Many Do Not Believe Believers Will Be Changed?

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I am shocked to have multiple posters respond to my post on the rapture claiming there is no change coming for believers.

Maybe this is just semantics on how they define the word "rapture", but one would have to ignore many verses - and the very concept of the inheritance of the imperishable body - in order to deny this.

The many verses which, otherwise, support this:
Sheep and the Goats -- those not chosen see the believers glorified
Ten Virgins -- Believers are shown to have received their inheritance, and unbelievers are locked out
The transfiguration -- Jesus transfigures into his imperishable body, with Moses and Elijah, also in their imperishable bodies. This form, we know, is what Jesus referred to when he spoke of 'son of man'. A term which relates to 'one like a son of man', which is shown in Daniel and Revelation.

Paul - 'We shall exchange the perishable body with the imperishable', 'we will be changed in a 'twinkling of the eye'', 'we are not yet perfect, but be made perfect when we see him on his return', 'now we see as if through a darkened glass, then we will see clearly', 'we will rise up to meet the Lord and live with him in the clouds forever', 'where o sin is your sting, death is swallowed up in victory', 'the last enemy is death', 'the Kingdom of God is not of flesh and blood'

the Prophets -- 'those who fail to live even to one hundred will be considered mere infants, cursed by God'

And, so on.

A core part of the message of Jesus is immortality.

Is anyone really teaching that this does not happen, or is this just disagreement with the term "rapture"?

Note: Do not state I am pre or post tribulational rapture. I hold beliefs which may be similar to either, but is different from both.

I will not engage in arguments, there is no question the Chosen will inherit immortal, spiritual bodies. I would not mind hearing, however, if there are people who do not believe this is for them, and why.

 

[ewq1938]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ALLASSO.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


HARPAZO is a word that means to lift up and move someone physically. It has nothing to do with changing mortal into immortal.

ALLASSO is a word that means to change something into something else. It has nothing to do with moving someone from one place to another.


G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G138
Citing in TDNT: 1:472, 80

G236
ἀλλάσσω
allassō
Thayer Definition:
1) to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transform
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G243
Citing in TDNT: 1:251, 40

 

[Dan the deacon]

I am shocked to have multiple posters respond to my post on the rapture claiming there is no change coming for believers.

Maybe this is just semantics on how they define the word "rapture", but one would have to ignore many verses - and the very concept of the inheritance of the imperishable body - in order to deny this.

The many verses which, otherwise, support this:
Sheep and the Goats -- those not chosen see the believers glorified
Ten Virgins -- Believers are shown to have received their inheritance, and unbelievers are locked out
The transfiguration -- Jesus transfigures into his imperishable body, with Moses and Elijah, also in their imperishable bodies. This form, we know, is what Jesus referred to when he spoke of 'son of man'. A term which relates to 'one like a son of man', which is shown in Daniel and Revelation.

Paul - 'We shall exchange the perishable body with the imperishable', 'we will be changed in a 'twinkling of the eye'', 'we are not yet perfect, but be made perfect when we see him on his return', 'now we see as if through a darkened glass, then we will see clearly', 'we will rise up to meet the Lord and live with him in the clouds forever', 'where o sin is your sting, death is swallowed up in victory', 'the last enemy is death', 'the Kingdom of God is not of flesh and blood'

the Prophets -- 'those who fail to live even to one hundred will be considered mere infants, cursed by God'

And, so on.

A core part of the message of Jesus is immortality.

Is anyone really teaching that this does not happen, or is this just disagreement with the term "rapture"?

Note: Do not state I am pre or post tribulational rapture. I hold beliefs which may be similar to either, but is different from both.

I will not engage in arguments, there is no question the Chosen will inherit immortal, spiritual bodies. I would not mind hearing, however, if there are people who do not believe this is for them, and why.

Would you.also be surprised to.hear the majority of Christians do not believe in a rapture? SURPRIZE!!!

 

[ewq1938]

Would you.also be surprised to.hear the majority of Christians do not believe in a rapture? SURPRIZE!!!

I don't believe any Christian denies a rapture.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you believe this verse?

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ALLASSO.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


HARPAZO is a word that means to lift up and move someone physically. It has nothing to do with changing mortal into immortal.

