Martin Luther started a new church

[Zecryphon]

I won't I just found it funny that Luther seeing blatant biblical error in RCC tried to make changes and was kicked out, so he began a new church, one that was going to follow scripture as a basis for truth, If scripture is the basis for truth then why would you be against the scriptural positions of church based on biblical text. or is it possible you may be making the same mistake the RCC made by not following what was written, and rather followed man made traditions

What Scriptural positions of the church are we supposedly against? His answer ought to be really funny.

 

[LilLamb219]

I won't I just found it funny that Luther seeing blatant biblical error in RCC tried to make changes and was kicked out, so he began a new church, one that was going to follow scripture as a basis for truth, If scripture is the basis for truth then why would you be against the scriptural positions of church based on biblical text. or is it possible you may be making the same mistake the RCC made by not following what was written, and rather followed man made traditions

Luther did not make a mistake. It is those who strayed away from biblical things like Baptism and the Lord's Supper who have made a mistake and changed what the true meaning was, turning it from a work of God to a work of man.

 

[DaRev]

I won't I just found it funny that Luther seeing blatant biblical error in RCC tried to make changes and was kicked out, so he began a new church,

He didn't begin a new church. The papacy refused to return to the true orthodox catholicity of the Church of the Apostles. Luther simply brought the Church back to its Biblical roots.

one that was going to follow scripture as a basis for truth, If scripture is the basis for truth then why would you be against the scriptural positions of church based on biblical text.

We most certainly do follow the Scriptural teachings: baptism as a regeneration and rebirth, the real presence of the body and blood of the Lord in the Lord's Supper, justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of the works and merits of Christ alone, sanctification by the work of the Holy Spirit in us as a response to our justification by God... The list goes on.

or is it possible you may be making the same mistake the RCC made by not following what was written, and rather followed man made traditions

You mean man-made teachings from the likes of Calvin, Zwingli, Wesley and others, such as works righteousness, symbolic views of the sacraments, making a decision for Christ, salvation by faith and works (the heresy of Pelagianism), premillenial dispensationalism, and a whole host of human innovations that are not based at all on Scripture, none of which are taught in Lutheran churches?

 

[goldbeach]

I won't I just found it funny that Luther seeing blatant biblical error in RCC tried to make changes and was kicked out, so he began a new church, one that was going to follow scripture as a basis for truth, If scripture is the basis for truth then why would you be against the scriptural positions of church based on biblical text. or is it possible you may be making the same mistake the RCC made by not following what was written, and rather followed man made traditions

I'm confused to what man made traditions we have invented? Not Maryology, indulgences, good works, incarnational church, praying to saints, worshiping icons and relics, purgatory, extreme unction, praying for someone after they die, penance, (priests,nun,friars,etc.), transubstantiation, infallible pope, etc. Just which man made tradiditon are you talking about? We already went over baptism and if that isn't understood then it would be useless to go over the other factors.



.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

I won't I just found it funny that Luther seeing blatant biblical error in RCC tried to make changes and was kicked out, so he began a new church, one that was going to follow scripture as a basis for truth, If scripture is the basis for truth then why would you be against the scriptural positions of church based on biblical text. or is it possible you may be making the same mistake the RCC made by not following what was written, and rather followed man made traditions

Luther is not opposed to those positions like you suggest. Rather, he rightly says that the biblical witness tells us there is not a necessary system/order of governance because governance does not make the church, Christ does. So long as he is the head.

Another thing to note is that there is nothing wrong with man-made traditions so long as they do not oppose the gospel or are counted as the gospel. This is what is referred to as adiaphora-things neither commanded nor forbidden. Many Lutherans for example stated they could accept the Papacy, but not on divine authority only human authority. The refusal of Rome to acknowledge this is what caused them to oppose it--because then adiaphora no longer becomes adiaphora once you mistake the man-made as the divine.

 

[Tangible]

Hehe. I was going to respond too, but I kinda got choked seeing that he has gotten so thoroughly smoked by all you fine folks above.

At some point the mercy rule applies.

 

[Zecryphon]

It only applies if he yells "Uncle", "I quit" or "You win." Since I don't see him doing that any time in the foseeable future, I say we keep proving him wrong. It isn't hard to do and has been quite fun so far. LOL

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Hehe. I was going to respond too, but I kinda got choked seeing that he has gotten so thoroughly smoked by all you fine folks above.

At some point the mercy rule applies.

I'm pretty sure mercy rule only applies by faith


...or is it that it only applies if you are up by ten smoking posts after the fifth page of the thread?

 

[QuiltAngel]

I think that TGIO left . . . again.

 

[Zecryphon]

TGIO posts a lot in GT. That thread he started over in the ND forum about us is gone. I guess the mods removed it or something. I couldn't find it. TGIO will be back I suspect. I just wonder what falsehoods about Lutheranism he'll bring with him then.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Yeah, they closed the thread for review and then it disappeared.

 

[Zecryphon]

That's a shame. He was representing us so accurately.... NOT! LOL

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well, I don't have catholic tag since I don't belog to a church. I would like to convert to either Catholic Church or the Oriental Orthodox Church but it takes some time.


did he accept the 7 ecumenical councils (OO accept only 3) that the Catholics accept?


so he didn't like listening to the Tradition, he only liked reading the the Bible?

