Mark 16:16

[MrJim]

Point of information: The New Covenant is solely with Israel (See Jeremiah and Hebrews).

What?
I guess you're right, since the church is the new Israel. Is that what you're saying (Rom 11 I think).

 

[MrJim]

Yes I know. But this idea is totally unscriptural. Notice what you've written, "it woudl still fall under Old Testament Law." What salvation is there in the Old Testament? There is none. Those who lived before Jesus were saved only by believing in the promise of a Messiah, that is, in the promise of the New Covenant. Salvation is through Christ alone. There's no such thing as "being saved by the Old Covenant."

The Scripture teaches that the bodies of many Old Testament saints were raised to life at Jesus' death, because the curse of sin had finally been lifted. That's why Jesus could say that the sinner would be with him in paradise. The Old Covenant was a covenant of works, and we know that all are saved by grace, apart from works of the Law. Thus, it's quite wrong to think that Jesus saved the sinner through Moses. It was Christ himself (that is, the New Covenant) who saved the sinner. Don't you agree?

Perhaps my phrasing isn't correct. I'm repeating what I've heard on this so don't count me as the authority. The idea as I understand it is that the same "rules" applied to the thief on the cross as it did for any of the OT people. They will say he's gone to "Abraham's Bosom" or something like that and that's why the baptism wasn't necessary. I wish I could remember where I ran across this idea...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Mark 16:16 (King James Version)16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


I know I have been taught my whole life that one does not need to be baptized to be saved. But the words spoken by Jesus here says he that believeth and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Right now, I'm am not relying on what man says to be saved, but what the bible says. What are your thoughts n this verse. I've heard grace and faith my whole life, but Jesus is saying we need to follow is baptism.

Lets say a person has believed in vain and water bapized does not help

once a person believes they are baptized into Christ by the Spirit.
1cor 12:12-13, romans 8:9b

man can not fulfill this requirement

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit...



At the moment of salvation. Without the work of the Holy Spirit there is no spiritual birth. At the moment that a person trusts in Jesus Christ as Savior the Holy Spirit come to indwell them, regenerate them (make them a new creature in Christ) and baptize them (immerse them into the body of Christ). All of that - indwelling, regenerating, baptizing, faith - happens simultaneously and instantly. That is what we call "getting saved".

Titus 3:5-7

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

I Corinthians 12:13

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Romans 8:9

"If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience; rather, it is a fact. One who has come to Jesus Christ in faith for salvation receives all of the work of the Spirit at that moment. We are then called by God's Word to a life of walking in step with the Spirit (which is obedience to the Word). That is also referred to (in Ephesians 5:18) as being "filled with the Spirit".


--

sorry did not read ahead..

 

[arunma]

What?
I guess you're right, since the church is the new Israel. Is that what you're saying (Rom 11 I think).

I agree. The New Covenant is with Israel, but Israel is now the church, and is comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles.

Perhaps my phrasing isn't correct. I'm repeating what I've heard on this so don't count me as the authority. The idea as I understand it is that the same "rules" applied to the thief on the cross as it did for any of the OT people. They will say he's gone to "Abraham's Bosom" or something like that and that's why the baptism wasn't necessary. I wish I could remember where I ran across this idea...

I've heard precisely the same idea from certain persons who believe in infant baptism. As far as infant baptism goes, there are two schools of thought about the sinner on the cross. The first is that he was saved under the Old Covenant, which as I said, is totally unbiblical (actually, this view is in the minority, as far as I know). The second view is that he was saved by "baptism by blood."

Baptism by blood is a Roman Catholic belief. It states that Christian martyrs and other people who die before recieving water baptism are still saved because they earnestly to be baptized, but were unable to. Notice that I said "still saved," because Roman Catholics believe, nonetheless, that one must be baptized to be saved. I don't fully understand this view, because I would think that all unbaptized Christians desire to be baptized in order to fulfill Christ's command.

Personally, I think the most reasonable conclusion is that water baptism does nothing to save. To say otherwise would be to invoke legalism.

 

[MrJim]

Baptism by blood is a Roman Catholic belief. It states that Christian martyrs and other people who die before recieving water baptism are still saved because they earnestly to be baptized, but were unable to.

Baptism of Blood is also an anabaptist belief. Difference is that it was a believer's baptism and also not a salvation baptism. Story is told of at least one man who was imprisoned because he was a believer and executed before he could be baptized. It was considered that he recieved a baptism of blood (Martyr's Mirror). I supposed we'd recognize this more if we lived in a country where Christians were persecuted.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I agree. The New Covenant is with Israel, but Israel is now the church, and is comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles.


.

verses please ....so one can confirm thu the scriptures


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew or Greek [no relgious status], there is neither bond or free [no social status], there is neither male or female [sexual status] : for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

one ? what?

one body which is the Christ as Jesus as the head. 1 cor 12:12-31

 

[arunma]

Here are some Scripture passages that are generally used to support the belief that the church is Israel.

Romans 2:28-29, "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

Romans 9:6-8, "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but p “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

And the last is one verse after what you quoted.

Galatians 3:29, "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, bheirs according to promise."

 

[arunma]

Oh, here's another one that I just ran into today!

Phillipians 3:3, "For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh."

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Let read revelation 2:9, or 3:7

why does God make a point of it.

 

[constance]

Baptism of Blood is also an anabaptist belief. Difference is that it was a believer's baptism and also not a salvation baptism. Story is told of at least one man who was imprisoned because he was a believer and executed before he could be baptized. It was considered that he recieved a baptism of blood (Martyr's Mirror). I supposed we'd recognize this more if we lived in a country where Christians were persecuted.

Menno! Do you like my sig?

Constance