Mark of the Beast, the matrix, and your job!

daughterofthemosthigh7 said:

My main question is, why's the guy afraid to show his face??
Psalm118:6 kjv

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Good question! Please see this article for a full explanation.
http://endtimesurvivors.com/teachings/practical-survival-information/38-why-do-we-hide-our-faces

yeshuaslavejeff said:

The Scriptural examples may be best, and permitted.
If anyone has a shirt, extra, and sees someone in need, and does not give it to them.
If anyone has food, even barely enough, and sees someone with no food, hungry with no resources, and refuses to share.
If anyone has houses, and knows brethren who are homeless, and turns them away.
If anyone has a car, and sees brethren who needs a ride, and ignores them as if they were not there.
Like the religous leaders, teachers, lawyers, WHO WALKED BY ON THE OTHER SIDE of the path, INSTEAD of helping the man who had been beaten and left bleeding and unable to recover by himself.

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Thanks, Jeff. You're one of the few people I've seen to give such an objective answer to the question. Usually, it's one of the most difficult questions to answer because we all struggle with the love of money to some degree. The examples you've described would include just about any Christian in the world but neither do I think every person can be fairly judged by the same circumstances.

Jesus gave some pretty specific instructions on how we should deal with greed. He said we should stop working for money and instead start working for working for love; that God will take care of any who seek his kingdom first. He said that we should forsake all we have, share it with the poor, and go into all the world to preach the gospel. He lived communally, with his disciples and the early church lived communally together, sharing all things in common according to each person's need.

These teachings are the answer both to the Mark and to the worldly economic system in general. God may call some of us to help orphans there, help widows here, go and preach the gospel there, abound here, be abased there etc, but the bottom line in all these various ways that God may lead us must still be based on the foundation of Jesus' teachings; forsake all, share with our brothers, work for God's kingdom, preach the gospel.

The Great Tribulation will be one of the most difficult periods in history, but for those of us heeding the warnings and seriously challenging our own dependence on materialism will be in a much better place to be an effective witness. When the Mark comes in we won't be caught in a fit of panic. We won't just crawl off into the gutters to starve. We will be listening and acting according to God's will because we are not dependent on the system to determine what we can or can't afford to do.

LastSeven said:

We are living in the last days. We have been for the last 2000 years.

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Yup, and we're commanded to watch. Watch for what?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

They follow religion.

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We all do this to some degree. The question is, how do we break out of following religion, or guard against it? I see you've suggested the very simple answer of "follow Jesus", to which I whole heartedly agree, but even there the answer isn't so simple if we ask, "what does it mean to follow Jesus"?

When I look at Jesus' teachings I find that for the most part they focus heavily on smashing pride, viciously confronting greed, ignoring the desire for respectability, challenging emotional, familial, friendship-oriented relationships, dying to self, dying to the world, falling on the stone and being broken etc. On the surface they come across as some of the most unattractive teachings of any religion but also the most fulfilling and satisfying one we get over the initial shock of letting go.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

RE "crawl off.... to starve"
Many [Christians, true ekklesia] do starve TODAY/ for the last several centuries.
They are not allowed jobs, homes, or friends (anyone who befriends them and is CAUGHT is either executed or also made to lose everything and thus lose their home and friends and starve themselves. )

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You're right. There are a lot of Christians suffering around the world today, and there have been all throughout history, I suppose. My comments were dealing specifically with the Great Tribulation and the fairly common perspective that Christians who refuse the Mark basically condemn themselves to a miserable death. That could be true in some cases and it's something we really should be prepared for, but I don't think God wants us to just curl up and die, either. We're supposed to be a witness in that time and I think God will give us what we need to make that happen, even if we end up dying as part of that witness.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It is happening TODAY in american cities, all across the country.

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I wasn't aware of that. Could you give some examples?

Hi Bethany. Thanks for sharing your comments. What you described in your post sounds like a "preterist" point of view. They believe, to varying degrees, that either part or all of the Revelation has already been fulfilled. They will cite a volcanic eruption as the "mountain falling into the sea" as fulfillment of the first four trumpets of the Tribulation. They'll cite a particularly nasty and cruel dictator as the Anti-Christ. They'll cite some ritualistic observance or tradition of slave trade as the Mark of the Beast ( I once heard someone seriously suggest that the mark of identification which was used on slaves in the Roman era was the Mark of the Beast and a cruel dictator named Nero was the Anti Christ.

The problem with all these theories is that the Revelation is not a loose assortment of events which happens throughout time. The events in the Revelation all have specific themes and timelines which relate to one another within that time line. There is the Mark and the Anti Christ, two of the most popular themes. But there is all the two witnesses, the 144, 000, the stinging locust-like things, the army of 200 million which spreads across the earth, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and the destruction of Babylon (a "great city" which is famous for it's greed and which destruction makes way for the Anti Christ to take control of the world).

