Martin Luther would have had most of us put to death

[rockytopva]

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies"

 

[Amittai]

This is why I'm against theocracy and monolithism.

 

[rockytopva]

This is why I'm against theocracy and monolithism.

Good post! Thank you!

 

[dzheremi]

Joke's on him -- I woke up today! (And glory be to God for that!)

I agree with him on infant baptism, though. I'm for it. I'm definitely against others being put to death, though. My list of heretics is different than his, so y'know, just like I wouldn't want to get killed by some Protestant or other type of Christian playing God, I don't think it's a good idea that I should get to, either. Besides, God can handle that when He decides to. Just look up the gruesome details of the death of the heretic Arius if you doubt that (but please do so when you are not eating; it's rather gross).

 

[BBAS 64]

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies"

Good Day, Rockytopva

Thankfully God had other plans... I am sure Martin Luther understood that everything he did or did not do was under the control of a Sovereign God in Heaven. Thank God for Martin the servant of the living God.

"We are Beggars that is true".

In Him,

Bill

 

[rockytopva]

Good Day, Rockytopva

Thankfully God had other plans... I am sure Martin Luther understood that everything he did or did not do was under the control of a Sovereign God in Heaven. Thank God for Martin the servant of the living God.

"We are Beggars that is true".

In Him,

Bill

I would trace my spiritual lineage...

1. Lutheran - I believe the Protestant Reformation was a good thing
2. Baptist - I enjoyed quality youth conferences growing up
3. Freewill Baptist - The footwashing service, I hated the thoughts of going, but was glad I did!
4. Methodist - Good people
5. Methodist-Holiness - Good revival
6. Pentecostal Holiness - Our old pastor had many good revivals and the people were good
7. Charismatic - The Word of Faith people I met were all encouraging

The problem...

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. - Revelation 3:11-12

The problem is that the churches I would attend are in and out of revival. And once the revival ceases they become incredibly arrogant and some of the churches are on the verge of ceasing to exist. Which for me is very annoying.

 

[GodsGrace101]

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies"

Reformed ideas have changed much since the beginning.

But I ask.....The CC made mistakes....
and didn't Luther?
Man brings his sinful nature wherever he goes.

THE ANIMAL FARM
John Steinbeck
(those in power will always be authoritarian)

 

[rockytopva]

Reformed ideas have changed much since the beginning.

But I ask.....The CC made mistakes....
and didn't Luther?
Man brings his sinful nature wherever he goes.

THE ANIMAL FARM
John Steinbeck
(those in power will always be authoritarian)

Yes! I agree! Good post and thanks for sharing.

 

[rockytopva]

In researching this topic I found the following Jewish perspective...

"At the beginning of his career, Martin Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. However, he expected the Jews to convert to his purified Christianity; when they did not, he turned violently against them." - Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies"

"However, he expected the Jews to convert to his purified Christianity" I believe Luther expected all to convert to his so-called purified Christianity. When they didn't he would take issue.

 

[rockytopva]

Reformed ideas have changed much since the beginning.

But I ask.....The CC made mistakes....
and didn't Luther?
Man brings his sinful nature wherever he goes.

THE ANIMAL FARM
John Steinbeck
(those in power will always be authoritarian)

My Pentecostal Holiness pastor, pictured below was a great guy. He would have many revivals in a year and we all would attend and leave spiritually refreshed. He once told me that when he first entered the ministry he thought Pentecostal Holiness was the only group truly saved. He said it was like a decade before the Lord showed him the Pentecostal Holiness church was not the only church!

 

[Chris V++]

How old was Luther when he made the anti-Semitic comments? I've heard it said he may have been senile at the time. I also heard he expected an ally of the Jews and even the Orthodox and was put off by non- cooperation.

 

[paul1149]

Luther, Calvin, Augustine, Aquinas, and more - all countenanced persecution. In his brilliant History of Christianity, Paul Johnson, who is Catholic, asserts that the bishop's oath in the Catholic church to this day includes the vow to persecute heretics. In my view, to legitimize persecution diminishes the authority of any person or church holding that position. Jesus told us to beware the leaven of Herod.

