Mark of the Beast, the matrix, and your job!

LastSeven said:

You know that Jesus said the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, right? So if that's the only unforgivable sin, and taking the mark is a sin, then it is forgivable, which makes your statement false. And based on what Revelation said about those who take the mark, that sounds like a conundrum, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

Depends on what GOD believes constitutes blasphemy of Holy Spirit. I have a feeling it could include more than just words. But even then, it's God's forgiveness so he could forgive anything he wanted to within the realm of existence, since it all belongs to him, but the warning in the Revelation against the Mark is pretty clear. Just because God could forgive someone for taking the Mark doesn't mean he will.

LastSeven said:

Let me ask you this: Do you believe that everyone with the mark is doomed and everyone without the mark is saved?

Click to expand...

Ultimately, salvation is up to God. I believe he will work it out with each person on a deeply personal level. But, have you seen the warning regarding the Mark? It's pretty intense.

REV 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

REV 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

REV 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We've already been given the warning. Anyone who takes the Mark will, according to this warning, be "doomed". While it is possible that God could forgive someone for taking the Mark, it appears that he's trying to make it as clear as possible that he won't forgive them for taking it.

As for people automatically being saved for not taking the Mark, I don't think there is anything automatic about it. Not taking the Mark doesn't guarantee rightness with God, but I think I think it does illustrate a willingness or perhaps a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit which could lead to good fruit.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

How do you know the mark is a RFID chip, where is this found in the bible?

Click to expand...

Hi MTF. Good question. The word "microchip" isn't found in the Bible but then again neither is the instruction that we will only know what the Mark is because it will be called "The Mark" by the system.

The conclusion that the Mark of the Beast will physically manifest as a microchip implant is based on contextual evidence, both from what the prophecy says about the Mark and how that description compares to what's actually happening in the world around us. The prophecy says the Mark will be used to control buying and selling, on a global scale (i.e. rich/poor, free/slave, small/great).

This concern with materialism or mammon (i.e. money and the things money can buy) is hardly exclusive to the Mark prophecy. Jesus went on at length about our relationship to mammon/materialism, giving dozens of warnings about how we should, and should not interact with it. And, as the angel in Revelation 19:10 tells John, the "testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy". If we want to understand the spirit or essence of prophecy, the best place to look is the testimony of Jesus. He said we cannot serve God and mammon at the same time without cheating on one or the other, which makes sense considering that God's kingdom is about loving one another whereas the worldly system of wages is all about being paid for our love. It's a similar analogy to the Bride of Christ vs the harlot of Babylon; the Bride helps because she loves the groom, where as the prostitute talks about love, but really only wants money for her time.

When all these spiritual concepts are put together into a bigger whole, it becomes clear that our relationship to materialism really is important to God. There is so much more that could be said on this particular topic of relationships, but for now I only point it out to show that the monetary description of the Mark is an important part of the prophecy.

Along with the purpose of the Mark (i.e. buying/selling) and who it's for (i.e. great/small, rich/poor, free/slave), we're also told the location of the mark, in/on the fight hand.

Although it has been long, and many generations have thought theirs to be the last, prophecy will be fulfilled at some point. We're supposed to be watching and waiting, part of which means examining events in the world and comparing them to what the prphecy says. We should not be paranoid while doing this, but at the same time we should not become complacent, either.

Microchip implants fit the description of the prophecy better than any previous technology or system. While it is still possible that the Mark will not be mircochip implants, it would be foolish not to keep them in the forefront of our list of possibilities and to start preparing proportionately. If we're wrong, no big deal, but reality as compared to what the prophecy actually says is getting to the point where it's becoming much harder to say that there is no legitimate connection between the two.

I would suggest that people who have trouble with a literal "buy/sell" interpretation of the Mark are probably doing so because of their dependence on buying/selling. It makes sense, and is exactly the reason why Jesus told us not to be afraid when he said that we shouldn't allow even basic necessities like food and clothing become the motivation for why we work. God knows what we need and he has promised to care for us, but he wants us to do it his way, and not our own.

