Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

Der Alte said:

I feel quite sure that Hmm is quite capable of responding to my posts on his own.

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I'm fulfilling your request:

Der Alte said:

Churlish? Please show me where anything I posted is "rude in a mean-spirited and surly way."

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MMXX said:

I'm fulfilling your request:

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I was not speaking about my posts to others but my posts addressed to you.

Der Alte said:

I was not speaking about my posts to others but my posts addressed to you.

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In that case see below:

Der Alte said:

I feel quite sure that Hmm is quite capable of responding to my posts on his own.

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However I was speaking about your churlishness in general. Reading it directed at others is just as an unpleasant experience as when it's directed at me.

Peter J Barban said:

The main flaw of this argument is assuming that there is something wrong/bad/evil with Hell. Hell is actually right/good/holy. God is good, righteous, and holy, thus everything that God creates is good, therefor Hell is good too.
God is love and Hell's loving purpose is to torment the enemies of God.
Rejecting the God-created Hell puts you on the opposite of good.

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Kinda plays hob with the normal meanings of words, that, doesn't it?

Der Alte said:

"...that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

"...that God may be all in all." First Corinthians 15:28, KJV
If it was a done deal Paul would not have used the subjunctive mood the mood of possibility and pontentiality he would have used the active indicative mood "that He shall have mercy" "God shall be all in all."

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that He may show mercy - ἐλεήσῆ (eleēsē) Romans 11:32
Definition: to have pity or mercy on, to show mercy
Usage: I pity, have mercy on.

Matthew 5:7 V-FIP-3P
GRK: ὅτι αὐτοὶ ἐλεηθήσονται
NAS: are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
KJV: for they shall obtain mercy.
INT: for they will receive mercy
Matthew 9:27 V-AMA-2S
GRK: καὶ λέγοντες Ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς υἱὸς
NAS: Him, crying out, Have mercy on us, Son
KJV: [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on us.
INT: and saying Have mercy on us Son

Matthew 15:22 V-AMA-2S
GRK: ἔκραζεν λέγουσα Ἐλέησόν με κύριε
NAS: out, saying, Have mercy on me, Lord,
KJV: saying, Have mercy on me,
INT: cried saying Have mercy on me master

Matthew 17:15 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγων Κύριε ἐλέησόν μου τὸν
NAS: Lord, have mercy on my son,
KJV: Lord, have mercy on my son:
INT: saying master Have mercy on my

Matthew 18:33 V-ANA
GRK: καὶ σὲ ἐλεῆσαι τὸν σύνδουλόν
NAS: you not also have had mercy
KJV: also have had compassion on thy
INT: also you to have pitied the fellow servant

Matthew 18:33 V-AIA-1S
GRK: κἀγὼ σὲ ἠλέησα
NAS: have had mercy on your fellow slave,
KJV: as I had pity on thee?
INT: also I you had pitied

Matthew 20:30 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγοντες Κύριε ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς υἱὸς
NAS: out, Lord, have mercy on us, Son
KJV: saying, Have mercy on us,
INT: saying Lord Have mercy on us Son

Matthew 20:31 V-AMA-2S
GRK: λέγοντες Κύριε ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς υἱὸς
NAS: Son of David, have mercy on us!
KJV: saying, Have mercy on us,
INT: saying Lord Have mercy on us Son

Mark 5:19 V-AIA-3S
GRK: πεποίηκεν καὶ ἠλέησέν σε
NAS: has done for you, and [how] He had mercy on you.
KJV: and hath had compassion on thee.
INT: did and had mercy on you

Mark 10:47 V-AMA-2S
GRK: Δαυὶδ Ἰησοῦ ἐλέησόν με
NAS: Son of David, have mercy on me!
KJV: [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
INT: of David Jesus have mercy on me

Mark 10:48 V-AMA-2S
GRK: Υἱὲ Δαυίδ ἐλέησόν με
NAS: Son of David, have mercy on me!
KJV: [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
INT: Son of David have mercy on me

Luke 16:24 V-AMA-2S
GRK: Πάτερ Ἀβραάμ ἐλέησόν με καὶ
NAS: Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
KJV: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and
INT: Father Abraham have compassion on me and

Luke 17:13 V-AMA-2S
GRK: Ἰησοῦ ἐπιστάτα ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς
NAS: Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!
KJV: Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
INT: Jesus Master have compassion on us

Luke 18:38 V-AMA-2S
GRK: υἱὲ Δαυίδ ἐλέησόν με
NAS: Son of David, have mercy on me!
KJV: [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
INT: Son of David have mercy on me