There is no point in history where all these events can said to have taken place in a way in which they relate to one another and within the time frames listed by the Revelation. The Revelation talks about a period of 3.5 years, 42, months, and 1260 days, all of which equate to the same length of time. It does this to avoid any confusion, as though to make it absolutely clear that this period of 3.5 years is important and it is fixed.

Bethany311 said:

The idea I heard put forth that the mark could be a symbol of war... such as a coat of arms or insignia. Therefore it would be possible that all who wage war alongside this antichrist-type leader and follow him have the mark on their hand - their right hand being the hand that holds the sword - and/ or their forehead - a place where an symbol may grace a helmet or head armor.

When I first heard this idea, I was fascinated. I am still questioning and curious if this could be the reality of the mark, and that it has already come.

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It's disappointing when people come up with such theories. I think it's great to consider as wide a variety as possible when it comes to theorizing, but at some point we must be willing to either eliminate, or at the very least move further down the list of priorities theories which do not clearly conform to what the prophecy actually says.

This issue of buying and selling, or in other words our relationship to and dependence on the material was a dominant theme in Jesus' teachings. Paul described the love of money as the root of all evil and Jesus talked about seeds which were choked by the "cares and pleasures" of this life. Our relationship between the spiritual and the physical is a fundamental part of our relationship to God and for the most part the world as a whole has become completely distracted away from God, to the point that we easily use phrases like, "money makes the world go round" (as opposed to God), "money doesn't grow on trees" (as though what does grow on trees is of less value than money) and "earn a living" (as though anyone not working for money hasn't earned the right to live).

So, when the prophecy clearly states the purpose of the Mark as a means of manipulating our dependence on buying/selling, and then people come along with some other explanation which does not account for our dependence on buying/selling, it strongly communicates a desire to avoid confronting our dependence on materialism.

LastSeven said:

So you pick out the least important part of my post and respond to that

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I don't think "what IS friendship with the world" as the least important part of your post. After all, you're the one who initiated that line of reasoning by quoting James and it is completely relevant to the topic. The fact is that homosexuality was your first priority (at least in terms of your first suggestion as to what it means to be "friends of the world") and "the love of money" (or, really, anything to do with materialism) didn't make the list, despite the fact that Jesus didn't say one thing about homosexuality (that we know of) and said A LOT about our relationship to materialism and despite the fact that materialism had already been heavily featured in my previous post (which you were responding to). It's almost like you deliberately left it off the list, as though acknowledging problems with materialism would somehow contradict your point.

In a later post you said...

LastSeven said:

Certainly I didn't give you a complete list.

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Exactly. You prioritized homosexuality over greed; a branch as compared to the root.

LastSeven said:

It's meaningless in regards to our salvation or lack of it.

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This is in response to one of my comments about the importance of our relationship to materialism. According to your response, it is meaningless, meaning that everything Jesus said about materialism, all the warnings, all the admonishments, and Paul's reference to the root of all evil also becoming meaningless when it comes to salvation. In other words, Christians can be as greedy as they want, and still be saved, or, to put it into the context of this topic, despite the strong warning, Christians should feel no shame or guilt about taking the mark because their relationship to the material does not affect their salvation.

The prophecy clearly says that we will not be able to buy or sell without the Mark, but that anyone who takes it will be cursed by God, but you've developed a convenient little doctrine which relies heavily on extorting God's grace in that it should not matter how you behave; he owes you salvation anyway, perhaps because of a prayer you said in the past or perhaps because of some other religious observances like church attendance or reading your bible etc.

That won't work with God, L7. Remember the people standing at the gate proclaiming their relationship with Jesus, and Jesus telling them to go away? It wasn't homosexuals or atheists. These were people who believed they were right with God; that they should be let in and yet they were denied. God did not choose to forgive them. He has that right.

LastSeven said:

Here again you're showing me that you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's o.k. to take the mark of the beast. I'm saying the mark of the beast can not be a physical object or tattoo.

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I understand. It's important to at least make a show of resisting the Mark. You can't just come right out and say, "it's okay to take the Mark" but you HAVE developed strategies to suggest, insinuate, imply etc that taking the Mark will not matter anyway. You've made it quite clear, several times, that the only sin which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy of the HS and you've made it equally clear that you do not view taking the Mark (whether as a spiritual or physical thing) equates to blasphemy of the HS. The logic leads to the conclusion that taking the Mark can, and probably will be, forgiven and more than that, it strongly comes across (at least to me) that you are counting on forgiveness for taking the Mark or, perhaps even worse, that God would be unloving not to forgive someone for taking the Mark. I definitely blasphemy of the HS.

