Mark 16:16 misinterpreted

Schroeder · Oct 24, 2005

It is given that the word baptism here is water baptism by most all denom. That baffles me very much because there is many passages that show this very wrong. the most obviouse is the very next verse. 17"And these signs will accompany those who BELIEVE: in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in tongues; they will pick up snakes with there hands;...ect. Well what happened in Acts 2 they apostles received the Holy Spirit and did such things. they were not water baptized. So to think it means water here is wrong. Were you and others that believed and were water baptized do such things. Was he not speaking to the Apostles themselves here. John 3:18 john 7:37-39, also show it is the Spirit. It is used to prove that water was commanded here but it is not at all.

justified · Oct 24, 2005

It's okay, Mark 16:16 isn't in the bible.

Dispy · Oct 24, 2005

Schroeder said:
It is given that the word baptism here is water baptism by most all denom. That baffles me very much because there is many passages that show this very wrong. the most obviouse is the very next verse. 17"And these signs will accompany those who BELIEVE: in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in tongues; they will pick up snakes with there hands;...ect. Well what happened in Acts 2 they apostles received the Holy Spirit and did such things. they were not water baptized. So to think it means water here is wrong. Were you and others that believed and were water baptized do such things. Was he not speaking to the Apostles themselves here. John 3:18 john 7:37-39, also show it is the Spirit. It is used to prove that water was commanded here but it is not at all.

John's baptism with water for the remission of sins was still in effect at the time of Mark 16:16.

At that time one had to believe and be water baptized to receive the remission of sins. It was still true at Pentecost. However, at Pentecost the repentant was water baptized for the remission of sins and then received the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38).

Early in the disciples ministry, they were baptized by Jesus. In John 20:22, we find that they received the Holy Ghost from Jesus. However, they were told by Jesus in Luke 24:49 that they were to wait in Jerusalem until they were enduded with the power thereof. That, they received at Pentecost. Therefore, it was not necessary for them to "repent and be baptized" at Pentecost because they had already done that earler. They received the power of the Holy Ghost in fulfillment of Jesus' promise to them.

Mark 16:16 stands by itself and means water baptis, and the work "and," in verse 17 means "in addition"...

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Schroeder · Oct 24, 2005

Dispy said:
John's baptism with water for the remission of sins was still in effect at the time of Mark 16:16.

At that time one had to believe and be water baptized to receive the remission of sins. It was still true at Pentecost. However, at Pentecost the repentant was water baptized for the remission of sins and then received the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38).

Early in the disciples ministry, they were baptized by Jesus. In John 20:22, we find that they received the Holy Ghost from Jesus. However, they were told by Jesus in Luke 24:49 that they were to wait in Jerusalem until they were enduded with the power thereof. That, they received at Pentecost. Therefore, it was not necessary for them to "repent and be baptized" at Pentecost because they had already done that earler. They received the power of the Holy Ghost in fulfillment of Jesus' promise to them.

Mark 16:16 stands by itself and means water baptis, and the work "and," in verse 17 means "in addition"...

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

You of course just blew off verse 17 and ignored what it says. And John the Baptist said he must decrease and Christ increase. meaning what. I dont read in scripture that Jesus water baptized anyone. His Johns baptism was not in effect because as John 7 states he had been glorified and therefore could adminster the Holy Spirit baptism. So it still means the same thing, if you are right it was just for the Apostles and not a command to all, and or it was water and all would in addition be able to do such things, which we are not able to do. John the baptist was strictly for returning to God or getting perpared for Christ and his Baptism of the Spirit and way of salvation. Scripture also speaks of those that were baptized by Johns baptism and told that it did not unite them into Christ so they were to be rebaptized which shows that what you say is not true that his counted. Paul asked them what baptism they received and they said Johns and Paul said what? How then could what you say be true.

Dispy · Oct 26, 2005

Schroeder said:
It is given that the word baptism here is water baptism by most all denom. That baffles me very much because there is many passages that show this very wrong. the most obviouse is the very next verse. 17 "And these signs will accompany those who BELIEVE: in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in tongues; they will pick up snakes with there hands;...ect. Well what happened in Acts 2 they apostles received the Holy Spirit and did such things. they were not water baptized. So to think it means water here is wrong. Were you and others that believed and were water baptized do such things. Was he not speaking to the Apostles themselves here. John 3:18 john 7:37-39, also show it is the Spirit. It is used to prove that water was commanded here but it is not at all.

