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Trento

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The saints in heaven are worshiping God, not listening to our prayers. Only God can do that.
Don't you have something better to do than insult me? Seriously!

Scripture says we were "all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). Christians are one body which is not divided by death or anything else (Rom 8:38-39). Christians in heaven are still members of that body of Christ?

Revelation opens with this verse...
1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...
God used an angel, and did not do it himself? The angel didn't say "hey, don't talk to me, talk to God alone." I suggest that God uses servants. They are servants who know a lot more than us humans on earth. This takes nothing away from God. It simply reflects the overabundance of his grace. I suggest that the communication John had with the angel was what we may call "prayer."
The passage supports the catholic viewpoint on the role of heavenly servants rather than the contrary position held by some non-denominationalists.
When one is obliged to trust his own knowledge and wisdom above the unanimous testimony of the Church from the beginning which includes the united Catholic and Orthodox witness to this ,they are standing with quicksand under the feet.
. In other words, the fatuous attempt to interpret Holy Scripture against the united witness of Christian anitquity and the constant teaching of the ancient Churches is shown to be a deformation of the Gospel.The Church is a witness in countless instantaneous healing's while asking God for a saints intercession even to the regeneration of a limb.
 
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Hentenza

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Scripture says we were "all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). Christians are one body which is not divided by death or anything else (Rom 8:38-39). Christians in heaven are still members of that body of Christ?

Romans 8:38-39 refers to not being separated from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ. There is no reference to us being aware in heaven to those left on earth.

Revelation opens with this verse...
1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...
God used an angel, and did not do it himself? The angel didn't say "hey, don't talk to me, talk to God alone." I suggest that God uses servants. They are servants who know a lot more than us humans on earth. This takes nothing away from God. It simply reflects the overabundance of his grace. I suggest that the communication John had with the angel was what we may call "prayer."
The passage supports the catholic viewpoint on the role of heavenly servants rather than the contrary position held by some non-denominationalists.

You can suggest that the communication is "prayer" but it would have to be inferred. God can use whomever He wants to carry His will and message. This passage does not prove the RCC's viewpoint. The passage merely describes God's use of one of his angels to speak to John.



When one is obliged to trust his own knowledge and wisdom above the unanimous testimony of the Church from the beginning which includes the united Catholic and Orthodox witness to this ,they are standing with quicksand under the feet.
. In other words, the fatuous attempt to interpret Holy Scripture against the united witness of Christian anitquity and the constant teaching of the ancient Churches is shown to be a deformation of the Gospel.The Church is a witness in countless instantaneous healing's while asking God for a saints intercession even to the regeneration of a limb.

Typical RCC rhetoric. The RCC denomination is not infallible because errant men run it. It can and has made mistakes like anyone else.
 
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Trento

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Well, lets think about that for a minute. When the NT was being written the apostles were still alive to refute any false teachings. If you notice most of the epistles include warnings to different churches for straying away from the apostles teachings. Once the apostles died, the NT was wriiten. That is called scripture.

God Bless

Ireneaeus, Against Heresies:AD 180
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the Apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and seal and all that is in them...

As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same.

...

Nor will any of the rulers of the Churches, whatever his power of eloquence, teach otherwise, for no one is above the teacher; nor will he who is weak in speaking detract from the tradition. for the faith is one and the same, and cannot be amplified by one who is able to say much about it, nor can it be diminished by one who can say but little.

...

Creation itself revals Him that created it; and the work made is itself suggestive of Him that made it; and the world manifests Him that arranged it. Every Church throughout the whole world has received this tradition from the Apostles.

...

It is possible, then, for everyone in every Church, who may wish to know the truth, to cotemplate the tradition of the Apostles which has been made known thoughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times: men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about. For if the Apostles had known hidden mysteries which they taught to the elite secretly and apart from the rest, they would have handed them down especially to the ones to whom they were committing the self-same Churches. For surely they wished all those and their successors to be perfect and without reproach, to whim they handed on their authority.

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or though blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition.

...Clement was chosen to the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes...In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us.

...[Polycarp] always taught those things which he had learned from the Apostles, and which the Church had handed down, and which are true. To these things all the Churches in Asia bear witness, as do also the successors to Polcarp even to the present time.

...When, therefore, we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek among others the truth which is easily obtained by the Church. For the Apostles, like a rich man in a band, deposited with her most copiously everything which pertains to the truth; and everyone whosoever wishes draws from her the drink of life. For she is the entrance to life, while all the rest are thieves and robbers. That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them, while cherishing with utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. What then? If there should be a dispute over some kind of question, ought we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches in which the Apostles were familiar, and draw from them what is clear and certain in regard to that question? [NB: NOTE NO MENTION OF SCRIPTURE HERE, BUT THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH]? What if the Apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the Churches?

