Man's Worth

MamaZ · Jun 1, 2013

fhansen said:
A way I'd put it is to say that if man is worthy, it's for no other reason than because of God's love. A 16th century believer's quote relates to this: "It's love alone that gives worth to all things". (Teresa of Avila)

No man is worthy of Gods love.. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. But While we were yet sinners Christ died for us..

fhansen · Jun 1, 2013

MamaZ said:
No man is worthy of Gods love.. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. But While we were yet sinners Christ died for us..

Gods love is what makes us worthy-that's what Adam didn't know, and that's what we're here to find out. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

MamaZ · Jun 1, 2013

fhansen said:
Gods love is what makes us worthy-that's what Adam didn't know, and that's what we're here to find out. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

you may have to expound on this so I understand what you are saying.

brinny · Jun 1, 2013

fhansen said:
Gods love is what makes us worthy-that's what Adam didn't know, and that's what we're here to find out. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

No offense intended brother, but none of us are "worthy"...that's why a Savior was needed in the first place. Only HE is "worthy".

In spite of our "un-worthiness" God's grace and mercy prompted Jesus the Christ to be "worthy" in our place. Recognizing our wretched need for God's grace doesn't mean He hates or despises us..it means He, like the Great Physician He is, Sends us the "cure" for our "wretchedness". And us, recognizing our need, accept, recognizing His worthiness, and are eternally grateful that He did so, and thus we praise Him for it.

Only the Lamb of God is worthy. We are not.

Amazing Grace lyrics epitomizes our condition before God.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.
The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.
Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

christ disciple · Jun 1, 2013

TamaraLynne said:
I must be an odd fish

As a mom with eight children I understand about the bubble or how my children think the world revolves around them. I take notice right away when they reach out to others and it is not so much about them.
We know what we know and of course it is the core of our existence to be aware of ourselves and then to be aware of how everything around us affects us...it is us being aware of ourselves that increases learning of what is around us. We even have to understand the good around us to embrace it and then give it. I understand some people out there have not quite gotten the memo about loving others but they love themselves and grab at whatever they think will make them happy and probably angry when others don't bow to their desires.Makes me wonder how they observed the world while growing up to become this way.

If a child in Africa is close to death because of starvation and someone comes along and feeds him and he is brought back to health. When that child grows up and sees someone else who is starving ...empathy will sting his heart and he will reach out in love and feed the hungry person. It is because we are aware of ourselves first and then we can look at others as we look at ourselves...this is how I see it

I had it kinda rough as a child and I blamed myself and thought that everything around me that was happening was because of something about me. For example when I was in the fifth grade my stepdad went to prison and my mom was an alcoholic so all of us children were separated into foster homes and my real dad came to the mainland(he lived in Hawaii) he spent one day with us and promised to come back to take us home with him..he never came back For years I thought it was because I was not pretty and he just did not want an ugly daughter to be near him. I felt worthless.
It has taken way to long of me trying focusing on who I think I am and get the focus of my worth to be where it should be.

If it was up to God he would want me to run into his arms...he wants me to see how he sees me. He came and died for all of us because we are worth it.

My real dad walked away...but god the father does not walk away...we do. Even if it is in a wretched state of seeing ourselves or a spoiled me me me the world bows to me type of people. Basically we need to just snap out of it and open our eyes again..God is so patient and first we have to feel that love and KNOW we are worth it in the eyes of God...then we can step out and love others...by the way it is like Christmas loving others and knowing their worth and giving is so much better then sitting there feeling sad about how many gifts or if any that you might receive .
All I know is God has been working on what I mean to him...he already knows how I love him but he wants me to know who I am to him..how much he loves me...and I know that I will be able to reach out in love to others especially those who have a wretched wretched view of themselves...because I've been there.

Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Amen Sister.

Tell me, where is "self" placed in the order of Loving?

Why?

Hint: If I Love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Am I not truly Loving myself by Loving Him?