Dispy said:
John's baptism with water for the remission of sins was still in effect at the time of Mark 16:16.

At that time one had to believe and be water baptized to receive the remission of sins. It was still true at Pentecost. However, at Pentecost the repentant was water baptized for the remission of sins and then received the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38).

Early in the disciples ministry, they were baptized by Jesus. In John 20:22, we find that they received the Holy Ghost from Jesus. However, they were told by Jesus in Luke 24:49 that they were to wait in Jerusalem until they were enduded with the power thereof. That, they received at Pentecost. Therefore, it was not necessary for them to "repent and be baptized" at Pentecost because they had already done that earler. They received the power of the Holy Ghost in fulfillment of Jesus' promise to them.

Mark 16:16 stands by itself and means water baptism, and the work "and," in verse 17 means "in addition"...

Schroeder said:
You of course just blew off verse 17 and ignored what it says.

Mark 15:"And he (Jesus) said unto them. Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel.
16 He that is believeth and is baptized will be saved: but he that believeth no shall be damned.
17 And (in addition) these signs shall follow them that believe (and were baptized); In my name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with a new tounge;
18 They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on th sick, and they shall recover."

Schroeder said:
And John the Baptist said he must decrease and Christ increase. meaning what.

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus, and was to "prepare the way of the Lord" (Matthew 3:3). This simply means that they were to follow John's teaching (repent and be baptized for the remission of sins) and then believe in, and follow Jesus when he began His ministry.

Schroeder said:
I dont read in scripture that Jesus water baptized anyone.

John 4:2 9"Though Jesus himself bapdtized not, but his disciples.

Schroeder said:
His Johns baptism was not in effect because as John 7 states he had been glorified and therefore could adminster the Holy Spirit baptism. So it still means the same thing, if you are right it was just for the Apostles and not a command to all, and or it was water and all would in addition be able to do such things, which we are not able to do. John the baptist was strictly for returning to God or getting perpared for Christ and his Baptism of the Spirit and way of salvation. Scripture also speaks of those that were baptized by Johns baptism and told that it did not unite them into Christ so they were to be rebaptized which shows that what you say is not true that his counted. Paul asked them what baptism they received and they said Johns and Paul said what? How then could what you say be true.

I will respond to the above when you show your Scriptural support and explanation for the above comments.

Those that were baptized, by John, did not have to be rebaptized to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It appears that you might be using Acts 19:1-9 to prove that those baptized by John had to be re-baptized in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this (what John said), they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (by John).
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

No where does it say that Paul bapized them. They recieved the Holy Spirit by Paul just laying hands on them, just as in Acts 8:14-17.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Schroeder · Oct 27, 2005

Dispy said:
Mark 15:"And he (Jesus) said unto them. Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel.
16 He that is believeth and is baptized will be saved: but he that believeth no shall be damned.
17 And (in addition) these signs shall follow them that believe (and were baptized); In my name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with a new tounge;
18 They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on th sick, and they shall recover."

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus, and was to "prepare the way of the Lord" (Matthew 3:3). This simply means that they were to follow John's teaching (repent and be baptized for the remission of sins) and then believe in, and follow Jesus when he began His ministry.

John 4:2 9"Though Jesus himself bapdtized not, but his disciples.

I will respond to the above when you show your Scriptural support and explanation for the above comments.

Those that were baptized, by John, did not have to be rebaptized to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It appears that you might be using Acts 19:1-9 to prove that those baptized by John had to be re-baptized in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this (what John said), they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (by John).
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

No where does it say that Paul bapized them. They recieved the Holy Spirit by Paul just laying hands on them, just as in Acts 8:14-17.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

maybe we are misunderstanding each other. I do not believe Mark 16:16 is water baptism. and dont believe Christ commanded it for salvation or forgivness of sins. dont believe it is necessary at all to be done. Acts 19:1 should show that Mark 16:16 is about the Spirit as well. for we see that those things mentioned in Mark 16:17 only happened to those that were baptized by the Spirit. John the Baptist baptism was for one purpose to show Christ as the messiah. He never says to do this to believe in christ. only that it was done to reveal him. Than he says you must do as Christ teaches. So i am not teaching a rebaptism at all but that water baptism is not part of the saving grace of God. you receive the Spirit by believing on and accepting God's Son Jesus Christ. People keep using Mark 16:16 as a passage that supports the command of water baptism when it isnt even saying water but the Spirit baptism.

