Marcion's Antithesis

[Phantasman]

Out of the many contradictions between the Creator God and the Father of Jesus, I found these contradiction the most compelling.

God of the OT
I am the Lord, and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil...
Isaiah 45:6,7

God the Father of Christ
God is light, and in Him is no dark- ness at all (1 John 1:5b) God is love (1 John 4:16); [Love] thinketh no evil (1 Corinthians 13:5d).



It is between the Gospel and the OT. Though there are many more, it is not Paul, but mostly those Disciples of Jesus who seemed to write about the difference. If they merely wrote what the spirit was telling them, then it is up to us to find the truth in this matter. After studying this more, I can see two Gods, and why the demiurge is identified. If this is truth, the OT does more to confuse the Gospel than to edify it. Combining truth with untruth causes a world of confusion.

Any thoughts on the subject?[/quote]

This works for awhile.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

I think it's true the OT does more to confuse the NT than edify it. I would imagine that is the reason Gideon Bibles have most of the OT axed out.

 

[Phantasman]

Out of the many contradictions between the Creator God and the Father of Jesus, I found these contradiction the most compelling.

God of the OT
I am the Lord, and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil...
Isaiah 45:6,7

God the Father of Christ
God is light, and in Him is no dark- ness at all (1 John 1:5b) God is love (1 John 4:16); [Love] thinketh no evil (1 Corinthians 13:5d).



It is between the Gospel and the OT. Though there are many more, it is not Paul, but mostly those Disciples of Jesus who seemed to write about the difference. If they merely wrote what the spirit was telling them, then it is up to us to find the truth in this matter. After studying this more, I can see two Gods, and why the demiurge is identified. If this is truth, the OT does more to confuse the Gospel than to edify it. Combining truth with untruth causes a world of confusion.

Any thoughts on the subject?

This works for awhile.

 

[Phantasman]

The Creator OT God
1 Kings
9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down.
10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.
12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.


Yet Jesus said:


God the Father of Jesus
Luke 9:
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


"Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" tells me that though they knew the OT ways, that he was telling them that they didn't know the new ways Jesus was teaching.

 

[Soulgazer]

The problem with Marcion is in my view that he was a literalist, which is why I prefer the Valentinian mythicism. I agree with Marcion in that the God of parts of the OT was an entirely different God than the one presented by Jesus, but that's about as far as I agree with him. He was not only an extreme literalist, but also an extreme ascetic.

 

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

I used to think the same regarding Valentinianism, Soulgazer. But have since started to think they were more literalists than we give them credit for.

 

[Phantasman]

The problem with Marcion is in my view that he was a literalist, which is why I prefer the Valentinian mythicism. I agree with Marcion in that the God of parts of the OT was an entirely different God than the one presented by Jesus, but that's about as far as I agree with him. He was not only an extreme literalist, but also an extreme ascetic.

Still, if we question the Antithesis, what do we come up with? It still appears black and white, though I would agree that things like God asking where Adam was, doesn't signify ignorance. Just that maybe God wanted Adam to produce himself before him. And asking if he ate of the Tree of Knowledge, just could be to see if Adam would lie as well.

But still, the scripture differentials are hard to ignore.

 

[Soulgazer]

I used to think the same regarding Valentinianism, Soulgazer. But have since started to think they were more literalists than we give them credit for.

It could be---but in Valentinism there are several definitions of the demiurgic forces that range from the Marcionite "god of justice" to the "god of nature". That they both sincerely believed that Judaism had it wrong, I can't disagree with. Quite possibly they both recieved Paul's teaching second hand, and like a game of "telephone" it came out garbled, with just a seed of the original teaching in it. That Paul left Judaism behind, he has stated as much; certainly it was an attitude that spread through Christianity until Catholicism tried to (re?)integrate the two beliefs. Admittedly, we only have Marcion's detractors to investigate his beliefs with, and they have proven themselves to be of dubious character.

 

[Soulgazer]

Still, if we question the Antithesis, what do we come up with? It still appears black and white, though I would agree that things like God asking where Adam was, doesn't signify ignorance. Just that maybe God wanted Adam to produce himself before him. And asking if he ate of the Tree of Knowledge, just could be to see if Adam would lie as well.

But still, the scripture differentials are hard to ignore.

