/revealed God paradigm.

Let me explain. I once got into a "posting match" with a Lutheran on limited atonement. Now, this wasn't one of the many nice Lutherans that i've learned from and dialoged with over the years. He did though raise some excellent quotes from Luther that strongly suggested Luther did not advocate a specific atonement made on belhalf of Christ for his people and his people only. The quotes he utilized were as follows:

"In His passion Christ actually assumed or took upon himself the sins of all men." (W-Weimar edition- 5, 598)


" Yes, he [Christ] assumes not only my sins but also those of the whole world, from Adam down to the very last mortal."

"But if you really want to find a place where the sins of the world are exterminated and deleted, then cast your gaze upon the cross."
"He [God] ordained the Lamb to bear the sins of the entire world." (W, 46, 677)


"But since He [Jesus] took it upon himself to be the substitute of all men He must also expect their punishment." (W 28, 348,f)


"Isaiah says (52:6): The Father laid on His shoulders the sins of all men, no one in the world excepted....Thou [Jesus] art the sole sinner on earth; thou must pay for every sin that has been committed." (W 45, 61)


"Myself [Christ]; I have become the whole world, have assumed the person of all human beings from Adam on. I [Luther] will believe that my dear Lord, the Lamb of God, has taken all my sins upon himself. Yet the world will not believe and accept this." (W 46, 683)


"Christ is the person who carries on His body, and has burdened Himself with all the sins of all the people of all the world, with the sins of all who have ever lived, live now, and are yet to live...in order to atone for them with his own blood." (W6, No. 6607)


"He took on the person of a sinner and a murderer, and not of one only, but of all sinners and murderers." "He is the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world." "Christ has and carries all the sins of all men in his body," (W 40, I, 433f)

"But during the time of his [Christ's] suffering He took upon Himself all our sins as if they had actually been his own and also suffered for them what we should have suffered for sins and what the damned are even now suffering." (W 5, 603)

Now, the quotes are from the Weimar edition, not the English edition, so contexts of course are suspect (since I can't look them up). The reason this guy was able to provide so many quotes was because Luther was describing the revealed God: the loving God presented in Scripture who died for "all", as in, "every specific individual". This though was not an attribute of the hidden God, who Luther knew chose those who were his sheep, and left the rest to be damned in their sins.

Early in his career, Luther commented about arguments against predestination:

"The second argument is that “God desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4), and He gave His Son for us men and created man for eternal life. Likewise: All things exist for man, and he himself exists for God that he may enjoy Him, etc. These points and others like them can be refuted as easily as the first one. For these verses must always be understood as pertaining to the elect only, as the apostle says in 2 Tim. 2:10 “everything for the sake of the elect.” For in an absolute sense Christ did not die for all, because He says: “This is My blood which is poured out for you” and “for many”—He does not say: for all—“for the forgiveness of sins” (Mark 14:24, Matt. 26:28)" (LW 25:375).


Now I would argue that Luther is still utilizing the paradox of hidden/revealed God here. Luther says earlier in the same treatise:

"But do we not preach the world over that God’s power, wisdom, goodness, righteousness, and mercy are great and marvelous without understanding them? For we understand things metaphysically, that is, according to the way we understand them, namely, as things that are apparent and not hidden, although He has hidden His power under nothing but weakness, His wisdom under foolishness, His goodness under severity, His righteousness under sins, and His mercy under wrath. "(LW 25:370)


Some Lutherans have tried to suggest that Luther's above comments on 1 Tim. 2:4 reflect Luther's earlier position, and that he later changed his mind. I haven't though ever found any comment from Luther saying his earler position was wrong on 1 Tim. 2:4. I think his comment is best understood as referring to the hidden God (Luther says in "an absolute sense"...).

We in the Reformed camp of course say that the verses that seem to suggest unlimited atonment on a closer look, do no such thing (like 1 Tim 2). They harmonize with God's intention to lay down his life for his sheep. Luther though, because of his paradox of the hidden/revealed God, had no problem affirming limited and unlimited atonment! It didn't bother him that it seemed unreasonable, because God's revelation is not a matter of logical conclusions. We say "if x and p, therefore=Y". Luther would say, "if x and p, nevertheless x and p." It's ok if it seems contradictory- God's truth is unfathomable and appears contradictory often (like, say Jesus being both fully divine and fully human).

The moral of the story: don't be surprised if a Lutheran balks loudly against a Calvinist who says Luther affirmed a 5 petal tulip. I understand why they do so, and they are right that Luther approached theology differently than later Reformed theologians who systematized. I don't think that Calvin reveled in paradox the same way Luther did. I don't think Calvin expressed the paradox of hidden/revealed God the same way Luther did.