Schroeder · Oct 27, 2005

justified said:
It's okay, Mark 16:16 isn't in the bible.

well they keep using it and interpreting it wrong when they do, so its hard to just say that.

Dispy · Oct 28, 2005

Schroeder said:
maybe we are misunderstanding each other. I do not believe Mark 16:16 is water baptism. and dont believe Christ commanded it for salvation or forgivness of sins. dont believe it is necessary at all to be done. Acts 19:1 should show that Mark 16:16 is about the Spirit as well. for we see that those things mentioned in Mark 16:17 only happened to those that were baptized by the Spirit. John the Baptist baptism was for one purpose to show Christ as the messiah. He never says to do this to believe in christ. only that it was done to reveal him. Than he says you must do as Christ teaches. So i am not teaching a rebaptism at all but that water baptism is not part of the saving grace of God. you receive the Spirit by believing on and accepting God's Son Jesus Christ. People keep using Mark 16:16 as a passage that supports the command of water baptism when it isnt even saying water but the Spirit baptism.

It clear that we misunderstand each other, and also that we do not agree with each other.

I do believe the Mark 16:16 is speaking of water baptism. Also, John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus, "preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4).

Matthew 3:11 states (John speaking) "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire."

Water baptism continued all through the ministry of Jesus while He was upon the earth, and was still going on at Pentecost, and later. However, the Holy Spirit baptism, by Jesus, was added to those that repented and were water baptized at Pentecost. Jesus was the baptizer with the Holy Ghost to those water baptized repentants. That was in fulfillment of John's remarks in Matt.3:11.

Mark 16:16 was spoken by Jesus prior to His return to heaven. Water baptism was still to be practised, but it was prior to Pentecost. Jesus was not yet baptizing the water baptized repentants with the Holy Ghost.

Those believers at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-7) were baptized "unto John's baptism" (vs 3), an no doubt prior to Pentecost. Therefore, they would not have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as those at Pentecost did. The events of Acts 19 took place at least 15 years after Pentecost.

There are a few things one must keep in mind when we are studying the gospels. First of all, we should keep in mind what Jesus said about His ministry. He said in Matthew 15:24 "...I am not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He even commanded His disciples in 10:5 "...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of Samiaria enter ye not.

What did Jesus and His disciples preach? The gospel of the kingdom/the kingdom at hand (about to be established).

In Romans 15:8 Paul tells us "...that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (Israel) to confirm the promises made to the fathers."

What were some of those promises? Well back in Exodus 19:3-7 God told Moses to tell the children of Israel that if they would keep His commandments then they would become a holy nation, and a kingdom of priests.

In Exodus 30:17-21 we find that before one could become a priest, they had to undergo a ceremonial washing (baptism.)

So what was John the Baptist's mission as the forerunner of Jesus? He was to prepare the nation of Israel to be that holy nation and nation of priests, which would prepare the way for Jesus to establish His kingdom.

Well we know from studying the gospels that the Jews, as a nation rejected their King and His Kingdom.

Even after Pentecost, the believing water baptized repentances received the promised Holy Ghost. Peter, in Acts 3:19-21, told his listeners that if they, as a nation, would repent of the murder of Jesus, then He would return and restore all things. However, when we read further, Israel's leaders still rejected their King and His Kingdom, when they stoned Stephen in Acts 7, and therefore God set the nation of Israel aside, just as he did the Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11.

Today God is not dealing with Israel as His favorite people. God made a new creation (Epesians 2:14-18) known as "the Body of Christ." It consists of believing "set aside" Jews and Gentiles, on equal footing, and without distinction. Salvation/justification is not offered on the basis of doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH as Isreal was required, but it is NOW offered by one putting their FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ.

According to Ephesians 4:5 there is "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." It is not the water baptism that was required for entry in the priesthood of Israel, but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirt that baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ - DRY-CLEANED (1Cor.12:13) .

Hope this gives you a better idea as to where I am coming from.

There are some that say that Mark 16:16-18 are not in the original manuscripts. However, it is basically repeating those thing that Jesus told His disciples to do back in Matthew 10:8.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

justified · Oct 28, 2005

well they keep using it and interpreting it wrong when they do, so its hard to just say that.

