Marcus Borg’s Neotraditional Christianity

[PaladinValer]

To say God is not Substance is to deny the Trinity.

The Trinity is Three distinct Persons equally and eternally of the same One Substance.

The Nicene Creed uses the word homoousios. The Holy Spirit has spoken.

 

[Joykins]

It depends on what you mean by "immanent." If by that you mean "subjective," then it is unbiblical. The Bible clearly states that God existed before time, which means that his existence is not subjective.

No, it does not mean subjective. It means all around us and everywhere. The whole universe being God-infused.

Moreover, You seem to be under the impression that Borg only claimed that God is immanent. He didn't. Borg also claimed that God does not exist "out there" -- that he has no independent ontological status. That is both false and unbiblical.

I don't understand exactly the basis of the "out there" claim meaing that God "has no independent ontological status". In fact, I'm not sure at all that this claim is an accurate representation of what Borg believes.

My impression (from reading Borg) is that as a mystic he tends to favor or emphasize the immanent model of understanding God, but I don't recall him explicitly denying the transcendent. Borg's approach to these models of understanding God (both immanence/transcendence and all the--Biblical!-- metaphorical language such as Father, King, Judge, Lover, etc.) seems to be fairly utilitarian (e.g. "this will work for some people and it's Biblical and if it helps people get closer to God, great, but it might not work for many others (including me) so much for this reason).

He demonstrated no such thing. As I explictly said, God may be many things, but that does not mean that all descriptions of God are correct.

He quoted a passage that clearly portrayed a Psalmist's perception of an immanent deity.

All descriptions of God are necessarily incomplete. If we were to fully comprehend God I believe we'd die on the spot from our minds being completely blown.

 

[Joykins]

I fixed the wacked link a few posts above...can't win with these board editor thingies..

 

[jfer45]

Borg believes in God, but I think he describes an immanent rather than transcendent deity. Traditional Christianity believes in both immanence and transcendence. Certainly the Holy Spirit as traditionally described is immanent as it indwells believers.

No. Borg's attributes both immanence and transcendence to God.

 

[jfer45]

Which does not disprove anything that I said. If anything, since you admit that Borg denies God's transcendence, then that proves my point. Borg's concept of God is not Biblical.

Again, Borg does see God as transcendent.

 

[jubilationtcornpone]

Again, Borg does see God as transcendent.

Hey, Joykins is the one who said that Borg "describes an immanent rather than transcendent deity." I was just taking her word for it. If Borg does indeed teach a transcendent God, then either she was mistaken or Borg's stance has been inconsistent.

Moreover, Borg's concept of God is still incoherent and unbiblical, regardless of whether he teaches transcendence or not. I already posted a direct quote wherein Borg said that God does not exist "out there." Allow me to reproduce it for your own benefit:

"I realized that God does not refer to a supernatural being 'out there'... Rather God refers to the sacred at the center of existence, the holy mystery that is all around and within us." - Marcus Borg, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1994), page 14.
​

Got must certainly IS a supernatural being 'out there'! The Bible clearly teaches that God created the world -- indeed, all things. This makes him supernatural and it means that his existence is not confined to within ourselves or our perceptions.

More about Borg's twisted concept of God can be found right here.

 

[jubilationtcornpone]

To say God is not Substance is to deny the Trinity.

The Trinity is Three distinct Persons equally and eternally of the same One Substance.

The Nicene Creed uses the word homoousios. The Holy Spirit has spoken.

You didn't answer my questions, though. What does it mean to say that "God is Substance"? And if God is indeed Substance, how does this lead to Marcus Borg's conclusion that "God does not refer to a supernatural being 'out there'"?

 

[Joykins]

No. Borg's attributes both immanence and transcendence to God.

Thanks for the correction. I have returned my Borg books to the library and my memory is faulty.

 

[CaDan]

Hey, Joykins is the one who said that Borg "describes an immanent rather than transcendent deity." I was just taking her word for it. If Borg does indeed teach a transcendent God, then either she was mistaken or Borg's stance has been inconsistent.

Moreover, Borg's concept of God is still incoherent and unbiblical, regardless of whether he teaches transcendence or not. I already posted a direct quote wherein Borg said that God does not exist "out there." Allow me to reproduce it for your own benefit:

"I realized that God does not refer to a supernatural being 'out there'... Rather God refers to the sacred at the center of existence, the holy mystery that is all around and within us." - Marcus Borg, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1994), page 14.
​

Got must certainly IS a supernatural being 'out there'! The Bible clearly teaches that God created the world -- indeed, all things. This makes him supernatural and it means that his existence is not confined to within ourselves or our perceptions.

More about Borg's twisted concept of God can be found right here.

Tillich it is!

 

[Joykins]

Hey, Joykins is the one who said that Borg "describes an immanent rather than transcendent deity." I was just taking her word for it. If Borg does indeed teach a transcendent God, then either she was mistaken or Borg's stance has been inconsistent.

I was mistaken. My apologies.

Moreover, Borg's concept of God is still incoherent and unbiblical, regardless of whether he teaches transcendence or not. I already posted a direct quote wherein Borg said that God does not exist "out there." Allow me to reproduce it for your own benefit:

"I realized that God does not refer to a supernatural being 'out there'... Rather God refers to the sacred at the center of existence, the holy mystery that is all around and within us." - Marcus Borg, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1994), page 14.

​

Got must certainly IS a supernatural being 'out there'! The Bible clearly teaches that God created the world -- indeed, all things. This makes him supernatural and it means that his existence is not confined to within ourselves or our perceptions.

The quote is a short quote from a book I've never read...BUT I would not say that this quote substantiates an assertion that Borg's concept of God is "confined to within ourselves or our perceptions."

What does "Immanuel" mean, after all?

Rather, if Borg affirms a transcendent AND immanent God, then he affirms the God of orthodox Christianity in those particulars.

More about Borg's twisted concept of God can be found right here.

That article is more notable for its bias than its accuracy. The author has made no attempt to understand what Borg is trying to say, but is entirely focused on trying to argue with Borg's ideas (many of which he doesn't appear to understand).

 

[jfer45]

Hey, Joykins is the one who said that Borg "describes an immanent rather than transcendent deity." I was just taking her word for it. If Borg does indeed teach a transcendent God, then either she was mistaken or Borg's stance has been inconsistent.

Moreover, Borg's concept of God is still incoherent and unbiblical, regardless of whether he teaches transcendence or not. I already posted a direct quote wherein Borg said that God does not exist "out there." Allow me to reproduce it for your own benefit:

"I realized that God does not refer to a supernatural being 'out there'... Rather God refers to the sacred at the center of existence, the holy mystery that is all around and within us." - Marcus Borg, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time (San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1994), page 14.



​

Got must certainly IS a supernatural being 'out there'! The Bible clearly teaches that God created the world -- indeed, all things. This makes him supernatural and it means that his existence is not confined to within ourselves or our perceptions.

That quote is taken out of context. Borg is referring to, what he believes, is the popular notion of God. Borg grew up in church which emphasized a God that is a person-like being out there and not here. He doesn't see God this way anymore, but rather affirms that God is "more than the universe" or more than the "here and now".