On the other hand, I think some Lutherans that suggest Calvin and Luther had no similarities on election/predestination are over-reacting. I vowed long ago never to enter into discussion with Lutherans again on this subject, I would though be willing to do so if everyone (Calvinists included) could keep their guns in their holsters and discuss before shooting each other. Here's what happened to me last time I got into this discussion a few years ago:


"The Tertium Qid "said" he wanted to discuss Luther, but when confronted with Luther quotes that exposed his slander of Luther, he asked for references to the American Edition of Luther's Works...Now he has fled away into the darkness of cyberspace leaving us nothing but his latin moniker of anonymity. Having deleted all the evidence of slander with no apology or acknowledgment of error---he awaits a more opportune time. I shudder to think of what his teeth would have done to our little flock had not Gnesio-Lutheran and my wife Kathrine held their ground against his attacks on Lutheranism during my absence....Ironically, during my absence, I killed a coyote that was preying upon our deer herd's younger fawns. Gee, if I had stayed home-- I would have had a shot at a wolf who was trying to kill some of you! Nevertheless, I pray that TQ will realize that he was wrong and repent of his belief in 'limited atonement'. All of us, without exception, were all wolves at one time, we were born that way. But by the grace of God, we are what we are now: reborn children of God and sheep of our Good Shepherd. So, TQ, if you are still listening, among Lutherans there is such a thing as forgiveness and even wolves can become sheep."

yikes.
James Swan
http://www.ntrmin.org/rccorner-reformation.htm
 
Upvote 0

Tertiumquid

Regular Member
Jul 26, 2003
342
41
Visit site
✟997.00
Faith
Protestant
On the topic of Luther and Calvin, this excerpt is from the book, Portrait of Calvin by T. H. L. Parker (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1954). I find it quite interesting:



The original split from the Roman Church was, in face of its refusal to reform, inevitable. The divisions within the Protestant ranks, however, were a different matter. In a sense, the antagonism between Lutheran and Zwinglian was only the recognition of a fact latent from the beginning, for two strands had been present in the Reformation all along. Zwingli always insisted that he had reached his understanding of the gospel independently of Luther and at about the same time. However that may be, his outlook was very different and, as leader of the early Swiss Reformation, he impressed his outlook upon his followers. He had been profoundly influenced by the humanists and owed less to the schoolmen than did Luther; and this clean break with the immediate past gave him a far more radical attitude than Luther could stomach. Relations between them were soon strained, but they met at Marburg in 1529 in an attempt to come to terms. They agreed on everything – except the Eucharist; and here both were immovable. In the end, despite their substantial agreement, the conference only served to magnify the differences and bring them into the foreground.


It is a great pity that Calvin and Luther never met, or that Calvin had not been born a few years earlier, before Luther had hardened his attitude. They were far closer to one another both theologically and in spirit than Luther and Zwingli had been. But their only real contact was through common friends. Calvin is delighted when he hears that Bucer has had a letter from Luther saying: 'Salute John Sturm and John Calvin, whose books I have read with particular pleasure', and Melanchthon tells him: 'Luther and Pomeranus have desired Calvin to be greeted; Calvin has acquired great favour in their eyes.' When some loving souls sought to stir up trouble between them by pointing out a passage in Calvin's book on the Lord's Supper where he criticizes Luther, the German Reformer said with unaccustomed gentleness: 'I hope that Calvin will one day think better of us; but in any case, it is well that even now he should have a proof of our good feeling towards him.' 'If we are not moved by such moderation, we are certainly made of stone,' says Calvin to Farel. 'For myself, I am profoundly moved by it.'



But the acquaintance made no progress into friendship; they passed only within hailing distance of each other. Four years later Calvin was still no further forward than asking Melanchthon to 'salute Doctor Martin respectfully in my name'. Luther's last years were clouded by trouble and overwork, his temper dangerous and uncertain. More and more he became inflamed against the Zurich theologians, the successors of Zwingli, who retaliated in like. Farel begged Calvin to use his moderating influence to calm down the men of Zurich. He replied that the real trouble now was Luther, whom Bullinger had borne with meekly and patiently for long. But nevertheless, he wrote to Bullinger soon after, enjoining moderation: 'I hear that Luther has at last broken out in fierce invective, not so much against you as against the whole of us.... But I do most seriously want to ask you to consider how eminent a man Luther is, and the excellent endowments he is gifted with, his strength of mind and resolute constancy, with what great skill and efficiency and power of doctrinal statement he has hitherto devoted his whole energy to overthrowing the reign of anti-Christ, and at the same time to diffusing far and near the doctrine of salvation. I have often been accustomed to declare that even though he were to call me a devil, I should none the less still hold him in such honour that I must acknowledge him to be an illustrious servant of God. But, while he is endued with rare and excellent virtues, he labours at the same time under serious faults. Would that he had rather studied to curb this restless, uneasy temperament which is so apt to boil over in every direction.... Besides, you will do yourselves no good by quarrelling, but will only afford some sport to the wicked, so that they may triumph, not so much over us as over the gospel.... Even should he have provoked us, we ought to decline the contest rather than increase the harm by the general shipwreck of the Church.'