That's because they use the old versions or they can't read their footnotes.

Schroeder · Oct 29, 2005

Dispy said:
It clear that we misunderstand each other, and also that we do not agree with each other.

I do believe the Mark 16:16 is speaking of water baptism. Also, John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus, "preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4).

Matthew 3:11 states (John speaking) "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire."

Water baptism continued all through the ministry of Jesus while He was upon the earth, and was still going on at Pentecost, and later. However, the Holy Spirit baptism, by Jesus, was added to those that repented and were water baptized at Pentecost. Jesus was the baptizer with the Holy Ghost to those water baptized repentants. That was in fulfillment of John's remarks in Matt.3:11.

Mark 16:16 was spoken by Jesus prior to His return to heaven. Water baptism was still to be practised, but it was prior to Pentecost. Jesus was not yet baptizing the water baptized repentants with the Holy Ghost.

Those believers at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-7) were baptized "unto John's baptism" (vs 3), an no doubt prior to Pentecost. Therefore, they would not have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as those at Pentecost did. The events of Acts 19 took place at least 15 years after Pentecost.

There are a few things one must keep in mind when we are studying the gospels. First of all, we should keep in mind what Jesus said about His ministry. He said in Matthew 15:24 "...I am not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He even commanded His disciples in 10:5 "...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of Samiaria enter ye not.

What did Jesus and His disciples preach? The gospel of the kingdom/the kingdom at hand (about to be established).

In Romans 15:8 Paul tells us "...that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (Israel) to confirm the promises made to the fathers."

What were some of those promises? Well back in Exodus 19:3-7 God told Moses to tell the children of Israel that if they would keep His commandments then they would become a holy nation, and a kingdom of priests.

In Exodus 30:17-21 we find that before one could become a priest, they had to undergo a ceremonial washing (baptism.)

So what was John the Baptist's mission as the forerunner of Jesus? He was to prepare the nation of Israel to be that holy nation and nation of priests, which would prepare the way for Jesus to establish His kingdom.

Well we know from studying the gospels that the Jews, as a nation rejected their King and His Kingdom.

Even after Pentecost, the believing water baptized repentances received the promised Holy Ghost. Peter, in Acts 3:19-21, told his listeners that if they, as a nation, would repent of the murder of Jesus, then He would return and restore all things. However, when we read further, Israel's leaders still rejected their King and His Kingdom, when they stoned Stephen in Acts 7, and therefore God set the nation of Israel aside, just as he did the Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11.

Today God is not dealing with Israel as His favorite people. God made a new creation (Epesians 2:14-18) known as "the Body of Christ." It consists of believing "set aside" Jews and Gentiles, on equal footing, and without distinction. Salvation/justification is not offered on the basis of doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH as Isreal was required, but it is NOW offered by one putting their FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ.

According to Ephesians 4:5 there is "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." It is not the water baptism that was required for entry in the priesthood of Israel, but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirt that baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ - DRY-CLEANED (1Cor.12:13) .

Hope this gives you a better idea as to where I am coming from.

There are some that say that Mark 16:16-18 are not in the original manuscripts. However, it is basically repeating those thing that Jesus told His disciples to do back in Matthew 10:8.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

we agree on some and disagree that Mark 16:16 is water. You havnt proved why my references to why it is the Spirit is wrong. John3:18 john 7:37-39 Mark 17. We agree on all but Mark 16:16 and that water baptism was commanded and to continue. John the Baptist said his purpose for comimngt o water baptize was to reveal Christ. so once that was done his purpose was finished, which included water baptism. and that Christ would continue which was of the Spirit. of course he could not speak of it because as John 7:37-39 says he had not yet been glorified and couldnt give the Spirit baptism untill then. And water does not give us the ability to do the things Mark 16:17 speaks of only the Spirit. so if they or we believe and are baptized(by the Spirit) we can do such things as verse 17 says. Doesnt mean all will but all could if God chose to have us to.