Luke 18:39 V-AMA-2S
GRK: Υἱὲ Δαυίδ ἐλέησόν με
NAS: Son of David, have mercy on me!
KJV: [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.
INT: Son of David have mercy on me

Romans 9:15 V-FIA-1S
GRK: γὰρ λέγει Ἐλεήσω ὃν ἂν
NAS: to Moses, I WILL HAVE MERCY
KJV: to Moses, I will have mercy on whom
INT: indeed he says I will show mercy to whom anyhow

Romans 9:15 V-PSA-1S
GRK: ὃν ἂν ἐλεῶ καὶ οἰκτιρήσω
NAS: I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM
KJV: whom I will have mercy, and
INT: whom anyhow I show mercy and I will feel compassion on

Romans 9:16 V-PPA-GMS
GRK: ἀλλὰ τοῦ ἐλεῶντος θεοῦ
NAS: but on God who has mercy.
KJV: but of God that sheweth mercy.
INT: but on whom shows mercy God

Romans 9:18 V-PIA-3S
GRK: ὃν θέλει ἐλεεῖ ὃν δὲ
NAS: So then He has mercy on whom
KJV: Therefore hath he mercy on whom
INT: to whom he wants he shows mercy whom however

Romans 11:30 V-AIP-2P
GRK: νῦν δὲ ἠλεήθητε τῇ τούτων
NAS: but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
KJV: now obtained mercy through
INT: now however have been shown mercy the of these

Romans 11:31 V-ASP-3P
GRK: αὐτοὶ νῦν ἐλεηθῶσιν
NAS: may now be shown mercy.
KJV: they also may obtain mercy.
INT: they now might have mercy shown [them]

Romans 11:32 V-ASA-3S
GRK: τοὺς πάντας ἐλεήσῃ
NAS: so that He may show mercy to all.
KJV: that he might have mercy upon all.
INT: all he might show mercy to

Romans 12:8 V-PPA-NMS
GRK: σπουδῇ ὁ ἐλεῶν ἐν ἱλαρότητι
NAS: with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
KJV: diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with
INT: earnestness he that shows mercy with cheerfulness

1 Corinthians 7:25 V-RPM/P-NMS
GRK: δίδωμι ὡς ἠλεημένος ὑπὸ κυρίου
NAS: an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord
KJV: as one that hath obtained mercy of
INT: I give as having received mercy from [the] Lord

2 Corinthians 4:1 V-AIP-1P
GRK: ταύτην καθὼς ἠλεήθημεν οὐκ ἐγκακοῦμεν
NAS: ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,
KJV: as we have received mercy, we faint
INT: this as we received mercy not we faint

Der Alte said:

"...that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

"...that God may be all in all." First Corinthians 15:28, KJV
If it was a done deal Paul would not have used the subjunctive mood the mood of possibility and potentiality he would have used the active indicative mood "that He shall have mercy" "God shall be all in all."

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that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28

I can't figure out this one out so far.

1 Corinthians 15:28 Lexicon: When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:28 Greek Text Analysis

MMXX said:

that God may be all in all.

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Is he auguing that the "may" is conditional, as in "He may, and He may not"? Gotta ponder on that one for a spell.

Jipsah said:

Kinda plays hob with the normal meanings of words, that, doesn't it?

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I think that Jesus was doing the same thing when he chided his listeners for calling themselves good when only God is good. The world is always sure of its goodness. God thinks otherwise.

Der Alte said:

"...that God may be all in all." First Corinthians 15:28, KJV
If it was a done deal Paul would not have used the subjunctive mood the mood of possibility and pontentiality he would have used the active indicative mood "that He shall have mercy" "God shall be all in all."

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You can't just isolate the word 'may' like that and say that it's conditional. Let's look at the entire verse:

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all."
1 Corinthians 15:28

Your novel interpretation is that this is saying:
"When Christ's mediatorial reign ends, all things will be subject to God, giving all authority to God, and He might be “all in all."

But this, of course, makes no sense. Once "all things are in subjection under him" then He will be 'all in all' by definition. May is used to indicate that the subjugation must come first. This then allows the universal reconciliation to happen.

Peter J Barban said:

The world is always sure of its goodness. God thinks otherwise.

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Sounds like a Reformed bias. At the end of each day of creation God said it was good. Did he change his mind?

Saint Steven said:

Sounds like a Reformed bias.