So, you see these as two different events? I must admit, 'rising up to meet the Lord in the air, to live with Jesus forever in the clouds' certainly sounds like immortality to me. Especially as the next verse continues to define this.

Also, as this is where the Chosen see the Lord, it certainly sounds like the exact same place where they are changed.

We do know the clouds are metaphoric. Real, but nobody physically rises up to meet the Lord. That is a flesh view of matters. Jesus was very specific on this, as we all recall, because we keep the word and live by it.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Would you.also be surprised to.hear the majority of Christians do not believe in a rapture? SURPRIZE!!!

No, they do believe in a rapture, unless people want to intentionally cause an entirely unnecessary division. I do not think the Church can be divided against its' self.

What I mean by 'semantics' is by arguing over the meaning of words people already both understand the meaning of. Where the argument does not get anywhere, because both parties already know what the statement means.

I disagree that people physically - literally, as some mean it - rise up. But, I do not disagree there is a rapture. This is one word for it, there are other words, as well, such as "change" and "transfigure".

They all, very clearly, refer to the very same thing.

This is basic language we all use everyday and understand what each other mean, is it not?

'Going up' is exactly a good description Paul gave for 'changing from mortal to immortal'.

People speak of 'moving up' in their career, 'glass ceilings', 'getting up in the world', 'what is up', 'climbing the ladder', 'climbing the mountain'... I mean, really, I could go on and on, so well understood is this sort of speech.

Even if there were confusion, Jesus said that the Kingdom does not come down literally from the sky, but is within/among us. The change being internally. The actual rapture is clearly shown in the transfiguration, as Jesus spoke of it as 'some seeing the coming of the Kingdom of God before they die'. And, 'if I drive out these evil spirits by the finger of God, then you know the Kingdom of God has come to you'.

Really, everyone who keeps the word knows all of these things.

I do not fault pre-tribulational rapturists in holding to the rapture, there will be a rapture. Call it whatever you want -- it is all clearly the very same thing. Many descriptions are made of this very happening.

'God is a god of order, not confusion'.

 

[ewq1938]

So, you see these as two different events?

Yes but the difference in timing could be less than a second but the definitions of the words prove they are not the same event.

I must admit, 'rising up to meet the Lord in the air, to live with Jesus forever in the clouds' certainly sounds like immortality to me. Especially as the next verse continues to define this.

How is being lifted into the air the same as receiving immortality? There are other verses where people were raptured (harpazo) without becoming immortal:

Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away HARPAZO/RAPTURED Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Was Philip immortal from this?

Also, as this is where the Chosen see the Lord, it certainly sounds like the exact same place where they are changed.

I think they are changed to immortals first which makes them able to survive up in the clouds where humans cannot survive.

We do know the clouds are metaphoric. Real, but nobody physically rises up to meet the Lord.

I cannot agree with this because the scriptures are very clear people are caught up/lifted upwards to meet with Christ as he descends in his second coming. He wants his Earthly living saints to be with him

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I don't believe any Christian denies a rapture.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you believe this verse?

Thread winner.

You can not be a Christian and not believe in the rapture. At best, it boils down to an argument of semantics. I pointed this out in the original post. This is a serious matter. We all know what an argument of semantics is.

Everyone has different definitions of words, but to speak "english" to each other, we have to come to shared definitions. There are frequently different words used for the very same thing.

Maybe someone will be able to explain how "the rapture" is different from "the change", but I really do not see this happening beyond a pure semantic level.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Yes but the difference in timing could be less than a second but the definitions of the words prove they are not the same event.



How is being lifted into the air the same as receiving immortality? There are other verses where people were raptured (harpazo) without becoming immortal:

Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away HARPAZO/RAPTURED Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Was Philip immortal from this?




I think they are changed to immortals first which makes them able to survive up in the clouds where humans cannot survive.






I cannot agree with this because the scriptures are very clear people are caught up/lifted upwards to meet with Christ as he descends in his second coming. He wants his Earthly living saints to be with him

Okay, this is beyond semantics, thank you. Though, I do believe everyone who has been lifted up to Heaven has achieved immortality. And I do believe when people use the word "rapture", that is exactly what they mean (whether they consciously understand that or not).

The confusion, to me, is merely because they do not understand what the change is.

Elijah and Enoch will live with the saints. They are saints.

I will agree to disagree with you on this.