Dispy · Oct 30, 2005

Schroeder said:
we agree on some and disagree that Mark 16:16 is water. You havnt proved why my references to why it is the Spirit is wrong. John3:18 john 7:37-39 Mark 17. We agree on all but Mark 16:16 and that water baptism was commanded and to continue. John the Baptist said his purpose for comimngt o water baptize was to reveal Christ. so once that was done his purpose was finished, which included water baptism. and that Christ would continue which was of the Spirit. of course he could not speak of it because as John 7:37-39 says he had not yet been glorified and couldnt give the Spirit baptism untill then. And water does not give us the ability to do the things Mark 16:17 speaks of only the Spirit. so if they or we believe and are baptized(by the Spirit) we can do such things as verse 17 says. Doesnt mean all will but all could if God chose to have us to.

Your reference of John3:18 is about Jesus and Nicodemus and the new birth. In John 3:22 we still find John the baptizing with water (vss 22,23).

John 7:37-39 is the promise of the power of the Holy Spirit which didn't come until Pentecost. At Pentecost Peter preached "Repent and be baptized (by water) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." An repentant that was not water baptized didn't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

A believer in Mark 16:16 would be baptized and be saved. An unbeliever would still be lost wether he was baptized or not. But the believer that was baptized would be given the signs that would follow their water baptism, as mentioned in vss 17 and 18.

Water never had any saving ability, or given power to anyone. However, under the Law, deed/words were required to demonstrate FAITH. They had no saving power in themselves, but were required, just as water baptism was.

Jesus is no longer the baptizer of the Holy Spirit. It is now the work of the Holy Spirit to baptize the believer into the Body of Christ, the moment the believer places their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation.

I stand by what I have posted in the past.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Schroeder · Oct 31, 2005

Dispy said:
Your reference of John3:18 is about Jesus and Nicodemus and the new birth. In John 3:22 we still find John the baptizing with water (vss 22,23).

it says spirit gives birth to the Spirit not water gives birth to the Spirit.

John 7:37-39 is the promise of the power of the Holy Spirit which didn't come until Pentecost. At Pentecost Peter preached "Repent and be baptized (by water) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." An repentant that was not water baptized didn't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

Why does baptize here mean water doesnt say water. and in Acts 10 they did so that idea is wrong. In a lot of other passages it states that the Spirit is given when we believed, so that also shows it is without water. in acts 10:42 it says forgiveness of sins by belief and then they received the Spirit and Acts 15:8 speaks of this belief and Peter says in acts 11:17 this belief was the same as when they received it at pentacost where they were not water baptized to get it. Which Mark 16:16 also in verse17 is speaking of, the Apostles.

A believer in Mark 16:16 would be baptized and be saved. An unbeliever would still be lost wether he was baptized or not. But the believer that was baptized would be given the signs that would follow their water baptism, as mentioned in vss 17 and 18.

No that doesnt make sence. he would believe and be saved if he did not he would not be saved nor be baptized by the Spirit. when we are saved the way we live or our works show that we were baptized by the Spirit and received it to live in us to help us do the things God asks of us. Those in Acts 2:38 did not do those things though did they. doesnt mean they were not saved or did not receive the Spirit. these things were not needed to be given to show anything. we all have the ability if given to prove God is in us and we are truelly speaking of God.

Water never had any saving ability, or given power to anyone. However, under the Law, deed/words were required to demonstrate FAITH. They had no saving power in themselves, but were required, just as water baptism was.

But scripture says that it was there faith in believing God not there deeds. Read Heb 11:1-4 it doesnt say Faith is a act but believeing in what we do not see. And Christ said the Law was fullfilled in his one Act of obediance in rom 5. The only thing left was to believe in that. If it has no saving ability why do it. We are speaking of salvation not proving it.

Jesus is no longer the baptizer of the Holy Spirit. It is now the work of the Holy Spirit to baptize the believer into the Body of Christ, the moment the believer places their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation.

I stand by what I have posted in the past.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

He is because he is now in the Spirit. The trinity does it because they are all one in the same. Scripture says God is Spirit and it also says Christ is Spirit. And you just said above that the Water gives it. or at least if you interprete Mark 16 and Acts 2:38 they way you do it would infer that. And you just said that this Faith is shown by us being water baptized. So if we have to go through water to receive the Spirit then water does save, and should be given some attention as to why by the scriptures but it never is, so baptism must be in Spirit, because we both agree it has no power. And in us doing it to receive the Spirit makes us a part of Grace which is wrong as well.