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Exactly.

Hmm said:

Exactly.

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Isn't it the first point in Calvinism? (TULIP) Total Depravity.
Nice to know that Father God views his children as worthless. - lol

Saint Steven said:

Isn't it the first point in Calvinism? (TULIP) Total Depravity.
Nice to know that Father God views his children as worthless. - lol

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Yes, to come to such a conclusion requires a very convoluted, inverted even, and therefore man-made view of God. Again, this is all part of the Augustinan legacy, and certainly no more than that.

Hmm said:

Yes, to come to such a conclusion requires a very convoluted, inverted even, and therefore man-made view of God. Again, this is all part of the Augustinan legacy, and certainly no more than that.

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I think it is parody time again.

(parody)
Human: Hello Father God, how are you today?
God: I'm not talking to you.
Human: How come?
God: Isn't it obvious? You are totally depraved.
Human: But you created me this way, right?
God: Yes, that is correct.
Human: If you created me this way, why can't you accept me as I am?
God: That's a very good question. Let me give that some thought.

Saint Steven said:

I think it is parody time again.

(parody)
Human: Hello Father God, how are you today?
God: I'm not talking to you.
Human: How come?
God: Isn't it obvious? You are totally depraved.
Human: But you created me this way, right?
God: Yes, that is correct.
Human: If you created me this way, why can't you accept me as I am?
God: That's a very good question. Let me give that some thought.

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Yes, it's so weird you couldn't make it up! But Augustine did and his acolytes like Calvin exaggerated it, as acolytes do.

Hmm said:

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all."
1 Corinthians 15:28

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I feel that dealing with DA objections to this verse has been a very negative experience because its been about trying to counteract a very miserable message that God won't be 'all in all' despite what the verse clearly says but will instead be only 'all in some', presumably those who are able to cite their sources adequately and claim the ability to speak ancient Greek.

I believe this verse is positive and not negative and clearly says that when Christ finally overcomes all separation from God, we will all be in subjection to Christ in the same way that Christ places himself in subjection to the Father, IOW in a willing and loving obedience. Then God really will be 'all in all' because we'll all belong to Him in the way that we really want to be.

Hmm said:

I feel that dealing with DA objections to this verse has been a very negative experience because its been about trying to counteract a very miserable message that God won't be 'all in all' despite what the verse clearly says but will instead be only 'all in some', presumably those who are able to cite their sources adequately.

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Without any deep study into that scripture, I have always understood it to mean that God the Father had turned all authority over to the God the Son (Jesus Christ), but that at the end of all things, Jesus (God the Son) would return all authority back to God the Father. In that way everything, all creation, would be back under the Father's authority and possession. Not sure if that is helpful, or not.

Hmm said: ↑
"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all."
1 Corinthians 15:28

Saint Steven said:

Without any deep study into that scripture, I have always understood it to mean that God the Father had turned all authority over to the God the Son (Jesus Christ), but that at the end of all things, Jesus (God the Son) would return all authority back to God the Father. In that way everything, all creation, would be back under the Father's authority and possession. Not sure if that is helpful, or not.

Hmm said: ↑
"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all."
1 Corinthians 15:28

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That's exactly how I read it too. It really is Good News! We won't be ourselves or have any of our loved ones undergoing ECT.

Hmm said:

That's exactly how I read it too. It really is Good News! We won't be ourselves or have any of our loved ones undergoing ECT.

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The context of the whole passage (and chapter) really proves it to be true.
It even includes a couple critical UR texts. (vs 22 and 23)

And verse 29 is a curiosity. (pointed out to me by LDS visitors at my door)
Which indicates a belief at the time of Paul that a person's destiny in the afterlife could be altered. It seems that Christians were being baptized for dead relatives? For which the Apostle Paul makes no objection. Even uses it as a defending point for the resurrection of the dead.

I think the LDS (Mormons) keep genealogical libraries for this reason.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 NRSV
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died." 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end," when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God" has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:29 NRSV
Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Saint Steven said:

I think it is parody time again.
(parody)
Human: Hello Father God, how are you today?
God: I'm not talking to you.
Human: How come?
God: Isn't it obvious? You are totally depraved.
Human: But you created me this way, right?
God: Yes, that is correct.
Human: If you created me this way, why can't you accept me as I am?
God: That's a very good question. Let me give that some thought.

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Secuse me, but isn't the idea that we're all eaten up with sin and desperately in need of saving the view of pretty much every Christian sect ever? What am I missing here?