LastSeven said:

Haven't you read about the mark of God in Deuteronomy? The hand represents what you do, and the forehead represents what you think and believe.

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Except, that is neither what the Deuteronomy verse nor the Revelation prophecy say about either the Mark of God or the Mark of the Beast. That is an interpretation you have applied, which is fine since we're all trying to interpret reality around us, but your interpretation is not consistent with what the prophecy describes. Your interpretation does not address our relationship to materialism (which is most commonly expressed through the use of money or, buying and selling). "What we think with our heads and what we do with our hands" could apply to just about anything, which is a valid topic in itself. Even Paul admonished us to do "all things to the glory of God", but the Mark prophecy is more specific than, "whatever you may end up doing with your hands" by clarifying that the purpose of the Mark will be to buy/sell.

You are using the similarity from Deuteronomy to distort the Mark prophecy away from it's intended meaning. It is not surprising that the Beast would assign his Mark to the forehead or hand, since he is trying to mock God. The concept of "what we think and what we do with our hand" is a spiritual concept illustrated through the physical. God wants us to be aware of our thoughts and actions in how we relate to him.

Satan has twisted this spiritual concept into something physical. Instead of contemplating our dependence on God, whether through our thoughts or actions, we will be tricked into depending on the Beast for our daily bread. The spiritual becomes perverted by the physical where our only concern becomes, "How will I eat or drink, feed my family, or pay the bills"?

The more you associate the Mark of the Beast with God's Mark, in an attempt to legitimize your dependence on materialism, the more you help to encourage that perversion in others and the closer you come to genuine blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

daughterofthemosthigh7 said:

I did... And just trying to figure out where it says in the Bible as ambassadors of Christ and His Kingdom we are to disguise ourselves or hide our faces... ?
2 Timothy 3:5 KJV

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But, what are your thoughts on the explanation in the link?

Kenny'sID said:

I think the video goes way way too far in telling people to quite their jobs.

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It doesn't tell anyone to do anything. It asks people to examine their motivations.

Kenny'sID said:

Just because people work for a living hardly means they love money

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When you say "work for a living" it seems to suggests that people who do not work for money do not deserve to live.

Kenny'sID said:

People who work for a living should be respected, not told they are lovers of money for that reason alone.

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You seem quite upset that one would even suggest working for money could equate to the love of money. I think it is significant that Christians rarely talk about practical examples of what it means to love money. "Money loving" seems to be this mythical concept which only exists in a tiny minority of undisclosed mega wealthy bad guys.

Kenny'sID said:

TBL was exactly right yet you tore it down the way you did

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She was right in saying that Paul made tents? It would be stupid of me to dispute that, wouldn't it? The account clearly illustrates a situation in which Paul temporarily made tents. But then again, TBL wasn't only sharing a bit of Bible trivia. She was communicating a point that, if Paul worked for money, then it should be okay for us to work for money. But this conclusion is based on three assumptions, 1) Paul regularly made tents, 2) Paul was right for using his time to work for money instead of teaching the Corinthians to share with him, 3) That Paul's behavior constitutes a blanket approval for all people to spend their time working for money.

Kenny'sID said:

At least, in my view, you are border-lining on fanaticism.

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Haha a Christian fanatic. Practically scandalous!

Kenny'sID said:

in that you may be way off on the money issue,

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Sure, that is a possibility, but I've got some pretty compelling evidence to support my case. I've not seen your evidence to the contrary. Mostly I see outrage at one who would dare to question loyalty to the worldly system of wages.

Hazrus said:

I'll chime in here and say that I also agree with Last Seven's position that the Mark is a spiritual mark, ie. non-physical, and that the Mark has been around since Revelation was written.

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There is no question that there is a strong spiritual element to the Mark. But it's hard to imagine a scenario where you are buying/selling with your thoughts/actions. I suppose actions would fit well with the buying/selling aspect, but then you've gone back to the physical, which you say is not relevant to the Mark (I think), but the stated purpose of the Mark is to regulate buying/selling which is, by definition, a physical behavior.

What kind of thoughts/actions would prevent one from buying/selling so that your theory is consistent with what the prophecy actually says?

Hazrus said:

Just because one believes the Mark is spiritual does not mean they do not take it seriously, nor that they don't take materialism seriously. The logic can make sense either way.

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Depends on what you mean by "spiritual". For the most part, what I've heard from the spiritualist is an argument which makes and concern for the material fairly meaningless. The Mark is not physical, it is spiritual, in which case there is no need to be concerned about the material. Or, have I misunderstood where you see overlap between the two?

Hazrus said:

Despite the above, I applaud you for bringing up important points about reliance on money and our need to continually avoid following the patterns of this world.

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Thanks Hazrus. You've been consistently courteous with me despite our sometimes strong differences. I appreciate that.