Part of the Lord's prayer is that we ask for God's will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. In Heaven they don't only work for one another if they get paid for it, so that is not the kind of system we should promote here on Earth, either. God wants us to trust his system of working for love. The Mark represents the ultimate dividing line between his system and the worldly system. The spiritual concept of loyalty/worship will be expressed through the choice we make between the two.

LastSeven said:

This is what the gospel says, correct?

Click to expand...

No.

LastSeven said:

James 4:4 says "You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

Click to expand...

I'm curious how you would define "friendship with the world" in practical terms. Like, what does that actually mean?

LastSeven said:

For example, a microchip could be forced on someone

Click to expand...

It could be forced, but there is no practical reason for it to be forced, depending on what you mean by "force". If you mean that a person could be strapped to a table and a microchip physically forced into their hand (or forehead) then consider what the circumstances are which would lead to such force. Do people really need to be forced to buy/sell? Do they need to be forced to put food on the table or "earn a living" No, such concepts are our daily bread and butter already. People will take the Mark, (which is what will allow them to continue buying/selling) because buying/selling is their means of survival.

But, if you mean force in terms of psychological and spiritual manipulation, as in people who feel forced to sell themselves to the worldly system of wages because they do not, or cannot, imagine any other way of living, then yeah, practically the whole world will be forced to take the Mark. However, in Jesus' teachings we do find an alternative in which he said that anyone who decides to step out in faith, trust God, and work to build his kingdom, first, will be provided for by God.

LastSeven said:

The mark has to be a choice. And I don't mean it has to be a choice to take the mark, no the mark itself has to be the choice. It has to be. Anything else doesn't make sense.

Click to expand...

The Mark does, exactly, represent a choice, and this is where it is so critical to understand the stated purpose of the Mark. The prophecy is quite specific that the Mark will be used to regulate buying/selling. That is the choice. Trust in the system of the Beast, where you sell your time for wages so that you may buy your food and clothing, or trust in God's system, where you work for love and God takes care of you. Our choice demonstrates where our faith really lies. James described it as showing our faith by our works.

LastSeven said:

If you say the decision to take the mark dooms you to hell, then the mark itself becomes only a symbol and meaningless in itself. It becomes a symbol of your choice, nothing more.

Click to expand...

But, if we do not have choice, or, as in your example (assuming I've understood you properly), choice becomes meaningless based on what we choose, then what is the point of free will? Even "accepting God's free gift of grace" becomes pointless according to the theory you've suggested, because "acceptance" is a choice. Why is acceptance of God's grace a valid choice, but acceptance of the Beast's Mark not a valid choice? They are both physical in practical terms. After all, how can we claim to have "fruit" if such fruit is only an imagination or good intention? If the fruit does not manifest itself in some physical way as a result of choice, then what is the point of having fruit?

LastSeven said:

Secondly, let's say for example you insist that a physical object (microchip) or a physical mark (tattoo) could be the mark of the beast, then what happens if someone, even willingly, takes this mark and then repents and turns to Jesus?

Click to expand...

Depends on the repentance. The western church in general has come to see repentance as somewhat of a formality or ritual of the religion these days. It rarely constitutes any kind of significant or practical change. Jesus said, "if your hand offends you, cut it off". If a person took the Mark in their right hand (as the prophecy indicates) and then decides to repent by cutting off their hand (and thus cutting off the Mark) then I could imagine God honoring such a sincere show of repentance. But if the person were to "repent in their heart" only, with no practical change, I should think God wouldn't think much of such a shallow display of repentance.

Ultimately, such considerations are between God and the individual, but God is no fool. He examines right down into the very most basic substance of the heart; he will know what repentance is genuine and what repentance isn't.

LastSeven said:

Only your own personal choice can have any meaning to God.

Click to expand...

A decision to choose the system of the Beast (ie. the Mark) vs God's system (i.e. working for love) will very much be a personal choice. I'm trying to keep this answer short, but I suspect I've probably not dealt properly with your point of view.

LastSeven said:

And you can make that choice with or without a microchip; again, rendering the physical object entirely meaningless in itself.

Click to expand...

Our relationship to the physical is very much important to us, being physical beings. Fear, greed, pride, laziness, self righteousness, hypocrisy, etc...these are all spiritually based concepts, but they manifest themselves physically in our day to day lives. Our relationship to these things is vert important to God.