Does not 1 Cor 13 say that Love is not self seeking?

And If I wish to be Christ Disciple what must I do?

christ disciple · Jun 1, 2013

fhansen said:
That's it! Even with ourselves we're to come to hate the sin-but love the sinner-otherwise we're denouncing God's very creation. I think it might actually still be pride, posing as humility, sort of a subtle new face of Phariseeism, that makes us over-focus on our evilness, wretchedness, etc. because somehow we tend to feel holier when we do so-maybe this is related to shame. Anyway, somewhere back inside all people must exist something of awesome worth, testifying to an awesome God!

Voila!

Our identity and worth are found "in Christ" and because He has placed value and worth upon us we testify of His Great Love.

As for pride, it can be found in either extreme. We can think too highly or too lowly of ourselves. That is why we are called to be sober minded (balanced) in our understanding. Without Christ we are nothing, but with Christ we can do all things.

Do you see where I coming from?

Humbling, isn't it?

fhansen · Jun 1, 2013

christ disciple said:
Voila!

Our identity and worth are found "in Christ" and because He has placed value and worth upon us we testify of His Great Love.

As for pride, it can be found in either extreme. We can think too highly or too lowly of ourselves. That is why we are called to be sober minded (balanced) in our understanding. Without Christ we are nothing, but with Christ we can do all things.

Do you see where I coming from?

Humbling, isn't it?

Yes, and now to relate it back to Chrysostom's quote in the OP, can we acknowledge that man is a "great and wonderful living creature" an awesome being in his own right, made by an infinitely more awesome God, without that acknowledgement necessarily being a matter of pride, but rather more like a general objective observation of, and appreciation for, the beauty and inherent goodness of God's creation?

christ disciple · Jun 3, 2013

fhansen said:
Yes, and now to relate it back to Chrysostom's quote in the OP, can we acknowledge that man is a "great and wonderful living creature" an awesome being in his own right, made by an infinitely more awesome God, without that acknowledgement necessarily being a matter of pride, but rather more like a general objective observation of, and appreciation for, the beauty and inherent goodness of God's creation?

Qoute by "fhansen"

I think modern Christianity sometimes focuses too much on man's unworthiness, on his worthlessness, really, and I wonder if this doesn't actually reveal our own lack of love, for ourselves and neighbor. I think early believers such as John Chrystosom, a 4th century bishop in Constantinople, had a better understanding of God's view of man, of man's innate worth, even if in potentiality:

First, would you clarify this statement by you?

The problem is not that we have a lack of love for ourselves. It's that we are too in love with ourselves like our former father Satan, is it not?

And because of this we do not love God our or neighbor.

Yes, God has placed value/worth upon His creation(mankind) and has exalted him above all creation, but this is not due to any innate goodness within man, but out of His own Grace and goodness.

When God created everything and said it was good He was declaring it good in the sense of being perfect/complete at the time.

Remember also that He sees everything from the end, as completed. He is Omniscient, is He not?

We are still going through the process.

So, once again, apart from His Enabling Grace we are nothing, but only become something when He intervenes. Our goodness flows from Him not from ourselves.

Do you see where I am coming from?

There is only One who is Good, and that is God and our worth is found in Him. To that extent "We are fearfully and wonderfully made"

Psalm 139:14
I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.

Let's exalt Him.

Now to your question concerning Chrysostum's qoute:

"What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand"

Why did God create man?

What was God wanting to display?

Who are the participants?

Who are the recipents of this display?

In the end, who receives the Glory?

Yes, there is honor received, but is it not from the overflow and not the direct implmentation thereof ?

Is it not ultimately only a by product of something greater?

Now this last statement I would have issue with the phrase trying every possible means, as though God were learning by trial and error.

What would that imply?

God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man.

Why is this so important?

What is at stake for God if He should fail?

Not looking to discredit God's Love for us, because He did create us to represent Him in creating us in His image, but more so to show that apart from Him we are inept.

fhansen · Jun 10, 2013

MamaZ said:
you may have to expound on this so I understand what you are saying.