Dispy · Nov 1, 2005

Dispy said:
Your reference of John3:18 is about Jesus and Nicodemus and the new birth. In John 3:22 we still find John the baptizing with water (vss 22,23).

Schroeder said:
it says spirit gives birth to the Spirit not water gives birth to the Spirit.

Couldn't find where it said that. PLEASE point it out to me.

Dispy said:
John 7:37-39 is the promise of the power of the Holy Spirit which didn't come until Pentecost. At Pentecost Peter preached "Repent and be baptized (by water) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." An repentant that was not water baptized didn't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

Shroeder said:
Why does baptize here mean water doesnt say water. and in Acts 10 they did so that idea is wrong. In a lot of other passages it states that the Spirit is given when we believed, so that also shows it is without water. in acts 10:42 it says forgiveness of sins by belief and then they received the Spirit and Acts 15:8 speaks of this belief and Peter says in acts 11:17 this belief was the same as when they received it at pentacost where they were not water baptized to get it. Which Mark 16:16 also in verse17 is speaking of, the Apostles.

Acts 10:47 says: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized? That indicates to me that water baptism was still being practised. True, the did receive the Holy Sprit prior to being baptized, but this was a change from the norm, as in Acts 2:38. That is why Peter and those of the circumcision were so astonished.

There is nothing in Acts 15:8 that says that they were not water baptized. 11:16 still says that they were water baptized.

With the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, God set the nation of Israel aside. In Acts 10 God showed Peter that the Gentile was no longer to be considered "unclean." That put the Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction.

In Genesis 11, God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel. In Acts 10, God put the Jews on the same level as the set aside Gentiles. Prior to that a Jew was not to go to a man from another country (cf. Acts 10:28). Cornelius, and his house, shows a change in the kingdom program.

Dispy said:
A believer in Mark 16:16 would be baptized and be saved. An unbeliever would still be lost wether he was baptized or not. But the believer that was baptized would be given the signs that would follow their water baptism, as mentioned in vss 17 and 18.

Shroeder said:
No that doesnt make sence. he would believe and be saved if he did not he would not be saved nor be baptized by the Spirit. when we are saved the way we live or our works show that we were baptized by the Spirit and received it to live in us to help us do the things God asks of us. Those in Acts 2:38 did not do those things though did they. doesnt mean they were not saved or did not receive the Spirit. these things were not needed to be given to show anything. we all have the ability if given to prove God is in us and we are truelly speaking of God.

The "so called" great commission was given to the disciples prior to Jesus return to heaven. At Pentecost Jesus was the baptizer WITH the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not in the baptizing business at that time. After the setting aside of the nation of Israel, the raising up of Saul/Paul, and the ushering in of this dispensation of Grace, Jesus was no longer in the business of baptizing with the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was the one who baptized the believer INTO the Body of Christ.

Dispy said:
Water never had any saving ability, or given power to anyone. However, under the Law, deed/words were required to demonstrate FAITH. They had no saving power in themselves, but were required, just as water baptism was.

Shroeder said:
But scripture says that it was there faith in believing God not there deeds. Read Heb 11:1-4 it doesnt say Faith is a act but believeing in what we do not see. And Christ said the Law was fullfilled in his one Act of obediance in rom 5. The only thing left was to believe in that. If it has no saving ability why do it. We are speaking of salvation not proving it.

When the Law was in effect, prior to Israel being set aside, justification/salvation was by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. Water baptism wias the vehicle by which the repant showed their FAITH. Deeds/works/water baptism had no saving value by themselvs.

With the ushering in of this dispensation of grace, deed/works/water baptism were no longer required to demonstrate FAITH.

Dispy said:
Jesus is no longer the baptizer of the Holy Spirit. It is now the work of the Holy Spirit to baptize the believer into the Body of Christ, the moment the believer places their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation.

I stand by what I have posted in the past.

Shroeder said:
He is because he is now in the Spirit. The trinity does it because they are all one in the same. Scripture says God is Spirit and it also says Christ is Spirit. And you just said above that the Water gives it. or at least if you interprete Mark 16 and Acts 2:38 they way you do it would infer that. And you just said that this Faith is shown by us being water baptized. So if we have to go through water to receive the Spirit then water does save, and should be given some attention as to why by the scriptures but it never is, so baptism must be in Spirit, because we both agree it has no power. And in us doing it to receive the Spirit makes us a part of Grace which is wrong as well.

