Mariolatry?

GentleGospeller · Aug 4, 2024

dzheremi said:
St. Luke worshipped the Theotokos by making an icon of her? What?

Yeah ... no.

GentleGospeller · Aug 4, 2024

George95 said:
Anyways, as we were discussing, the veneration of the Mother of God ...

"... the Most August Virgin Mary ... this Divine Mother ... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God, so that the Church even addresses to her the words with which we pray to God: "Have mercy on sinners." ... the heavenly choirs, "above whom the Holy Mother of God is exalted." ...” [LEO XIII - AUGUSTISSIMAE VIRGINIS MARIAE; ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII; ON THE CONFRATERNITY OF THE HOLY ROSARY] - Augustissimae Virginis Mariae (September 12, 1897) | LEO XIII & On the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary - Papal Encyclicals

Mary-worshippers

GentleGospeller · Aug 4, 2024

Mary, according to scripture is dead, buried, and awaiting her resurrection, like most others.

Who then do those of Catholicism pray to? Who do they think they are listening to through the mind-deadening medium of mummery?

ON THE ROSARY; MAGNAE DEI MATRIS; Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1892. - Magnae Dei Matris - Papal Encyclicals

“... as though they were listening to the very voice of the Blessed Mother explaining the mysteries and conversing with them at length ...”

Not Mary, or even the mystery of the Everlasting Gospel, but they instead are listening to the voice of another messenger, transforming themselves into the messenger of light (an apparition, claiming to be a familiar spirit) and the mystery of iniquity, the MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT:

2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The fallen angel does not care whether he appears as male or female to mankind, so long as he perpetuates the lie told in the garden of Eden on earth.

GentleGospeller · Aug 4, 2024

“Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Ash Wednesday] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ash Wednesday

They do not even adhere to their own confused theology, said every Ash Wednesday.

Notice it speaks of the "man" (the soul, the living being), not the body only. It does not say Remember that your body is dust. It clearly says, "man that thou (the person, being themselves) are dust" and "return" to "dust (not anywhere else)."

GentleGospeller · Aug 4, 2024

They deny even Peter's (and even Pauls', later) own words, whom they (Catholicism) calls their first 'pope', under their 'infallibility' of the Holy Ghost Himself at Pentecost:

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Go ahead. Ask any who practice Catholicism, "Where is King David, right now?" And they don't know. The same goes for Mary. They have to rely upon sheer "assumptive" imagination, guesses and vain traditions of which they themselves do not know the origins of, or able to confirm by anything but their own say so.

Col_2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

dzheremi · Aug 4, 2024

That's a great set of Roman Catholic encyclicals you've chosen to post for no reason, @GentleGospeller, but none of that changes the fact that the person you're directing them towards, George95, is Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. These two churches have not been in communion with one another for nearly a millennia by now (since the so-called 'Great Schism', conventionally dated to 1054), so obviously these encyclicals from the 1890s or the articles of 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia have no bearing on anything that Eastern Orthodox do or believe.

It would be very helpful if the people in this thread (and indeed across all of CF, but we might as well start here) who insist on lecturing those in ancient established communions about how supposedly awful their beliefs and practices are would take the less-than-five-seconds it would take to learn what those beliefs and practices are, or in this case, what they aren't. It takes virtually no time or effort to learn that the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics are two separate communions, and have been so for a very, very long time.

Guojing · Aug 4, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Additionally, your denomination asserts that Mary had multiple children, was a sinner, and should not be venerated as she is no different from any other believer." Such a statement might be perceived by a Protestant as an anti-Protestant exaggeration.

Wait, Catholics do not believe that the author of the book of James, the same James in Acts 15, was the half brother of Jesus, as in he is Mary's child as well (Galatians 1:18-19)?

How do they rationalize that?

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 5, 2024

Guojing said:
Wait, Catholics do not believe that the author of the book of James, the same James in Acts 15, was the half brother of Jesus, as in he is Mary's child as well (Galatians 1:18-19)?

How do they rationalize that?

Simply put, James is not referred to as Mary's son, nor is Mary acknowledged as his mother.

Guojing · Aug 5, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Simply put, James is not referred to as Mary's son, nor is Mary acknowledged as his mother.

So when Paul said he met James, the Lord's brother, Galatians 1:19, that James is not really his natural brother, but Catholics believe he is some kind of "spiritual brother"?

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 5, 2024

Guojing said:
So when Paul said he met James, the Lord's brother, Galatians 1:19, that James is not really his natural brother, but Catholics believe he is some kind of "spiritual brother"?

You are my brother, yet not my mother's son.

The Liturgist · Aug 5, 2024

Guojing said:
Wait, Catholics do not believe that the author of the book of James, the same James in Acts 15, was the half brother of Jesus, as in he is Mary's child as well (Galatians 1:18-19)?

How do they rationalize that?