Hi Hank,

While Lutherans retain the vast majority of the same traditions as the Roman Church; those which we do not, have been abandoned because they conflicted with, or are prohibited by Scripture.

Without using this standard, traditions were created or evolved at the whim of human opinion. When the Church holds such traditions the true and pure meaning of the Bible becomes twisted and distorted.

In holding Scripture, which is God's Holy Word as a standard for all doctrines and traditions, we have no reason to question the truth or usefulness of our teachings and practices; since all are already in keeping with God's will!

Mark

 

[goldbeach]

Hi Hank,

While Lutherans retain the vast majority of the same traditions as the Roman Church; those which we do not, have been abandoned because they conflicted with, or are prohibited by Scripture.

Without using this standard, traditions were created or evolved at the whim of human opinion. When the Church holds such traditions the true and pure meaning of the Bible becomes twisted and distorted.

In holding Scripture, which is God's Holy Word as a standard for all doctrines and traditions, we have no reason to question the truth or usefulness of our teachings and practices; since all are already in keeping with God's will!

Mark

Well said

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I take it that you are interested in the Lutheran faith that you keep coming over here. May your ears be opened.

I'm interested in what happened to the God appointed positions in the church, 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11,12......I'm not against traditions, everyone has them, it only becomes a problem when traditions are in contradiction to Gods word and His appointed positions for the church

 

[seajoy]

I'm interested in what happened to the God appointed positions in the church, 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11,12......I'm not against traditions, everyone has them, it only becomes a problem when traditions are in contradiction to Gods word and His appointed positions for the church

Are the mods not talking to you at all? I'm getting rather confused as to how you don't understand how the congregational forums work.

 

[Tangible]

Just for giggles (and I'll probably regret it), I looked up the verses you quoted to see what you were going on about.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Confessional Lutheran churches have all these positions, duties and activities. The vast majority are all contained within the Office of the Ministry.

Now, if you're gonna say that these all have to be separate people in separate offices with separate titles and separate parking spaces, then we will have to disagree. Hopefully you know that all these are duties (among others) of the Office of the Ministry, or duties that take place under the authority of that office, and not all separated out into different offices.

 

[seajoy]

Just for giggles (and I'll probably regret it), I looked up the verses you quoted to see what you were going on about.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Confessional Lutheran churches have all these positions, duties and activities. The vast majority are all contained within the Office of the Ministry.

Now, if you're gonna say that these all have to be separate people in separate offices with separate titles and separate parking spaces, then we will have to disagree. Hopefully you know that all these are duties (among others) of the Office of the Ministry, or duties that take place under the authority of that office, and not all separated out into different offices.

Thank you, Tange. All should be well now.

 

[QuiltAngel]

In the 1 Corinthians 12 verse you are citing, Paul is emphasizing the preaching and teaching of the Gospel first which leads to loving acts of service. They are united with the body and serving those who serve with the Gospel message.

In Ephesians 4 he is speaking about the office of the ministry and the men who serve in these offices are gifts to the church. There is one office but a diversity of callings within the office. All of these people are equipping the saints for the work of the Church. So that they may go and tell others about what Jesus has done as well as in service to the Church.

 

[Studeclunker]

I'm interested in what happened to the God appointed positions in the church, 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11,12......I'm not against traditions, everyone has them, it only becomes a problem when traditions are in contradiction to Gods word and His appointed positions for the church

This is a perfect example of the Scripture Fishing that has caused so much mischef in the Protestant Denominations. In fact, this type of using Scripture out of context is how groups like the Jehovah's Whitnesses became an extra-Christian sect.

For instance, the quotation on I Cor. 12:28, Paul is likening the Church to the various parts of a human body. The Pentecostals and Charasmatics maintain that if one doesn't speak in tongues they likely aren't saved. Yet Paul contradicts this in I Cor. 12:28 if it is used in context.

The same applys to the Ephesians 4:11 & 12 reference. Paul is once again likening the Church to a body. This condemns the Non-Denominational churches as in Ephesians 4:14 Paul says, "...that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to decieve..."

I can't count the non-denom churches who have been fleeced by a wolf in sheep's clothing dressed up as a pastor! Even Calvary Chapel, that bastion of Non-Denominational Churches, had this happen to them. Chuck Smith started out as the associate Pastor and had to take over when the senior Pastor skipped town with the till! I was involved with them when this happened, so I can say this first hand! Thus, I'll stick with a Church that's well grounded and has an organization that oversees and protects the sheep from the wolves.

The point I'm overlabouring to here is that the Non Denoms have thrown the baby out with the bath water, as it were, and are themselves behaving like spoiled children. They want to do things their way. They want to sing their songs. They want to worship their way. Everything has to be new and in the style of music they like. The message is about what they can do themselves. Even baptism, that act of obediance and cleansing, is about them accepting (their will again) Christ, not the Lord's unmerited sacrifice in their place. It's me, me, me, me, me, I, I, I, I! The focus again is on self and selfrighteousness not the vicarious gift of grace and salvation through the blood of Christ!

I thank our guest for providing such an excellent example of the error of the Protestants! It couldn't have been presented better.

As to the O.P. it has been answered better than I can do. The question displays prejudice to and ignorance of the history and facts surrounding the rather reluctant formation of the Lutheran Denomination. I would suggest our host to study the subject and he just might find the denomination he's looking for.