Can't find it in my Bible where it says or implies that. Also, never says that water gives it. However I did say that water baptism was the means in which FAITH was demonstrated by the repentant. Never did say that water gives it, but is was a requirement for the repantant to be water baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:38.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Schroeder · Nov 4, 2005

Dispy said:
Dispy said:

Couldn't find where it said that. PLEASE point it out to me.

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John 3:6

Acts 10:47 says: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized? That indicates to me that water baptism was still being practised. True, the did receive the Holy Sprit prior to being baptized, but this was a change from the norm, as in Acts 2:38. That is why Peter and those of the circumcision were so astonished.

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probably,doesnt prove nothing. Cant prove that, sense God is the one doing it. They were astonished they spoke in tongues which proved they were saved as they were.

There is nothing in Acts 15:8 that says that they were not water baptized. 11:16 still says that they were water baptized.

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doesnt prove anything. it just a matter of fact.

With the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, God set the nation of Israel aside. In Acts 10 God showed Peter that the Gentile was no longer to be considered "unclean." That put the Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction

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Scripture doesnt say that does it. Godwas showing Peter and the jews there error in thinking thaty is it. how was Peter to teach the Truth when his thinking was wrong.

In Genesis 11, God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel. In Acts 10, God put the Jews on the same level as the set aside Gentiles. Prior to that a Jew was not to go to a man from another country (cf. Acts 10:28). Cornelius, and his house, shows a change in the kingdom program.

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Its not about kingdom programs its about Christ and salvation through him and not through the Law. Isreal waschosen by God to share the Truth but they failed there task now it is through his Son.

The "so called" great commission was given to the disciples prior to Jesus return to heaven. At Pentecost Jesus was the baptizer WITH the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not in the baptizing business at that time. After the setting aside of the nation of Israel, the raising up of Saul/Paul, and the ushering in of this dispensation of Grace, Jesus was no longer in the business of baptizing with the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was the one who baptized the believer INTO the Body of Christ.

Click to expand...

At what time. old testement time. Jesus is the SPirit he is God. its called the trinity. math28. the baptism here was the SPirit but it shows union into the Body of the trinity. they are all one correct. Church Body Trinity. at pentecost jesus was not there. his Spirit was.

When the Law was in effect, prior to Israel being set aside, justification/salvation was by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. Water baptism wias the vehicle by which the repant showed their FAITH. Deeds/works/water baptism had no saving value by themselvs.

With the ushering in of this dispensation of grace, deed/works/water baptism were no longer required to demonstrate FAITH.

Click to expand...

the old covenant was abolished at Christ ressuerection. that is why he said IT IS FINISHED. his Earthly physical job, to give his blood as the last sacrifice of the old covenant.

Can't find it in my Bible where it says or implies that. Also, never says that water gives it. However I did say that water baptism was the means in which FAITH was demonstrated by the repentant. Never did say that water gives it, but is was a requirement for the repantant to be water baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:38.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Click to expand...

Was not Peter only implied that, he was told or shown by God that the old way was not reguired in Acts 10-11, So it would imply to me that this method he sopoke of in Acts 2:38 was used but not the correct way. But i see were your coming from.the dispensationlist view. I am not totally against it though. So if it was meant to be water he was wrong in saying it and Acts 10-11 shows this to be true. which is why Acts is a history of the early church and not doctrine of the early Church.

Dispy · Nov 6, 2005

Shroeder said:
Was not Peter only implied that, he was told or shown by God that the old way was not reguired in Acts 10-11, So it would imply to me that this method he sopoke of in Acts 2:38 was used but not the correct way. But i see were your coming from.the dispensationlist view. I am not totally against it though. So if it was meant to be water he was wrong in saying it and Acts 10-11 shows this to be true. which is why Acts is a history of the early church and not doctrine of the early Church.

It is quite apparent from your above paragraph that you really have a good understanding of the book of the Acts.

The book starts out with Peter as the main character and still preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" to the Jews only, and the Law still in effect. The "so called" great commission was being carried out.

In Acts 7 we find the leaders of Isreal rejection the Holy Spirit with the stoning of Stephen. They had previously rejected God the Father when they refursed to be baptized of John, and allowed John to be killed. Also, they went about establishing their own righteousness (Rms:10:3).