We will never learn to overcome the physical by pretending that it isn't an issue for us. We must learn to accept just how weak we are when it comes to the physical before we can learn to overcome those weaknesses. The Mark is an attempt to exploit our weaknesses through fear and greed. This is why Jesus said we should not let fear of what we will eat or drink or wear stop us from seeking his kingdom first. He said all the nations of the world chase after these physical things, but that we, his servants, should not be like them. We should put God's kingdom first, which means learning to trust God for the things we need rather than the worldly system of wages.

Atheists also go to all the same Jobs as Christians. They don't need faith in God because they understand that money is what pays the bills. So how is the Christian, working in the same job, following the same principles of the worldly system any different other than what they profess with their lips?

This is what the Mark of the Beast hinges on, the idea that there is no problem with the beast's system. It's normal to force payment for our help. Not only is it normal, but we could not survive if we did not force payment for our help. Families would starve. Food would miraculously disappear. Humanity would die. The world would stop turning...all without money.

That is the essence of what the Mark represents, manifested, for our choice as humans, in a physical form to which we can easily relate. God or mammon; just like Jesus taught.

LastSeven said:

You don't think all those who reject Jesus are doomed?

Click to expand...

Hi L7. Your question comes across to me as a little unfair, since the question I answered wasn't "are all those who reject Jesus doomed". My answer (i.e. "No") was based on a much broader line of reasoning you employed, which was predicated on the idea that the Mark of the Beast will not manifest physically. I do not believe the gospel supports only a metaphorical interpretation of the Mark, as you suggested.

LastSeven said:

To me it means embracing what the world teaches rather than what the Lord teaches. For example, that homosexuality is o.k. or that there are many paths or heaven, or as long as you're a good person God won't condemn you, or anything else that contradicts the word of God.

Click to expand...

Thanks for offering your suggestions here. I still have some disagreement with your conclusions, even here, but I think the list could also be expanded to include the love of money and I think any list which does not include materialism in some way suggests at least some bias. After all, Jesus said A LOT about our relationship to materialism and one of his strongest followers called the "Love of money" the root of all evil. And, of course, the purpose of the Mark of the Beast is to control buying/selling.

LastSeven said:

A microchip could never mean that much to God. What matters to God is what's in your heart.

Click to expand...

Depends on what kind of choice the microchip represents. Of course, the microchip itself is just a piece of physical material. But it represnets a choice between trusting the Beast's system or trusting God's system. If you want to buy/sell (which most of the world believes they cannot live without) then you will justify taking the Mark. If you reject the Mark, then you will be forced to rely on God for your daily bread. That is the choice.

LastSeven said:

It doesn't matter if most people would freely choose to take the microchip. Even if only one person could possibly have it forced on them that proves it can not be the mark. In fact, even if nobody ever has it forced on them, the fact that it could be forced means it can not be the mark. The mark can only be a choice. Therefore it can not be anything physical. It has to be in your heart.

Click to expand...

Your argument breaks down when you consider that the Mark won't need to be forced (at least not physically). People will choose to take the Mark because they want to put food on the table. They may not like it at first, but there are a host of viable convenient doctrines out there to soothe a burning conscience. You are promoting one of them right now. None of your reasoning deals at all with our dependence on materialism and buying/selling.

LastSeven said:

It's the physical object embedded in your skin that's meaningless. Completely meaningless.

Click to expand...

Nah, our relationship to the physical isn't meaningless at all. That's why Jesus told us not to be afraid for what we will eat, drink, or wear. We should not let fear for physical provision stop us from seeking God's kingdom, first, but most of the time when you talk to people about working for love, their first response is, "yeah, but if I work for love, how will I pay the bills"?

What you seem to be promoting is a hyper-spiritual interpretation which seeks to hide the physical behind a lot of bluff about the spiritual, as though if you can just make a big deal about eh spiritual then the physical will become inconsequential. That's just how it comes across to me, especially when I compare your comments about the physical being meaningless to all Jesus said about our relationship to the physical being important.

