Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
At the very least, it is undeniable that the god of historical Christianity and the god of Universalists are drastically different.
Or, not.
I guess that's the question under discussion. Perhaps you would like to engage? Do you think it is even possible that God could save all? Zippy, gather up your courage, make an assertion, and defend it.
Do you not think that the conceptual differences are drastic?
I am not the one who has failed to engage. This thread is filled with my unanswered arguments. Go back and pick one if you're interested.
You seem to think that I started a thread on why Universalism is incorrect. But you started the thread, and you claim to furnish us with an argument in favor of Universalism. The person who gives an argument assumes the burden of proof. But refusal to defend any of one's premises means that one has not actually made an argument in any real sense, nor have they assumed the burden of proof. This thread is essentially the assertion, "A good God wouldn't send anyone to Hell. Prove me wrong." If I want to argue against Universalism tout court I will start my own thread.
But yes, until this thread presents a real argument for the position of the OP I will move on.
But God made the rules. He decided to create an eternal place of torment for people who rejected him. He could have let people reject him and not had such a horrible consequence.btw, how would #3 ever follow? #3 would seem to suppose that there is no such thing as a refusal to repent/rejection of God for example or that free will doesn't exist. But those do exist. There are some that refuse to repent. We are told in scripture that some become vessels of destruction, and they are not removed ahead of time.
Ah! This will be much more clear than my wording above!! --
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”
Matthew 13 NIV
(Italics added; notice that the wheat needs to grow to maturity before being harvested)
No. It appears to be one of His limitations, like not lying, nor breaking His promises...Okay, do you think it is even possible for God to save all?
It seems that from the Christian POV, everyone has a choice between heaven or hell, and our personal will is sovereign over our destination in the after life.The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven, even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell. We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.
For what purpose is "eternal" punishment? What is the goal?No, that God cannot exist in the same reality with such a hell [ECT], when He, Himself, announced its existence and its (original) purpose, the eternal punishment of fallen angels (which God isn't).
Is God allowed to create a place of eternal punishment for them?
Is He allowed to expand its purpose to include unrepentant humans, if He so chooses (and has clearly stated)?
[Her] argument that Hell was not compatible with God's reality could have only been true before the angels' rebellion, since it was their leader who orchestrated the human Fall.
If sinners aren't allowed, you won't be there either. (nor will I)If sinners are allowed in paradise, I don't want to be resurrected.
If we could limit a divine attribute, we thereby nullify it. Omni = allNo matter where we place the freedom, it seems God could avoid sending people to hell unless we limit one of the divine attributes, which may actually be the case. I don't know.
Adolf Hitler was actually a nice guy. What he was up to is just "beyond our understanding". I'm sure his motives were pure, despite what it looked like. Right?That means God is either flippant on whom He receives, or He has good reasons that are beyond our understanding.
There we go. Lay the blame where it belongs. Most Christians blame the victims.But God made the rules. He decided to create an eternal place of torment for people who rejected him. He could have let people reject him and not had such a horrible consequence.
The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven, even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell. We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.
Those who claim that our own will is sovereign over our destiny would have to concede that it doesn't end when we arrive. Then what?Interesting! Can those in heaven be corrupted? Perhaps they can. That is a fascinating take because I think most assume our struggles are over once there. But maybe we are still susceptible to sin?
Interesting that questioning the dogma quickly changes to questioning the Creator. Assuming the dogma is right and the questioning is wrong.My view is, who am I to question the creator?
The church had a "history" in the east BEFORE it had a history in the west.The reason we're in the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum is because Universalism has historically been viewed as a Christian heresy, which is to say that the historical Church has consistently concluded that Universalists worship a different God and hold to a different faith.
Jesus spoke quite a bit about hell and about judgment. So what you propose is maybe possible but if we believe Jesus it is unlikely. I think we have to take Jesus at face value in what He considers to be important. Or else straight up say He is an unreliable guide to truth.I think anyone who sees God as being where their true happiness and fulfilment lies then they could not want otherwise than to be with Him. Lot's of people in this life have turned their back on God but isn't this because they see that their happiness lies elsewhere, as the Prodigal Son did? I don't believe scripture says that God stops acting on us after death, indeed their are passages that day the opposite, so I don't don't see why God wouldn't be able to reveal Himself as the thing that we really want to someone in "hell" however slowly and painstaking a process that would be. It would involve the person acknowledging great wrongs that they have done and repenting, and that's never an easy process. But God has made it clear that he desires all to be saved and I think He would be able to get through to anyone eventually and achieve His stated purpose of reconciling all people and the whole world to Him.
Jesus spoke quite a bit about hell and about judgment. So what you propose is maybe possible but if we believe Jesus it is unlikely. I think we have to take Jesus at face value in what He considers to be important. Or else straight up say He is an unreliable guide to truth.
If sinners aren't allowed, you won't be there either. (nor will I)
Interesting that questioning the dogma quickly changes to questioning the Creator. Assuming the dogma is right and the questioning is wrong.
"Sure it doesn't make sense. But his ways are higher than our ways..."
There is a problem with the translations we are working with. Those with a bias towards ECT are putting words in Jesus' mouth.Jesus spoke quite a bit about hell and about judgment. So what you propose is maybe possible but if we believe Jesus it is unlikely. I think we have to take Jesus at face value in what He considers to be important. Or else straight up say He is an unreliable guide to truth.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?