Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

Lazarus Short · Aug 10, 2021

TedT said:
Hell is euphemistic... The place of hell is the outer darkness.

Consider:
unless the physical universe is infinite, it has an edge. What is out there past the edge? Nothing, absolutely nothing created by our GOD. Not only is it vast but the relatively small numbers of Satanic souls out there will probably never find each other at all and would hate each other if they did...

GOD did not have to created hell, it is that place where HE did not create anything...outside HIS creation.

I think you're guessing, unless you have been to the "edge" of the universe.

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
That verse is suggestive, even if we overlook the accuracy of the translation, but it is not proof. He also states that we shall ALL be salted with fire, so if your quote is from the KJV (you really need to specify) that translation gives mixed signals. Thus, the observation that the KJV appears to teach all three afterlife outcomes.

Why do you have doubts about the translation of Matthew 25:41? I am not aware of any alternate translation. NIV, ISV, ASV, ESV, NET all read essentially the same. Maybe you are trying to argue that "aionios" never means "eternal." Jesus defined "aionios" as "'eternal" at least 10 times. See e.g.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
.....What does "salted with fire" mean? "Salt" is never said to have any saving property.

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

The meat offerings were already acceptable to God before they were salted. The salt was not applied to unclean meat. Anything that is unclean salt cannot make it clean.
The salting with fire was for those who already believed and followed Jesus.

Mark 9:41
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Mark 9:49
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Please see my post [#166] above this thread re: the Jewish belief in hell.

TedT · Aug 10, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
I think you're guessing, unless you have been to the "edge" of the universe.

Of course I'm guessing! I set a premise that's all. A premise that is quite likely as I know of no one who believes or even considers that our present realty is infinite in size.

Hmm · Aug 10, 2021

Der Alte said:
Jesus defined "aionios" as "'eternal" at least 10 times.

That's very unlikely unless Jesus spoke Greek and English

Peter J Barban · Aug 11, 2021

public hermit said:
Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

This argument contributes nothing to the reality of God and Hell.

The problem with this argument is that the assumptions are not proven, only assumed. There is not an iota of data given in support. Can any of these assumptions be proven true or false?

Essentially the argument is: Assuming that hell is impossible therefore it does not exist.

Saint Steven · Aug 11, 2021

Peter J Barban said:
This argument contributes nothing to the reality of God and Hell.

The problem with this argument is that the assumptions are not proven, only assumed. There is not an iota of data given in support. Can any of these assumptions be proven true or false?

Essentially the argument is: Assuming that hell is impossible therefore it does not exist.

That saw cuts both ways.

You are assuming hell exists in your argument.
The OP argument presented says that the character of God means he could avoid it.
Is that not true?

Peter J Barban · Aug 11, 2021

Saint Steven said:
That saw cuts both ways.

You are assuming hell exists in your argument.
The OP argument presented says that the character of God means he could avoid it.
Is that not true?

My argument has nothing to with hell and everything to do with the OP's failure to show that his/her assumptions are more than whimsy.

One could just as easily make the argument:
1. Assume all creatures that fly have wings.
2. Assume pigs can fly.
3. Therefore pigs have wings!

"Pigs have wings" is logically true given the stated assumptions, but this does not represent reality.

False teaching is thusly as simple as 1, 2, 3.

Saint Steven · Aug 11, 2021

Peter J Barban said:
My argument has nothing to with hell and everything to do with the OP's failure to show that his/her assumptions are more than whimsy.

One could just as easily make the argument:
1. Assume all creatures that fly have wings.
2. Assume pigs can fly.
3. Therefore pigs have wings!

"Pigs have wings" is logically true given the stated assumptions, but this does not represent reality.

False teaching is thusly as simple as 1, 2, 3.

Can you explain why hell is unavoidable for God?

Lazarus Short · Aug 11, 2021

Peter J Barban said:
Essentially the argument is: Assuming that hell is impossible therefore it does not exist.

Have you considered that it can be proven that "hell" is impossible?

public hermit · Aug 11, 2021

Peter J Barban said:
My argument has nothing to with hell and everything to do with the OP's failure to show that his/her assumptions are more than whimsy.

One could just as easily make the argument:
1. Assume all creatures that fly have wings.
2. Assume pigs can fly.
3. Therefore pigs have wings!