...

The true gnosis is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which successions the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere; and the very complete tradition of the Scriptures, which have come down to us by being guarded against falsification, and which are received without addition or deletion; and reading without falsification, and a legitimate and diligent exposition according to the Scriptures, without danger and without blasphemy; and the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious that knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and more honored than all the other charismatic gifts."

It is interesting to note that Irenaeus wrote at a time when the canon was under significant discussion due to the gnostics. He is among the first to offer the fourfold Gospel as authoritative, eschewing the Gospel of Thomas and other gnostic works (see Elaine Pagels, "The Gnostic Gospels" and "Beyond Belief"). He does so because theseGospels correspond with what the Apostles handed to their successors, who were the guardians for the Church of the full deposit of faith.

Irenaeus speaks of "one heart," one voice, etc. Scripture did not come about outside of the process of the Church's compiling it and preserving it from corruption, and it is because the Church did so that the NT as we know it came about. Scripture was the first fruit of the Apostolic Tradition manifest in the Church. Irenaeus sees a unity in the Church, not an amalgamation of local independent communities, the ties of which were the Bishops who succeeded the Apostles and brought forward their teachings, some of which were written down.

Questions that arose were to be referred to the Ancient Churches , not to the writings.

The Church, then, not just Scripture, not just oral Tradition, but the Church, is the guardian of the fullness of what Christ revealed to the Apostles.
 
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Trento

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Romans 8:38-39 refers to not being separated from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ. There is no reference to us being aware in heaven to those left on earth.



You can suggest that the communication is "prayer" but it would have to be inferred. God can use whomever He wants to carry His will and message. This passage does not prove the RCC's viewpoint. The passage merely describes God's use of one of his angels to speak to John.





Typical RCC rhetoric. The RCC denomination is not infallible because errant men run it. It can and has made mistakes like anyone else.

So? Is it not Scriptural that Jesus Christ said this would happen?


"Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE
MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 18:7

And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1

These are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Did he say the Church is the source, or the cause of the scandals? No, He said a man (or woman, to be politically correct for the time of the Gospel writing) is.

He also said "...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18

The Father has given the Church the Holy Spirit which is the spitit of truth to stay with the Church forever. I bllieve we are still in that time period.

Christ foresaw that there would be wheat and weeds in his Church, so the fact that it is so should not be surprising to anyone. Sin, even at high levels in the Church, should not shock anyone. One would be foolish to expect otherwise in any human institution .People will fail, but the Church will endure—not because Catholics are better than anyone else but because it is God’s will that "the powers of death shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

One always will find heterodoxy (as internally or externally defined) among the masses, or the people in the pews, in every Christian group. Jesus assumed this would be the case, and spoke of it frequently (cf. Matt. 3:12; 13:24–30, 47–50; 22:1–14; 24:1–13; 25:14–30). Paul concurs (cf. Acts 20:30; 2 Tim. 2:15–20). As usual, the biblical writers anticipate what would be a stumbling block throughout Church history.
Even Judas was regarded as a true apostle (cf. Matt. 10:4; Mark 3:19; John 6:70–71; Acts 1:17). Even though dissent and corruption are troubling and scandalous of their own accord, the attainment of moral purity is irrelevant with regard to the determination of which Church is divinely established by Christ.

In Paul’s mind, the Corinthian church did not cease to be part of the true universal Church even when he was rebuking its members for exceedingly serious and widespread sins (cf. 1 Cor. 1:2; 3:1–4; 5:1–2; 6:1–8; 11:17–22; 2 Cor. 1:1; 11:2–4). Nor was it said that there was no institutional Church because of the early controversy over the Judaizers spoken of in the book of Acts (cf. Acts 15:5).
The biblical support for the concept of a Church containing sinners—yet remaining a true Church—is abundant. The parable of the wheat and weeds (cf. Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43) reads as if the weeds are at least equal in number to the wheat. A moment’s reflection on the proliferation of uncontrolled weeds in any lawn will bring this point home. This is also apparent in the similar pronouncements about wheat and chaff (cf. Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17). Sin does not rule out the possibility of a true Church. And no one needs to drive a wedge between Jesus and his ordained structure of the Church. The truth is to be believed even if one person in the world believes it.
 
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Hentenza

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Ireneaeus, Against Heresies:AD 180
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the Apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and seal and all that is in them...

As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same.

...

Nor will any of the rulers of the Churches, whatever his power of eloquence, teach otherwise, for no one is above the teacher; nor will he who is weak in speaking detract from the tradition. for the faith is one and the same, and cannot be amplified by one who is able to say much about it, nor can it be diminished by one who can say but little.

...

Creation itself revals Him that created it; and the work made is itself suggestive of Him that made it; and the world manifests Him that arranged it. Every Church throughout the whole world has received this tradition from the Apostles.