They are indeed hard to ignore, which is why the book was banned.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

Marcion might have been an extremist of sorts, but he seems to be a lot more honest than the popular church Christians were left with.

 

[Phantasman]

Marcion might have been an extremist of sorts, but he seems to be a lot more honest than the popular church Christians were left with.

With the power of Rome behind you, it would be an easier task for the RCC to crush any opposition. Didn't it work for the Jews?

Marcion probably had to remain below the radar and in the out lying areas of the Empire. Kind of like starting a new DOS when Microsoft has the hold on most all distros.

 

[Soulgazer]

With the power of Rome behind you, it would be an easier task for the RCC to crush any opposition. Didn't it work for the Jews?

Marcion probably had to remain below the radar and in the out lying areas of the Empire. Kind of like starting a new DOS when Microsoft has the hold on most all distros.

Not him personally. Still another 200 odd years before Rome adopted catholicism as the state religion. However, most christians sacrificed in the arenas were Marcionites, even by simple statistitcs. Around the year 180-200, while the proto orthodox and catholic and Gnostics numbered in just the several thousands combined, Marcionite Christianity had reached the length and breadth of the Roman empire. I've read estimates that went as high as 300,000+. They hung on in the face of persecution until well into the fifth century. Their symbol, the womb of Gnosis, or Vagina, represented by a styalized fish™ can be seen on car bumpers even today, a kind of poetic justice.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

wow I'd never heard any of that...

I don't understand though, if the proto-orthodox were so small in number, how did the Marcionites get marginalized and Catholicism become the official orthodoxy?

I guess I don't know anything about this part of church history.

 

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

However, most christians sacrificed in the arenas were Marcionites, even by simple statistitcs. Around the year 180-200, while the proto orthodox and catholic and Gnostics numbered in just the several thousands combined, Marcionite Christianity had reached the length and breadth of the Roman empire. I've read estimates that went as high as 300,000+.

Never heard those numbers, do you have any references for that? I know the Marcionites were a very large Church, and if the heresy hunters are right (which I don't think they were) would render them the fastest growing "denomination" in the whole 2,000 year history of the Church.

Their symbol, the womb of Gnosis, or Vagina, represented by a styalized fish™ can be seen on car bumpers even today, a kind of poetic justice.

This is also new to me, any references would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

g

 

[Soulgazer]

I wish I did have a referrence to the 300,000 number. It was in a magazine article, right after the discovery of an ancient marcionite church. It spoke of that number in regard to their wide geographic spread.

The fish symbol is easier. Though this article does not tie it in with the Marcionites, whom I assume adopted it from an earlier culture: True Origin of Christian "FISH" Symbol

 

[Soulgazer]

wow I'd never heard any of that...

I don't understand though, if the proto-orthodox were so small in number, how did the Marcionites get marginalized and Catholicism become the official orthodoxy?

I guess I don't know anything about this part of church history.

My stroke took away a good portion of what I knew---it comes back as vague shadowy memories. I remember it being an exciting study though, and the Marcionites had such influence that they are the key to understnading some scriptures of other groups.

 

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

I wish I did have a referrence to the 300,000 number. It was in a magazine article, right after the discovery of an ancient marcionite church. It spoke of that number in regard to their wide geographic spread.

The fish symbol is easier. Though this article does not tie it in with the Marcionites, whom I assume adopted it from an earlier culture: True Origin of Christian "FISH" Symbol

Thank you Soulgazer.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

My stroke took away a good portion of what I knew---it comes back as vague shadowy memories. I remember it being an exciting study though, and the Marcionites had such influence that they are the key to understnading some scriptures of other groups.

I could imagine there is no simple answer

 

[Soulgazer]

I could imagine there is no simple answer

There really isn't. It's a piece of history that is obfuscated by religious belief and dogma, to the point that one of the most influential shapers of Christianity is also one that most people have never heard of.

 

[Phantasman]

This was on this man's site.

Marcionite asceticism

Salvation also involved rejecting the Creator’s world with its physical enticements. This led to ascetic practices. One such practice was avoiding marriage and asking the married to abstain from sexual relations (Frend, 1965:68). This was called sexual purity. In syriac:

Since there were no children among full members, Marcion relied entirely on new catechumens for growth. The number of catechumens would have always exceeded full members (Blackman 1948:3, n.5) and this may have caused the decline of the church in the end.

Bardaisan Marcion & Mani