LastSeven said:

Then I don't think you understand the parable of the prodigal son. God forgives all sins, except for blasphemy against the holy spirit, and because we know this, we can also know that no matter what you put under your skin you will always have the choice to accept or reject Jesus and you will always have the choice to repent and return to the father. And therefore, it makes no difference what you put under your skin. The only thing that matters is what's in your heart, and no microchip in the world can trump that.

Click to expand...

This is probably the most perfect summarization I've ever heard to justify taking the Mark of the Beast. It has that ring of complacent Christianity which has turned God's forgiveness into a contract, a debt of obligation where Christians can say, "it really doesn't matter what I do because God will forgive me". I realize you preface the thought with, "we have a choice to repent" but even that bit of goodness comes across as perfunctory, as though it's just part of the ritual. "I can take the Mark so long as I know in my heart that if I'm doing the wrong thing God will forgive me for it".

But, along with James, I believe our actions do show what is in our heart. Otherwise, the "what's in the heart" argument becomes a convenient doctrine to cover for any kind of selfish behavior. Jesus said that a time is coming when we will be killed by those who think they are doing God a service. Isn't this scenario exactly what your "it's not the behavior but rather what's in the heart that counts" doctrine is leading to? These people probably reconcile the death of Christians as something like, "Sure, I'm killing them, but it's because they are heretics and God knows what's in my heart!"

LastSeven said:

I don't believe for one second that being a part of the economy and going to work every day is in any way evil or a rejection of God. Jesus himself was a carpenter and earned his wages.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I figured it would come to something like this, and this is pretty much the basis for all your other arguments. There's no problem with the system of wages, buying/selling etc, so of course you would see no problem with taking a microchip in your right hand which allows you to continue participating in that system.

And, there's no evidence, whatsoever, that Jesus "earned his wages" as a carpenter. The account only says that other people asked, "Isn't this the carpenter's son"? And even then the context was one of self righteousness. The people were upset that Jesus, the guy who had grown up with them, presumed to correct them. That's why Jesus followed it up with, "a prophet is not without honor except in his own home". Because they knew his family and knew him as a kid they found it difficult to respect him, or, as the saying goes, "familiarity breeds contempt".

It had nothing to do with Jesus earning wages as a carpenter. But ok, lets just assume that you are right. That Jesus did work for wages as a carpenter. Then what happened? Obviously, he would have had to quit his job to become a full time preacher traveling around from city to city. He even told his followers to quit their jobs to follow him. In order for your theory to work, Jesus would have had to be filling orders, delivering the product of his craft to those who hired his services etc, all while performing his missionary work, but not only that; he would have needing to do all that while asking his followers to quit their full time jobs to become fishers of men, which would make him a hypocrite.

No, L7. If you want to talk about blasphemy of the spirit, then I'd suggest that turning Jesus into just another wage slave to make you feel better about your own dependence on the system gets pretty close to it.

ToBeLoved said:

What is your scriptural support for saying Jesus said this? Include verses

Click to expand...

Hi TBL. Thanks for asking. For the sake of context I'll post the comment of mine which you're replying to here. "buying and selling is one of those mundane, ordinary, everyday activities Jesus cited as at least part of the reason for why those people were destroyed."

"Those people" is a reference to Jesus' comments on why the people of Noah and Lots day were destroyed. The reference to buying/selling is found in Luke 17:28 .

ToBeLoved said:

One thing I don't understand is that the video narrator tells people to quit their jobs.

Click to expand...

Not quite. It suggests that people who are only doing their jobs to get paid should consider working for another motivation, which is actually less abrupt than the way Jesus put it (see matthew 6:24-34 for reference).

ToBeLoved said:

That seems to me that the person is somewhat paranoid, especially since he doesn't address what he means except to say money is the root of all evil.

Click to expand...

Nope, he says the love of money is the root of all evil, just like Paul said, which was quite similar to all the various comments Jesus made about our dependence on mammon (money and the things money can buy).

ToBeLoved said:

This is true when someone loves money or values money much more than God,

Click to expand...

I wonder what this means in practical terms. How does one love money "much" more than God, and does this imply that loving money just a little more than God is okay?

ToBeLoved said:

however there are many people who do not value money any higher than taking care of their families.