This gets into the nature of transfiguration, and the lifting up of those on the earth to be at the exalted state of those already transfigured.

As for the part about Philip:
When people speak of "the rapture", they are not speaking of 'a rapture'.

You may mean some manner of interpretation of prophecy which I have come across, or not, but seem to separate the two verses which are side by side. I am not sure how you do this, or what you are trying to say. But, I do not believe you know what the transfiguration meant, or what the change means.

This is normal, as you have never seen it, nor experienced it.

So, like people with bumperstickers that say, or said, 'warning this car will be unoccupied in case of rapture'... I disagree anyone will be raptured "like that". Jesus is very explicit about the Kingdom being within and not coming down literally from the sky.

That is part of the Word which all Christians live by, so they know it very well.

 

[ewq1938]

But, I do not believe you know what the transfiguration meant, or what the change means.

lol. You just called me "thread winner" and now say I don't understand these simplistic things? I know what those things are, but it's ok if you don't think I do.

 

[keras]

An error of people who believe in a 'rapture to heaven. is in thinking that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 happens at the Return of Jesus.
That Paul's prophecy there will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement, is proved by how Death is no more then. As it will be AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[ewq1938]

An error of people who believe in a 'rapture to heaven. is in thinking that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 happens at the Return of Jesus.

Those verses are about the second coming...last trump equals the last trump in Rev which does show the second coming. The error is all yours sir.

 

[keras]

Those verses are about the second coming...last trump equals the last trump in Rev which does show the second coming. The error is all yours sir.

Wrong, sir.
There will be death during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20
I refer to the second coming as described in Revelation 19:11-21, which is at the 7th Bowl- Armageddon.

I am well aware of the teaching of the 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they become immortal at the rapture. All false teaching and totally unsupported by scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrong, sir.
There will be death during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20
I refer to the second coming as described in Revelation 19:11-21, which is at the 7th Bowl- Armageddon.

I am well aware of the teaching of the 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they become immortal at the rapture. All false teaching and totally unsupported by scripture.

Nothing abut heaven there....but immortality does happen at the second coming.

 

[Seville90210]

There's several resurrections ahead and not just one. The 1st resurrection involves several stages of resurrections and than there's the 2nd resurrection after the millennium that Paul also wrote about in elaborate details in 1 Corinthians 15. People got to read the bible directly and read the entire chapter and not rely on other people's interpretations.

 

[BABerean2]

There will be death during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

Look at the context of the rest of the passage.

The passage is not about the Millennium.

The verse comes after the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth, in verse 17.

There is no more weeping and crying in the verse before it.

Isaiah 64:20 begins with a negative.
Therefore, everything that follows the words "no more" will not occur in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

The last verse reveals that the curse has been lifted.
You cannot have death after the curse is lifted.

Context is the key to understanding Isaiah 65:20.

.

 

[Seville90210]

Look at the context of the rest of the passage.

The passage is not about the Millennium.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

What comes after the Millennium is the Eternal Kingdom and God will dwell with man. In His Eternal Kingdom, we don't build houses in God's presence. He's already made them all for us.

2 Corinthians 5:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

[BABerean2]

What comes after the Millennium is the Eternal Kingdom and God will dwell with man. In His Eternal Kingdom, we don't build houses in God's presence. He's already made them all for us.

2 Corinthians 5:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I am enjoying the discussion and the different opinions but I remember:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+28:7&version=KJV
Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+64:4&version=KJV

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+28:7&version=KJV

 

[keras]

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. .

Yes, that does seem to mean the NH,NE happens then, but that is impossible, as there is no Death in Eternity with God. Revelation 21:1-7 says; then Death will be no more.
So Isaiah 65:17 is a prophecy of the NH, NE, to come after the Millennium.

Therefore, Isaiah 65:18-25 refers to the Millennium period; one of the former periods, that will be forgotten for Eternity.

Nothing abut heaven there....but immortality does happen at the second coming.

No it doesn't.
Revelation 20:4 does not refer to immortality. The martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the Anti-Christ will be brought back to life, like Lazarus was and like him, they must await the Last Day; when at the Great White Throne Judgement, the Book o Life will be opened and immortality conferred upon those whose names are Written in it.
NEVER before that Day does anyone receive immortality.