"Pigs have wings" is logically true given the stated assumptions, but this does not represent reality.

False teaching is thusly as simple as 1, 2, 3.

Your example shows you don't grasp how arguments work. No one us claiming pigs have wings or fly. But there is a long tradition that claims 1) God is all powerful, all knowing, and perfectly benevolent and 2) Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever. Given that, the rest of the argument in the OP is deductive.

Look, you're not the first one in this thread who has tried to discard the argument by saying it's not an argument. I guess that's one way to try to get out of defending an omni-God who creates people for hell. I don't know, but it is an argument that apparently stands up pretty well given the weak attempts to discard it.

Please, try to engage the argument by defending an omni-God who creates people for hell. Is God not powerful enough to avoid it, doesn't know enough, is not good enough? Perhaps there's a reason that such a God would allow it, such as the great value of humans who have freedom?

Der Alte · Aug 11, 2021

Hmm said:
That's very unlikely unless Jesus spoke Greek and English

Why don't I just wait until you are ready to have a logical, reasonable discussion.
I could have written my entire post in two other languages, one of which is Greek which I studied at the graduate level, back when Reagan was president. But I'm certain you would not have understood it.
= = = = = = = = = =
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character limit. continued in next post]

Der Alte · Aug 11, 2021

[Previous post continued]
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Hmm · Aug 11, 2021

Der Alte said:
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”

I could cite many scholars who may even be as frighteningly qualified as you are that say otherwise so I'm not persuaded by your argument, sorry.

Der Alte · Aug 11, 2021

Hmm said:
I could cite many scholars who may even be as frighteningly qualified as you are that say otherwise so I'm not persuaded by your argument, sorry.

Instead of making vague, baseless claims how about quoting one scholar, two or more would be better, that provide similar scholarship support which conclusively shows that I am wrong. Versus bleeding heart arguments e.g. "God is a loving God and He would not send anyone to Hell." etc.

Clare73 · Aug 11, 2021

public hermit said:
Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

It assumes there is no good purpose in the divine administration of justice.

Scripture reveals otherwise (Romans 9:7, Romans 9:23).

Hmm · Aug 11, 2021

Der Alte said:
Instead of making vague, baseless claims how about quoting one scholar, two or more would be better, that provide similar scholarship support which conclusively shows that I am wrong. Versus bleeding heart arguments e.g. "God is a loving God and He would not send anyone to Hell." etc.

Well, I gave you about a hundred ECF quotes supporting Christian Universalism yesterday and you dismissed them all so I don't think I can be bothered tbh. If you're a scholar I'm sure you're aware of some anyway, otherwise just Google "aionios limited duration" and you'll get a plethora of results.

Clare73 · Aug 11, 2021

Hmm said:
I could cite many scholars who may even be as frighteningly qualified as you are that say otherwise so I'm not persuaded by your argument, sorry.

Your assertion without demonstration (of a refutation) is without merit.

Hmm · Aug 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
Your assertion without demonstration (of a refutation) is without merit.

But so was the other guy's... he was merely giving his own opinion and didn't cite any serious scholars to back his claims up. I've given you some search terms anyway so enjoy!

Peter J Barban · Aug 12, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Can you explain why hell is unavoidable for God?

I don't assume hell is unavoidable.
I assume the Bible is correct when it says that God is Sovereign and that he created Hell for the purpose of tormenting his enemies.
Thus, Hell was God's choice rather than something unavoidable.

Peter J Barban · Aug 12, 2021

public hermit said:
Your example shows you don't grasp how arguments work. No one us claiming pigs have wings or fly. But there is a long tradition that claims 1) God is all powerful, all knowing, and perfectly benevolent and 2) Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever. Given that, the rest of the argument in the OP is deductive.

Look, you're not the first one in this thread who has tried to discard the argument by saying it's not an argument. I guess that's one way to try to get out of defending an omni-God who creates people for hell. I don't know, but it is an argument that apparently stands up pretty well given the weak attempts to discard it.

Please, try to engage the argument by defending an omni-God who creates people for hell. Is God not powerful enough to avoid it, doesn't know enough, is not good enough? Perhaps there's a reason that such a God would allow it, such as the great value of humans who have freedom?

This OP argument is foolish. I deny that it's assumptio

ns are evidently true, and it claims no data for support.

This is a clear example of GIGO, garbage in, garbage out.

Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

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