Even more important, he wrote to Luther himself a most reverent letter, calling him 'my much respected father', and sending two or three of his smaller books. Melanchthon, to whom he entrusted the letter, refused to pass it on; Luther, he said, was too suspicious of the Swiss Reformers. But there was certainly nothing in it to arouse even Luther's wrath: on the contrary, it was conciliatory in the extreme: 'Would that I might fly to you,' it concluded, 'that I might even for a few hours enjoy the happiness of your company. For I would prefer, and it would be far better, not only upon this question, but also upon others, to talk to you personally. But seeing that is not granted to us on earth, I hope that it will shortly come to pass in the kingdom of God. Adieu, most renowned sir, most distinguished minister of Christ and my ever honoured father.'



But his chief contacts with the Lutheran Church were through Melanchthon and Bucer, both his close friends. Melanchthon was, in nearly all respects, a man after Calvin's own heart. A mighty scholar-professor of Greek at Wittenberg at the age of twenty-one – a humanist of wide sympathies and a Reformer who had the care of all the Churches at heart. His trouble was that, unlike Calvin, he never overcame his reserve and timidity. There was more than one complaint that he, who could write and talk so well of the Cross, had not learned to live under the Cross. And this was to be a hindrance, not only in leading to overmuch accommodation (for accommodation never yet brought about lasting union), but also in helping to prevent the important conference of all the Reformed Churches. But the friendship between him and Calvin served to bring about at least a closer understanding between the two Churches. They were to fall in the end before the obstinacy of the second generation of Lutheran theologians who, entrenching themselves firmly in Luther's theology, called Melanchthon a crypto-Calvinist and refused concessions, far less unity. After the Peace of Augsburg, when the Lutheran Church was granted the same rights as the Roman Church in Germany there was even less chance of agreement. In the future there was to be a shrewish bitterness between Lutheran and Reformed that, in earlier days, had been reserved for the common enemy, Rome.

In Switzerland, also, unity had to be fought for. There the situation was more confused than in Germany. The politically independent towns and cantons were free to choose their own religion. Part of the country clave still to the Roman Church, and even among the Reformed cities there was wide diversity; Zurich was dominated by Zwingli and afterwards by his disciple Bullinger, Berne tended to Lutheranism, and Basel, under the influence of Martin Bucer, tried to tread the slippery via media between Luther and Zwingli. What was worse, the diversities of doctrine, worship and organization were exacerbated by centuries-old feuds and jealousies between towns and families.

From the outset Calvin aimed at bringing the Swiss Churches to unity. As early as 1538 he was writing to Bullinger: 'Oh, if only a pure and sincere agreement could be reached among us at last! What then would prevent the assembling of a public synod, where individuals might propose whatever they may think to be best for the Churches? A way might be found out of going to work by common deliberation, and, if need be, that the cities and princes also should assist in this undertaking by mutual exhortation and counsel, and also confirm what is done by their authority. But in so great perplexity, the Lord is rather to be inquired of, that He Himself may open up the way.'

Little progress was made, and the Churches remained like so many stooks of corn in a harvest field before they are gathered into one rick, similar but separate. However, the leaders continued in friendliness, despite some provocation from Zurich against Bucer, generally distrusted as a mediator. Now, as later in regard to Luther, Calvin wrote to Bullinger and pleaded for moderation and a friendly spirit. When Bucer is at fault, he says, tell him so, and he will take it in the right way. But do it, not as if you were enemies, but with the love that there ought to be between fellow-ministers of Christ. And again he returns to the hope of unity: 'What, dear Bullinger, ought we rather to correspond about at this time than the preserving and confirming, by every means in our power, brotherly kindness among ourselves? We see, indeed, of how much importance it is, not only on our own account, but for the sake of the whole body of professing Christians everywhere, that all those on whom the Lord has laid any personal charge in the ordering of His Church should agree together in a sincere and cordial understanding.... Since, therefore, it is our duty carefully to cultivate friendly fellowship with all the ministers of Christ, so we must needs also endeavour by all the means we can to see that the Churches to which we faithfully minister the Word of the Lord may agree among themselves.'



