Marian Doctrine

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Have you ever read the description of the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament?

Yeah, so?

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by humblejoe
The Trinity is also a Catholic Tradition.

Question: Where is the word "Trinity" found in the Bible?

The word "trinity" is not in the Bible. The concept is.

The idea that mary was born sinless and assumed into heaven is not in the Bible at all, anywhere, in any form.

 

[pax]

Originally posted by lambslove
But it still proves nothing.

The earliest references I could find on the concept were from the 1500's.

But even if it were from 244, what does that prove? That eight generations after Christ someone got the idea to make Mary more than just another human, that's all.

There's nothing to support the idea from Biblical or apostalic teachings.

Here are some earlier quotes...

The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

 

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

 

Justin Martyr

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

 

Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

 

[pax]

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<B>Have you ever read the description of the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament? </B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



Yeah, so?

&nbsp;

I'm not sure if this is what Joe is talking about, but there is an interesting similarity between Mary and the ark that was just kind of interesting.

According to many parallel texts in Scripture, Mary is depicted as the true Ark of the Covenant. One example is Luke 1:43. Notice Elizabeth’s exclamation when Mary enters her home shortly after she had conceived our Lord: ‘And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?’ This refers back to 2 Samuel 6:9, when the Old Testament type of Mary — the old Ark of the Covenant — was carried into the presence of King David. He said, ‘How can the ark of the Lord come to me?’ Notice the text then says, ‘And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months’ (v. 11). Luke 1:56 says, ‘And Mary remained with her about three months.’


from: target=_blank>http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.3/nandb.htm

http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.3/nandb.htm

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

The Immaculate Conception it's been said to contradict Scripture in that Scripture states that 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'.

Oh, so Jesus sinned too?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by lambslove
Jesus was no mere man, He was God in the flesh.

He had the propensity to sin, like us, and was tempted to sin in everyway we are tempted, but resisted the temptations. The Bible contains all this info.

But it says nothing about the "sinlessness of Mary," a doctrine that first cropped up in catholicism about 500 years ago. It's a catholic tradition, not a fact.

Wrong.&nbsp; Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God in the flesh.&nbsp;

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

It's a catholic tradition, not a fact.

So all Tradition is false? Do you know that a lot of the scripture was tradition before it was actually written down? And even after, most couldnt afford a copy, so they relied on tradition. So, do you know that Catholic Tradition formed the basis of your beliefs?

Do you realize why I thought it was ironic that you were calling other people heretics the other day?

 

[MizDoulos]

Please Note:

Before this discussion gets out of hand, please be reminded not to air personal criticism publicly but through your e-mail or private message option through the profile page.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by lambslove
Yeah, so?

What did the Ark hold inside? (pssst, the Word of God, (Ten Commandents stone tablets))

And what did Mary hold inside herself for 9 months? (pssst, the Word of God made flesh)



How was the Ark made? (with incorruptible acacia wood, plated in gold(does not rust) inside and out)

How was Mary made?... ... ...

I think I better stop before I start to scare myself.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Just my opinion, but I think you are grasping at straws there with the Ark of the covenent and Mary.
Well you guys go ahead and type away.
I am going to go post and update then read my bible!
Bless you all!
GEL

 

[Andrew]

"What did the Ark hold inside? (pssst, the Word of God, (Ten Commandents stone tablets))"

it also held the rod of Aaron -- symbolising rebellion against God's leadership.

andoh please, Jesus does not equal 10 commandments on the stone tablets.

btw: the work ark in ark of the cov means "coffin".

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Andrew
it also held the rod of Aaron -- symbolising rebellion against God's leadership.

If the miraculously budding Rod of Aaron was an utter symbol of "rebellion against God's leadership"(sin), then what in the world was it doing in the Ark? The Ark held the presence of God. When David said he was going to return the Ark to his people, that same passage can be read as if he said he wanted to return the presence of God to his people. Tell me, does God allow sin inside His presence, or vice versa?

andoh please, Jesus does not equal 10 commandments on the stone tablets.

He doesn't? Christ wasn't "the word made flesh to dwell among us"? God doesn't equal His word?

btw: the work ark in ark of the cov means "coffin".

Ah, so it was a symbol of death? Funny that, it holding the presence of the Living God, along with the commandents by which one shall live, a miraculously budding(living) wooden rod, the manna/bread of life that fell from the sky in the middle of a dead desert wasteland...
Not to mention that when the priest would sprinkle blood sacrifice on the mercy seat, the people were given the opportunity for new life and remission of sin.

 

[Andrew]

ever wondered why the ark had to be kept covered?

yes Jesus is the Word made flesh, not the 10 Commandments made flesh.

also you think God wld live inside the man-made ark?

btw: we dont live by the Law anymore, unless u want to remain in the OC.

and yes, the word means coffin. u can check the hebrew.