Click to expand...

I also wonder what this comments means. It sounds like the implication is that, if it can be said that one is serving mammon in order to provide for their families, then said service is justified, becuase, of course, how could a loving God say that we cannot take care of our families?

And a huge bulk of Christianity will end up taking the Mark of the Beast on just such an argument. But, God is not an infidel or lazy bum. He can take care of families, so there really is no reason to justify service to mammon on the basis of taking care of families, and this is at least partly why Jesus said, "anyone who loves their family more than me is not worthy to follow me".

ToBeLoved said:

So, I think it is somewhat one sided. Or so it seems to suggest that we all value money way to highly. But is that true?

Click to expand...

Not all, but certainly many. The video asks people to examine their motives, but to do so in a brutally honest way. If the love of money really is the root of all evil, then it is wise to expect that it won't go down without a fight. It is the idea that the love of money isn't a problem for us that causes it to be such a problem for us.

Bethany311 said:

This is a very interesting post to me, because I believe The Matrix movie specifically and "the system" has been highlighted to me recently by who I call God.

Click to expand...

Nice.

Bethany311 said:

Speaking of enemies... What I've been shown recently is that the system is a great deal more than just being "bound to money." I've had ample evidence within the last year that there is more to this earth than what most of us understand. I've come to learn that the earth is, in fact, the place where demons and spirits make their home. When God cast Satan and his angels out of heaven, He cast them here, on earth, until the final judgement. If that is true, they very well could be all around us, influencing us, interacting with us, a part of our daily world. From what I've seen, I believe this is true. And most of us don't know or realize it at all, and most of us don't want to... I would venture to say that these spirits and demons are our enemy. Humans become the "enemy" when they consort with these spirits, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Being able to be used and controlled by unseen evil spirits - whether knowingly or unknowingly - in that way we become "free agents" who can turn into a force of evil at any given moment.

Click to expand...

I agree there is an evil spiritual influence which happens all around us. I think that's what makes our choices all the more significant.

Bethany311 said:

The system can give you what you want. But if you think about the Matrix movie, what the heros found was that the entire system was fake, a bunch of smoke and mirrors; something to keep people appeased so they would not be a threat; so they could serve the machine's purpose well. Yet the system was all a sham, NOT REAL. Only in coming apart and away from the system, becoming disconnected from it and brought to life in your true form ("Why do my eyes hurt?" "Because you've never used them before."), could you see it for what it really was... I think coming out of the system is more than trying to quit making money with wrong motives. It is coming apart from anything and everything that is a part of this world, this kingdom, and stepping into a new one... the REAL one. The Kingdom that actually brings you to life.

Click to expand...

I think you make a good point that coming out of the system involves more than just how we relate to money/work. Jesus said a lot to address our sense of respectability. In the system we give each other special titles. We wear special clothes. We make a show of our charity so others can see how good we are. We give respect to positions of authority more than we do to the people who exercise genuine authority. We put emotional and familial relationships on a higher priority than God. There is much to consider when it comes to leaving the system.

As for this video, we've chosen to focus, in particular on, our attachment to the financial system, especially since the Mark of the Beast revolves around buying and selling, Jesus said we cannot serve mammon (money and the things money can but) and Paul said the love of money is the root of all evil. There are three testimonies here which all point to the same root problem.

The financial system is not real, in that it is a counterfeit. It "works" in the sense that it gives people a reason to work, but the reason is pretty terrible. The evidence all around is that our current financial system encourages greed and fear, whereas the system Jesus taught encourages sharing, wisdom, and discipline, all 3 of which are necessary to make the Kingdom of Heave work the way God intends it to work.

This is why Paul said, "He who does not work (in the community) should not eat (in the community". I've added the "in the community" bits because that is the context in which Paul was writing; to a community of Christians who were living and working together. The rule was a bit of wisdom against abuse by lazy people who had the idea that all this "peace and love" was a convenient way to sleep all and still be fed.

A person could come into the community and laze around, but if they wanted to eat, they needed to help with the work. It was a bit of wisdom Paul introduced to refine our understanding of what it means to work in the Kingdom of Heaven and to share with one another.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.