Just as between Zwingli and Luther, so also between Zwingli's successors and Calvin and Bucer, it was the doctrine of the Lord's Supper that was the main point of disagreement. Bullinger was highly suspicious of Calvin as being more than half a Lutheran, and apparently nothing Calvin could say or do would make him change his mind – 'a preconceived opinion of me leads you to imagine and attribute to me what never occurred to my mind'. Besides, he was a friend of Bucer's, and that in itself was sufficient to damn him. The squalid bickerings went on and on alongside the whole-hearted agreements, marring what Calvin called 'the springtime of a reviving Church'. It was not until 1549 that his patience had its reward with the union of all the Swiss Reformed Churches when they subscribed to the Consensus of Zurich which he and Bullinger had drawn up. This was a solid achievement to offset the disagreement with the Lutherans: henceforth there was one Reformed Church in Switzerland.
 
Upvote 0

Tertiumquid

Regular Member
Jul 26, 2003
342
41
Visit site
✟997.00
Faith
Protestant
Before there was the systematic 3-volume set What Luther Says, there was a much smaller work called A Compend Of Luther's Theolgy by Hugh Kerr (in fact if you read the introduction to What Luther Says, Plass commends the work). Kerr did a fine job presenting Luther's words in a systematic way. The book is still available via used book stores, and is usually under $20. See:


http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?imagefield.x=36&an=Kerr&tn=Luther&imagefield.y=12

Anyway, Dr. Kerr's introduction presented these comments on Luther and Calvin:

Something has already been said of the contrast that is often made between Luther and Calvin, and certainly the two Reformers as well as the great Churches that sprang from them are very different in temper and character. Philip Schaff, in his Creeds of Christendom, lists nine distinctions between the two. He notes that Lutheranism arose out of monarchical Germany, while the Reformed Church grew simultaneously in republican Switzerland and spread thence to France, Holland, England, and Scotland. He notes that Luther was always the dominating personality in Lutheranism, whereas the Reformed Church points with pride to a number of initiators, Calvin, Farel, Beza, Bullinger, Cranmer, Knox, et cetera. Other differences are noted, some of a doctrinal kind, but surely Schaff is right in emphasizing the close affinity between these two men and the Churches that owe their existence to them. The controversy over the Lord's Supper has often been regarded as a radical breach between the two and although Luther's attitude toward Zwingli would seem to confirm this, nevertheless in a comparison of the writings of Luther and Calvin on the great doctrinal questions what strikes one with greater force than their disagreements is the amazing similarity of the two, even to the point of detail in many instances. For example, so far as the authors themselves are concerned, there would seem to be little reason for distinguishing between them by saying that the regnant principle of Luther's theology was justification by faith, while for Calvin it was the sovereignty of God. If there is any truth in such a distinction, it is largely a matter of emphasis and ought not to leave the impression that Luther did not speak of the sovereignty of God or that Calvin did not treat of justification by faith. Calvin has come in for more misrepresentation here than has Luther. The popular, and often misguided, conception of Calvinism, involving total depravity, election, predestination, et cetera, does not comprehend the center and core of Calvin's faith. For him, as for Luther, justification by faith is the heart of the Christian faith, and that is why the subject forms the center of the Institutes around which all the other doctrines are grouped. If the sovereignty of God is emphasized, as it obviously is, it is only because the sovereign God is also the God who justifies. In other particulars the harmony between the two Reformers is so close that it would be difficult to detect differences of any kind. They were at one in their scorn of the Roman Church; they were at one in their refusal to be led into subtleties and verbal casuistry; they were at one in their stand upon Scripture as the Word of God and the final authority for faith; they were at one in emphasizing the evangelical doctrines of the Gospel; and they even exhibit the same sense of humor on occasions, as when they both quote the answer of the man who was asked what God was doing before the creation of the world. " He was," we are told, " making hell for over-curious people! "


The one sharp difference which at the present time distinguishes Luther and Calvin more than any other doctrine is their differing conception of the relation of the Christian individual and the Christian Church on the one hand to the civil Government or the State on the other hand. The difference has been expressed in many ways. Schaff says:

" Luther and Melanchthon were chiefly bent upon the purification of doctrine, and established State churches controlled by princes, theologians, and pastors. Calvin and Knox carried the reform into the sphere of government, discipline, and worship, and labored to found a pure and free church of believers. Lutheran congregations in the old world are almost passive, and most of them enjoy not even the right of electing their pastors; while well-organized Reformed congregations have elders and deacons chosen from the people, and a much larger amount of lay agency, especially in the Sunday-School work. Luther first proclaimed the principle of the general priesthood, but in practice it was confined to the civil rulers, and carried out in a wrong way by making them the supreme bishops of the Church, and reducing the Church to a degrading dependence on the State. Luther and his followers carefully ab-tained from politics, and intrusted the secular princes friendly to the Reformation with the episcopal rights; Calvin and Knox upheld the sole headship of Christ, and endeavored to renovate the civil state on a theocratic basis. This led to serious conflicts and wars, but they resulted in a great advance of civil and religious liberty in Holland, England, and the United States. The essence of Calvinism is the sense of the absolute sovereignty of God and the absolute dependence of man; and this is the best school of moral self-government, which is true freedom. Those who feel most their dependence on God are most independent of men."




Others have gone farther than Schaff and suggested that the Lutheran passivity toward the State has, in effect, made possible the rise of present-day German political tyranny, and they note with point that dictatorship has never arisen on Reformed or Calvinistic soil. Karl Barth, in his letter to the French Protestants in December, 1939, suggests that the difficulty of understanding the apparent duplicity of modern Church life in Germany must be accounted for on the basis of " Martin Luther's error on the relation between the temporal and the spiritual order and power." This, therefore, is a point where there is radical and very important difference between Luther and Calvin, and that is why the long section on The Christian and the State is included as a separate section in the Compend. It will be observed that while Luther does on occasion make room for the right of rebellion, the total impression one derives from his discussion is that Christians are subject to the civil government whether it be right or wrong, just or tyrannical, since
it is God's instrument for justice and judgment.



This is far too technical and delicate a subject to be expanded farther here, and it is all too easy to make unwarranted generalizations about the Lutheran or Reformed views of the State. If it is true, for example, that there is some connection between Luther and present-day Germany, one must not, on the other hand, overlook the courageous and at times defiant attitude of many German Lutheran Churchmen toward Nazi interference with the rights of the Church. It has been justly said that the only concerted rebuke against Nazism has come from the Lutheran Church. The stand of Pastor Niemoller in Germany and of Bishop Berggrav in Norway gives the lie to those who would roundly accuse the Lutheran Church of indifferentism in matters political. In any case, we see
here one of the points where the Reformation intersects the problems of our own day and age. That is why a compend of Luther's theology is no mere academic treatise but a tract for the times, and it is with the conviction of Luther's importance not only for his own age but for ours, that this Compend is presented.




Source: Hugh Kerr (ed.), A Compend Of Luther's Theology (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1966), xii-xv.
 
Upvote 0

Tetzel

Veteran
Nov 19, 2004
1,387
84
✟18,075.00
Faith
Lutheran
Theologica Germanica can be purchased on the cheap from Dover Publishing, just thought I'd share.

Qoheleth said:




I suggest you read

Theologia Germanica

This work was discovered and published in 1516 by Martin Luther, who said of it that;

“Next to the Bible and St. Augustine, no book has ever come into my hands from which I have learnt more of God and Christ, and man and all things that are.”

then read

"Union with Christ"---Braaten, Jenson

and then

On Christian Liberty--Martin Luther



and after these, ask yourself if Luther is a Calvinist. I prefer not to debate this, Ive been down this road and wanted only to share a few resources.

In any case

What you hear from Luther that sounds Calvinistic are echoes of St Augustine. Both men were influenced heavily by him (as were nearly all theologians in the west). The difference is that Calvin is more consistently Augustinian than Luther. In other words, Luther clearly rejects some of Augustine’s thought, while Calvin runs Augustine to his logical conclusions (sometimes in ways that Augustine, himself, would likely disapprove).To read Calvin’s double predestinationism back into Luther is an academic fallacy. The better way is to read Luther on his own terms—not trying to squeeze him into Calvin’s mindset.

The passages where it seems as if Luther is speaking of double predestination are actually him speaking clearly in terms of Law and Gospel; or, better, the wrath of God and the mercy of God. Furthermore, in the Bondage of the Will, Luther’s chief argument (against Erasmus) is to show that, in spiritual matters, the will is bound to reject the Lord’s mercy; and that as that rejection hardens, God gives a man over to his base desires. This, however, is not God predetermining the man to hell.


Q
 
Upvote 0

Tertiumquid

Regular Member
Jul 26, 2003
342
41
Visit site
✟997.00
Faith
Protestant
Tetzel said:
Theologica Germanica can be purchased on the cheap from Dover Publishing, just thought I'd share.

Hi again,

I'm not looking for a debate- but i'd really like your insight as to why this translation by Luther is relevant to this discussion.

Thanks,
James Swan
 
Upvote 0