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Show me where the saints are offering up prayers in heaven please. Show me the scriptures you speak of here.Rebecca was heard weeping when the innocent newborns were killed by Herod. How did she know that happened? All of Heaven rejoices when one soul repents. How do they know? How do the saints in Heaven offer up our prayers to God as in Revelation, and how do they martyrs know they have not yet been revenged, as in Revelation?
I respect my brothers and sisters in the Lord. I do not bow down to them.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 5: 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
...now this can mean one of two things (or both):
1. the saints in Heaven are offering up their prayers for us -- since they are already in Heaven I doubt they need to be praying for themselves.
2. those in Heaven are presenting OUR prayers (us being the saints) to God .... either way those in Heaven are aware of our needs on earth.
Here we see the seals being broken. Under the 5th seal we see an altar. After they ask this question the Lord gives them a white robe. He tells them they will REST a little longer. For the time has not come yet. For when the time comes and vengance of the Lord is done we all will reign with Him for all eternity. In the mean time they are resting not praying not working but resting. Do you see praying there? Do you see that they know anything that is actually happening? I see them wanting to know how long before we all reign with our King.Rev 6:1 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
Rev 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
Rev 6:5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."
Rev 6:7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Rev 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
Rev 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
Rev 6:14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
We see here that what was offered Was golden bowls full of incense. These are the prayers of His people. Our our included in these. For our prayers to Him are like incense. It seems to me as if all our prayers He keeps in the golden bottles because they mean so much to Him. We do not see people praying there either.Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Man over God? Again, that is your faulty understanding of Saints hearing our Prayers. Nobody is above God here. You were for some reason trying to lead us to believe bowing was wrong. I showed you it wasn't. Now your trying to move on to another tactic.UH HUH but when it comes to Man over God I must say that is quite a different story.
Your missing the point. The Saints in Heaven belong to the same Church as those on Earth. They are not going to just suddenly stop praying for others because they are in Heaven. You admitted you pray for people. Do you tell others how wrong it is to ask you to pray for them. They don't need your prayers right. They can just go straight to God. He can handle it all by Himself. But we know Jesus wants us to Pray and likewise wants His Saints and Angels to also intercede on our behalf but ONLY by His Power alone.So these graces you talk of? Where do we see this? Where do you see God gave humans power to hear prayers? God is all sufficient. He can hear and answer prayer all by His self.
Sorry, but you asked for proof and you got it. Those were Prayers of the the Saints being personally brought to God. As in we pray to them and they intercede by bringing them to God for us.We see here that what was offered Was golden bowls full of incense. These are the prayers of His people. Our our included in these. For our prayers to Him are like incense. It seems to me as if all our prayers He keeps in the golden bottles because they mean so much to Him. We do not see people praying there either.
That verse does NOT mean they do not know what is happening. Remember this verse:Here we see the seals being broken. Under the 5th seal we see an altar. After they ask this question the Lord gives them a white robe. He tells them they will REST a little longer. For the time has not come yet. For when the time comes and vengance of the Lord is done we all will reign with Him for all eternity. In the mean time they are resting not praying not working but resting. Do you see praying there? Do you see that they know anything that is actually happening? I see them wanting to know how long before we all reign with our King.
the elders in Heaven are presenting the prayers to God ... so yes, they know of our prayers and/or are praying for us.
That was not proof my friend. It was a poor stab at scripture to try and proove your point. They were not praying. Lets look at it a little more.Man over God? Again, that is your faulty understanding of Saints hearing our Prayers. Nobody is above God here. You were for some reason trying to lead us to believe bowing was wrong. I showed you it wasn't. Now your trying to move on to another tactic.
Your missing the point. The Saints in Heaven belong to the same Church as those on Earth. They are not going to just suddenly stop praying for others because they are in Heaven. You admitted you pray for people. Do you tell others how wrong it is to ask you to pray for them. They don't need your prayers right. They can just go straight to God. He can handle it all by Himself. But we know Jesus wants us to Pray and likewise wants His Saints and Angels to also intercede on our behalf but ONLY by His Power alone.
Sorry, but you asked for proof and you got it. Those were Prayers of the the Saints being personally brought to God. As in we pray to them and they intercede by bringing them to God for us.
That verse does NOT mean they do not know what is happening. Remember this verse:
Mark 13:32 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
It seems they are not suppose to know when this time is to come only. Has nothing to do with them not knowing what is going on in earth.
Not just God knows what's going on in Heaven.
Luke 15:10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance
Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
Rev 5:4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
Rev 5:5 and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
I-I-I need to sit down lay down now. You really blew my socks off with all that Scripture with the bold red, blue and purple lettering. I'm dumbfounded.That was not proof my friend. It was a poor stab at scripture to try and proove your point. They were not praying. Lets look at it a little more.
Are the omniscient? How do you even know they can hear your prayers?
The thing jckstraw is that if one is too use to the fact of there not being Saints praying for us by learning it from preachers and so forth, then verses like that, "just has to mean something else" to them and so will likely make it be something else. You and I have the same Tradition in this case to back us up.please see the Scripture i posted -- the verse in Revelation where saints in Heaven are presenting prayers to God.
This is why I look to scripture and not tradition for scripture speaks for itself. We see when these saints are under the alter they are asking the Lord how much longer. They are not petitioning the Lord for us here on earth. We also see that it was an incense offering to the Lord that was offered and the incense were the prayers of the saints. We are all saints. How many prayers of the saints go up in an hour To the mighty God my Father?The thing jckstraw is that if one is too use to the fact of there not being Saints praying for us by learning it from preachers and so forth, then verses like that, "just has to mean something else" to them and so will likely make it be something else. You and I have the same Tradition in this case to back us up.
We also see that it was an incense offering to the Lord that was offered and the incense were the prayers of the saints. We are all saints. How many prayers of the saints go up in an hour To the mighty God my Father?
They are jars filled with our prayers friend. Not the people hearing us and taking our prayer to God . For God hears the prayers of His people. He is not deaf.exactly -- those in Heaven are presenting our prayers to God -- they know what our prayers are.
They are jars filled with our prayers friend. Not the people hearing us and taking our prayer to God .
Read again.please read the passage -- the elders are presenting our prayers to God.
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
isnt that exactly what i said? the elders have our prayers .... im not seeing where the confusion is.
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