All traditional Christians including the Eastern Orthodox, Assyrians, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and the great Protestant reformers Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer, John Calvin, and John Wesley, among others, as well as tradjtional High Church Anglicans and traditional Evangelical Catholic Lutherans believe in the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos and that St. Joseph was a widower, and the brethren of our Lord such as St. James the Just consisted of his stepbrothers by St. Joseph and his first wife, and also his first cousins, which is consistent with how the word “brethren” was used at the time.

That the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of St. Mary was also upheld by even the major Protestant reformers like Martin Luther and even John Calvin is historically interesting, as is the fact that we have no record of any persistent group disagreeing with it until the it began to be rejected by some Anabaptists in the late 16th century.

Guojing · Aug 5, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
You are my brother, yet not my mother's son.

I don't understand what you are saying. According to Catholics, what did Paul meant in Galatians 1:19 regarding James?

The Liturgist · Aug 5, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
You are my brother, yet not my mother's son.

Exactly. As we say in America, you’re my brother by another mother.

Guojing · Aug 5, 2024

The Liturgist said:
All traditional Christians including the Eastern Orthodox, Assyrians, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and the great Protestant reformers Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer, John Calvin, and John Wesley, among others, as well as tradjtional High Church Anglicans and traditional Evangelical Catholic Lutherans believe in the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos and that St. Joseph was a widower, and the brethren of our Lord such as St. James the Just consisted of his stepbrothers by St. Joseph and his first wife, and also his first cousins, which is consistent with how the word “brethren” was used at the time.

That the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of St. Mary was also upheld by even the major Protestant reformers like Martin Luther and even John Calvin is historically interesting, as is the fact that we have no record of any persistent group disagreeing with it until the it began to be rejected by some Anabaptists in the late 16th century.

So what is your view regarding Paul's statement in Galatians 1:19 about James, the Lord's brother?

The Liturgist · Aug 5, 2024

Guojing said:
So what is your view regarding Paul's statement in Galatians 1:19 about James, the Lord's brother?

He is referring to the fact that St. James is the stepbrother of our Lord, the son of St. Joseph his human guardian and St. Joseph’s first wife, who had died prior to his marriage to the Theotokos.

Guojing · Aug 5, 2024

The Liturgist said:
He is referring to the fact that St. James is the stepbrother of our Lord, the son of St. Joseph his human guardian and St. Joseph’s first wife, who had died prior to his marriage to the Theotokos.

So Catholics believed that Mary was Joseph's 2nd wife? I suppose there is no biblical scripture for that?

The Liturgist · Aug 5, 2024

Guojing said:
So you believed Joseph later on has another wife, other than Mary, and that James was from his second wife?

Absolutely not. St. Joseph was a widower and relatively old when he married the Theotokos. This is why we do not encounter him in those portions of the New Testament after Jesus Christ, having attained his majority, began his ministry, because by then only the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and not his Stepfather, was still alive.

And note, these are not my beliefs but the prevailing beliefs among a plurality or majority of all Christians, even today, since Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism and Lutheranism are the largest, second largest, third largest and fourth largest denominations, Calvinists, whose founder John Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity are the fifth largest, and the Oriental Orthodox are around the eighth largest, with the Methodist and Wesleyan churches being similar in size, and John Wesley also having believed in the Perpetual Virginity.

The rejection of the Perpetual Virginity of St. Mary was an unusual and extremely radical doctrine until at least the 19th century, and only in the 20th century did it become as popular as it is today due to the growing influence of anti-Catholic extremism among Evangelicals, Pentecostals and Fundamentalist Calvinists.

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 5, 2024

Guojing said:
I don't understand what you are saying. According to Catholics, what did Paul meant in Galatians 1:19 regarding James?

Saint Paul means that James was brought up by Jesus' parents.

Guojing · Aug 5, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Absolutely not. St. Joseph was a widower and relatively old when he married the Theotokos. This is why we do not encounter him in those portions of the New Testament after Jesus Christ, having attained his majority, began his ministry, because by then only the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and not his Stepfather, was still alive.

And note, these are not my beliefs but the prevailing beliefs among a plurality or majority of all Christians, even today, since Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism and Lutheranism are the largest, second largest, third largest and fourth largest denominations, Calvinists, whose founder John Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity are the fifth largest, and the Oriental Orthodox are around the eighth largest, with the Methodist and Wesleyan churches being similar in size, and John Wesley also having believed in the Perpetual Virginity.

This is the first time I am reading how Catholics interpret Galatians 1:19 as saying James was actually from Joseph first wife, who passed away before he married Mary.

But if Catholics believed that, then when Joseph and Mary left Jerusalem for Egypt with boy Jesus in Matthew 2:13-16, they have to also believe that Joseph left all his other children, that were supposedly born before Jesus, in Jerusalem, to fend for themselves?

And all these without scripture references? I don't know how you concluded that is the "prevailing beliefs among a plurality or majority of all Christians, even today"

Guojing · Aug 5, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Saint Paul means that James was brought up by Jesus' parents.

So I assume you share the view too that James was from Joseph's previous wives, who all pass away before he marry Mary?

Mariolatry?

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