...

It is possible, then, for everyone in every Church, who may wish to know the truth, to cotemplate the tradition of the Apostles which has been made known thoughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times: men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about. For if the Apostles had known hidden mysteries which they taught to the elite secretly and apart from the rest, they would have handed them down especially to the ones to whom they were committing the self-same Churches. For surely they wished all those and their successors to be perfect and without reproach, to whim they handed on their authority.

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or though blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition.

...Clement was chosen to the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes...In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us.

...[Polycarp] always taught those things which he had learned from the Apostles, and which the Church had handed down, and which are true. To these things all the Churches in Asia bear witness, as do also the successors to Polcarp even to the present time.

...When, therefore, we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek among others the truth which is easily obtained by the Church. For the Apostles, like a rich man in a band, deposited with her most copiously everything which pertains to the truth; and everyone whosoever wishes draws from her the drink of life. For she is the entrance to life, while all the rest are thieves and robbers. That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them, while cherishing with utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. What then? If there should be a dispute over some kind of question, ought we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches in which the Apostles were familiar, and draw from them what is clear and certain in regard to that question? [NB: NOTE NO MENTION OF SCRIPTURE HERE, BUT THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH]? What if the Apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the Churches?

...

The true gnosis is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which successions the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere; and the very complete tradition of the Scriptures, which have come down to us by being guarded against falsification, and which are received without addition or deletion; and reading without falsification, and a legitimate and diligent exposition according to the Scriptures, without danger and without blasphemy; and the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious that knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and more honored than all the other charismatic gifts."

It is interesting to note that Irenaeus wrote at a time when the canon was under significant discussion due to the gnostics. He is among the first to offer the fourfold Gospel as authoritative, eschewing the Gospel of Thomas and other gnostic works (see Elaine Pagels, "The Gnostic Gospels" and "Beyond Belief"). He does so because theseGospels correspond with what the Apostles handed to their successors, who were the guardians for the Church of the full deposit of faith.

Irenaeus speaks of "one heart," one voice, etc. Scripture did not come about outside of the process of the Church's compiling it and preserving it from corruption, and it is because the Church did so that the NT as we know it came about. Scripture was the first fruit of the Apostolic Tradition manifest in the Church. Irenaeus sees a unity in the Church, not an amalgamation of local independent communities, the ties of which were the Bishops who succeeded the Apostles and brought forward their teachings, some of which were written down.

Questions that arose were to be referred to the Ancient Churches , not to the writings.

The Church, then, not just Scripture, not just oral Tradition, but the Church, is the guardian of the fullness of what Christ revealed to the Apostles.

The early apostolic church did a fantastic job guarding the scriptures through all the christian prosecusion years. They did this because of what the scriptures represent.
The church is not God, is a congregation of believers. For the RCC to consider itself the apostolic, original church is arrogant considering that the church described in the epistles bears very little resemblamnce to the RCC. The early church was the "universal" apostolic church not the RCC.
 
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Trento

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Romans 8:38-39 refers to not being separated from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ. There is no reference to us being aware in heaven to those left on earth.



You can suggest that the communication is "prayer" but it would have to be inferred. God can use whomever He wants to carry His will and message. This passage does not prove the RCC's viewpoint. The passage merely describes God's use of one of his angels to speak to John.





Typical RCC rhetoric. The RCC denomination is not infallible because errant men run it. It can and has made mistakes like anyone else.

The early apostolic church did a fantastic job guarding the scriptures through all the christian prosecusion years. They did this because of what the scriptures represent.
The church is not God, is a congregation of believers. For the RCC to consider itself the apostolic, original church is arrogant considering that the church described in the epistles bears very little resemblamnce to the RCC. The early church was the "universal" apostolic church not the RCC.


He also said "...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18

The Father has given the Church the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of truth to stay with the Church forever. I bllieve we are still in that time period . Do you think Christ lied?
 
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simonthezealot

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Imagine if there was a protestant Church and all in agreement, how powerful it could advance the gospel. Yet it is way splintered. Why is that?
How many splinters are to many? 2, 4, 10 How many different orthodox and catholic churches are their dozens for certain. Is this a numbers game I think not!
 
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simonthezealot

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where does the Bible say that God is the only one in Heaven that is aware of what is going on on earth?
Eph 3 20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

It says it about HIM and no one else.
 
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Trento

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How many splinters are to many? 2, 4, 10 How many different orthodox and catholic churches are their dozens for certain. Is this a numbers game I think
not!

Nice Strawman you found.

102104strawmanclimbing.JPG
 
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ScottBot

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How many splinters are to many? 2, 4, 10 How many different orthodox and catholic churches are their dozens for certain. Is this a numbers game I think not!
There is only one Catholic Church.
 