After the stoning of Stephen we find that God raised up Saul/Paul to usher in the dispensation of grace (Acts 9). Then God showed Peter that the nation of Israel was set aside and that they were now on the same lever as the set aside Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

With the ushering in the the dispensation of grace, Paul becomes the main character and he preaches an entirely different gospel then the disciples of Jesus preached. They preached "the gospel of the kingdom," while Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God."

So you see, the book of the Acts is about the setting aside of Israel, and the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," under the Law, to ushering in the dispensation of grace through the Apostle Paul, and the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God," on the basis of Christ's shed blood, to all mankind, without the Law. The Chruch, the Body of Christ was formed by the setting aside of Israel, and the creation of "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:15.

Yes, in early Acts there was a growth of the Jewish Church, but that was not the Chruch, the Body of Christ, that we have today.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Schroeder · Nov 8, 2005

Dispy said:
It is quite apparent from your above paragraph that you really have a good understanding of the book of the Acts.

The book starts out with Peter as the main character and still preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" to the Jews only, and the Law still in effect. The "so called" great commission was being carried out.

In Acts 7 we find the leaders of Isreal rejection the Holy Spirit with the stoning of Stephen. They had previously rejected God the Father when they refursed to be baptized of John, and allowed John to be killed. Also, they went about establishing their own righteousness (Rms:10:3).

After the stoning of Stephen we find that God raised up Saul/Paul to usher in the dispensation of grace (Acts 9). Then God showed Peter that the nation of Israel was set aside and that they were now on the same lever as the set aside Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.

With the ushering in the the dispensation of grace, Paul becomes the main character and he preaches an entirely different gospel then the disciples of Jesus preached. They preached "the gospel of the kingdom," while Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God."

So you see, the book of the Acts is about the setting aside of Israel, and the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," under the Law, to ushering in the dispensation of grace through the Apostle Paul, and the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God," on the basis of Christ's shed blood, to all mankind, without the Law. The Chruch, the Body of Christ was formed by the setting aside of Israel, and the creation of "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:15.

Yes, in early Acts there was a growth of the Jewish Church, but that was not the Chruch, the Body of Christ, that we have today.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

The book of Acts starts out just prior to the return of Jesus to heaven where He gives His final instructions to His disciples. In 1:3 Jesus is still talking about the kingdom that is to be established here upon the earth.

In 1:8 Jesus is giving the order of the "so called" great commission. They were to start in Jerusalem, that is where the leaders of the Jewish Chruch were. Then to Judah and Samaria, because the 12 tribes of Israel had be be brought back together and be a witness to the world with "the gospel of the kingdom."

Then to the ends of the earth, to be a witness to the Gentiles which would fulfill the promise to Abram, back in Genesis 1:3, that his seed would be a blessing to all the families (nations) of the earth.

We then come to Pentecost where they were endued with the power of the Holy Ghost, as a witness to the world, but to the Jews first.

the idea is then whether Christ was speaking of baptism of water or Spirit. i contend spirit because that is the Proper method of receiving salvation. he has no reason to speak of water baptism if has no pering on your salvation or does nothing for you . matt. 28 and mark 16 both do not speak of water. why would Christ do that. He only spoke of salvation through him he never spoke of any other way ever. he said many times that the he was the way for both jew and gentile. it would just start with the jews then to the gentiles. you would start a ministry in the center of where it began would you not. you would not go out of town and start outside in.

Dispy · Nov 8, 2005

Shroeder:
I will agree with you that water baptism is no longer required. We are baptized by the Holy Spirit the moment we put our faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for our salvation. However, Under the dispensation of the Law, prior to the setting aside of Israel, water baptism was required for the remission of sins and to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Schroeder · Nov 9, 2005

Dispy said:
Shroeder:
I will agree with you that water baptism is no longer required. We are baptized by the Holy Spirit the moment we put our faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for our salvation. However, Under the dispensation of the Law, prior to the setting aside of Israel, water baptism was required for the remission of sins and to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

so Christ spoke only to that dispensation of Law in Matt. and Mark. WHY? and your thinking is all based on ONE passage. that cant be good reasoning. Christ never ever spoke loke that ever on his ministry he spoke alike to both jew and gentile, did he not. The apostles NEVER spoke like that in all the letters did they.

Mark 16:16 misinterpreted

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