I do think Christians have a legitimate role to play in government and the public square, but I appreciate our system of minority rights, open debate, and voting, which while far from perfect, is generally peaceful and as non-coercive as is feasible. I give the principles the US was founded on far more credence than the positions of these church luminaries in this regard, and indeed thank God often for the freedom they afford.

 

[paul1149]

How old was Luther when he made the anti-Semitic comments? I've heard it said he may have been senile at the time. I also heard he expected an ally of the Jews and even the Orthodox and was put off by non- cooperation.

The comment about the Jews was 1543; about the anabaptists, 1536. So he was well along by that point, and I understand he was experiencing increasing problems at the time, including being hassled by demons.

 

[rockytopva]

How old was Luther when he made the anti-Semitic comments? I've heard it said he may have been senile at the time. I also heard he expected an ally of the Jews and even the Orthodox and was put off by non- cooperation.

The Jews and Their Lies is a 65,000-word treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. I believe Luther would have been 60 years old. It took some sense to write such a large book, but he was up in years.

 

[rockytopva]

The comment about the Jews was 1543; about the anabaptists, 1536. So he was well along by that point, and I understand he was experiencing increasing problems at the time, including being hassled by demons.

Yes! I agree! Good post and thanks for sharing.

 

[JohnAshton]

The older I become the more individualistic my faith has become in God and the Son.

Denominations are for men and not of God, imo.

 

[Amittai]

The older I become the more individualistic my faith has become in God and the Son.

Denominations are for men and not of God, imo.

I'm against churches that don't appreciate our individual slant.

I don't know how they handle orthodoxy among their own officials, but as an ordinary attender I expect my views to be taken in a relaxed fashion & freely weighed up in anyone's own time. They can ask me to do things for them, based on my character displayed over a period, as well as my exotic (quixotic) proclamations.

I try to model freedom in illumination (as harmoniously to the basic message), because I think we don't explain the faith to another enough - there is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing. They should test out what I say and say something back that I can test. I don't have to pretend to have an official position. I believe I don't say anything against faith and no-one has dared tell me so. I never pretend people have to agree with me straight off, if at all. Faith is something to mull over in our own time and to put in our own words.

Rockytopva, my heritage is almost as varied as yours but more shall we say eclectic.

 

[rockytopva]

I'm against churches that don't appreciate our individual slant.

I don't know how they handle orthodoxy among their own officials, but as an ordinary attender I expect my views to be taken in a relaxed fashion & freely weighed up in anyone's own time. They can ask me to do things for them, based on my character displayed over a period, as well as my exotic (quixotic) proclamations.

I try to model freedom in illumination (as harmoniously to the basic message), because I think we don't explain the faith to another enough - there is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing. They should test out what I say and say something back that I can test. I don't have to pretend to have an official position. I believe I don't say anything against faith and no-one has dared tell me so. I never pretend people have to agree with me straight off, if at all. Faith is something to mull over in our own time and to put in our own words.

Rockytopva, my heritage is almost as varied as yours but more shall we say eclectic.

I find churches change with generations. When I grew up there was plenty of Christian conference to attend. I find the ministers more educated than ever, with little ability to put together quality Christian conference.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The devil seems to reach out and influence all people, Christian and otherwise. Luther was no exception; neither were other Protestant leaders; Calvinists drove my ancestors out of Alsace, John Knox reformed with the sword, So did Henry VIII and Elizabeth I, the not so distant strife in Ireland; protestant orangemen. The Catholic Feenian Raids into Canada, not to mention a whole bunch of genocides through recent history; and let's not forget the Crusades; all racially or religiously based. Luther's statements are little more than a foot-note to the on-going bleak history of Christianity.

 

[rockytopva]

In August 2001, the Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) elected Mark S. Hanson to serve as presiding bishop, who served twelve years in that position. Bishop Hanson has extended apologies to groups such as the Mennonites and Ana-Baptist. I have got to take my hat off to the guy, if I were to ever meet him I would tell him reconciliation with other faith groups was an incredibly good and decent thing to do.

Reception of Mennonite-Lutheran Dialogues - Anabaptistwiki