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Hentenza

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So? Is it not Scriptural that Jesus Christ said this would happen?


"Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE
MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 18:7

And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1

These are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Did he say the Church is the source, or the cause of the scandals? No, He said a man (or woman, to be politically correct for the time of the Gospel writing) is.

He also said "...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18

The Father has given the Church the Holy Spirit which is the spitit of truth to stay with the Church forever. I bllieve we are still in that time period.

Christ foresaw that there would be wheat and weeds in his Church, so the fact that it is so should not be surprising to anyone. Sin, even at high levels in the Church, should not shock anyone. One would be foolish to expect otherwise in any human institution .People will fail, but the Church will endure—not because Catholics are better than anyone else but because it is God’s will that "the powers of death shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

One always will find heterodoxy (as internally or externally defined) among the masses, or the people in the pews, in every Christian group. Jesus assumed this would be the case, and spoke of it frequently (cf. Matt. 3:12; 13:24–30, 47–50; 22:1–14; 24:1–13; 25:14–30). Paul concurs (cf. Acts 20:30; 2 Tim. 2:15–20). As usual, the biblical writers anticipate what would be a stumbling block throughout Church history.
Even Judas was regarded as a true apostle (cf. Matt. 10:4; Mark 3:19; John 6:70–71; Acts 1:17). Even though dissent and corruption are troubling and scandalous of their own accord, the attainment of moral purity is irrelevant with regard to the determination of which Church is divinely established by Christ.

In Paul’s mind, the Corinthian church did not cease to be part of the true universal Church even when he was rebuking its members for exceedingly serious and widespread sins (cf. 1 Cor. 1:2; 3:1–4; 5:1–2; 6:1–8; 11:17–22; 2 Cor. 1:1; 11:2–4). Nor was it said that there was no institutional Church because of the early controversy over the Judaizers spoken of in the book of Acts (cf. Acts 15:5).
The biblical support for the concept of a Church containing sinners—yet remaining a true Church—is abundant. The parable of the wheat and weeds (cf. Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43) reads as if the weeds are at least equal in number to the wheat. A moment’s reflection on the proliferation of uncontrolled weeds in any lawn will bring this point home. This is also apparent in the similar pronouncements about wheat and chaff (cf. Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17). Sin does not rule out the possibility of a true Church. And no one needs to drive a wedge between Jesus and his ordained structure of the Church. The truth is to be believed even if one person in the world believes it.

And see, that is exactly where problem comes. The RCC is NOT the original universal and apostolic church. The RCC has created plenty of scandals through its history and created "the" wedge that divided the church. It began in 1054, continued in the 1500's, and is present to this day.

Consider the following:

Ephesians 1:22-23
22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

This passage is clear that the body of Christ is composed of ALL believers from the time of pentecost until the end of times.

1 Cor 12:13
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


It is clear from this verse that the Holy Spirit is a gift to his body, which is all who beleive, NOT "The" church exclusively. The true church is not any perticular building or denomination, but those who beleive in Christ.
 
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Hentenza

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Hentenza

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Anyone Else Sick Of The Silly Strawmen?
Man Thats Gotten Old....

Amazing that the strawman claim is always directed at other than RCC or EO.:scratch: Have you noticed this pattern.:doh:
 
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Trento

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And see, that is exactly where problem comes. The RCC is NOT the original universal and apostolic church. The RCC has created plenty of scandals through its history and created "the" wedge that divided the church. It began in 1054, continued in the 1500's, and is present to this day.

Consider the following:

Ephesians 1:22-23
22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

This passage is clear that the body of Christ is composed of ALL believers from the time of pentecost until the end of times.

1 Cor 12:13
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


It is clear from this verse that the Holy Spirit is a gift to his body, which is all who beleive, NOT "The" church exclusively. The true church is not any perticular building or denomination, but those who beleive in Christ.

So all who believe include
David Koresh, Joseph Smith of the Mormons, UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISM Jehovah's Witnesses ,Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity ECT.




"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.

Luther remarked several years later:

"We concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"
Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS,
St. Louis, Mo., Concordia, 1961, 304


“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”


Martin Luther to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519
more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses
quoted in The Facts about Luther, 356
 
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So all who believe include
David Koresh, Joseph Smith of the Mormons, UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISM Jehovah's Witnesses ,Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity ECT.




"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.

Luther remarked several years later:

"We concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"
Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS,
St. Louis, Mo., Concordia, 1961, 304


“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”


Martin Luther to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519
more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses
quoted in The Facts about Luther, 356

You really need to stop misinterpreting Luther. Is getting old. :yawn:
As to the "believers" that you listed at the beginning, I am sure that God will effect His just punishment.:amen:
 
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