Humans are more than a hobby for God, or an exercise in super-sophisticated design and construction technique. We come from God and are made in His image. We can still find that image within people. We're good by nature for no reason other than His goodness-He can't make anything evil. We can appreciate the beauty of life, including human life-we can recognize in man's behavior the good along with the bad: possession of the knowledge of good and evil is a part of man’s lot since the Fall.

In any case we’re each a unique expression of God, a special creation of His, and that reality wasn’t completely destroyed by the Fall. It lies dormant, stunted, obscured, largely in potential: suffocated by the selfishness that results from God not being in our lives, from God not truly being our God, IOW-man being his own god instead and apparently preferring things that way. Self-suffocation from our own pride, so to speak. But the potentiality, our “unsinful nature”, is still buried within and at times, even if on a relatively limited scale, it reveals itself via selfless acts or in our own creations: in art, music, science, education- pursuits of excellence in general- where man reflects the beauty of His maker to one degree or another. To deny this is to bury our heads in the sand IMO.

To put it another way, man is not a filthy rag, rather his righteousness are filthy rags. Because his righteousness is really a false righteousness; man was never meant to determine righteousness for himself, apart from God, and apart from God man is lost, wounded, way short of what he was intended for, and what he could be, once reconciled with God again.

ViaCrucis · Jun 11, 2013

The value of humanity is found present in the blood-stained timber of the Cross. The value of man is not found in the works which we present, which are unrighteous and broken; but rather in the created purpose, restored and redeemed, in Christ who was crucified and rose again. In Christ, human nature is itself made perfect, presented flawless before God and in Christ is found the full value of humanity.

-CryptoLutheran

fhansen · Jun 11, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
The value of humanity is found present in the blood-stained timber of the Cross. The value of man is not found in the works which we present, which are unrighteous and broken; but rather in the created purpose, restored and redeemed, in Christ who was crucified and rose again. In Christ, human nature is itself made perfect, presented flawless before God and in Christ is found the full value of humanity.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, so would you agree with Chrysostom? Do you relate to his awe at one of God's most incredible creations? All creation is awesome, some aspects more so than others perhaps. And at the same time all creation owes it's awesomeness to it's Creator, which it reflects to one degree or another.

ViaCrucis · Jun 11, 2013

fhansen said:
Yes, so would you agree with Chrysostom? Do you relate to his awe at one of God's most incredible creations? All creation is awesome, some aspects more so than others perhaps. And at the same time all creation owes it's awesomeness to it's Creator, which it reflects to one degree or another.

Yes, I agree with Chrysostom's sentiment.

-CryptoLutheran

brinny · Jun 11, 2013

fhansen said:
Yes, so would you agree with Chrysostom? Do you relate to his awe at one of God's most incredible creations? All creation is awesome, some aspects more so than others perhaps. And at the same time all creation owes it's awesomeness to it's Creator, which it reflects to one degree or another.

God is awesome and to be awed and worshiped, not His creation. His creation is currently just a mere distant remnant of a hint of His glory, before the fall. God is not an afterthought and to be mentioned in passing. It is written that all of creation worships Him and that the trees of the field will clap their hands and the flowers will sing to His glory.

Albion · Jun 11, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
The value of humanity is found present in the blood-stained timber of the Cross. The value of man is not found in the works which we present, which are unrighteous and broken; but rather in the created purpose, restored and redeemed, in Christ who was crucified and rose again. In Christ, human nature is itself made perfect, presented flawless before God and in Christ is found the full value of humanity.

-CryptoLutheran

Whenever I encounter the freewill, works-righteousness argument, I have to wonder "What kind of good works and how many are going to be enough for me to pass muster at the judgment, especially if I can lose a lifetime of trying to do right by a slipup just before death?" Of course, none of the fans of such a theology have an answer, yet they tell US that the idea that God is in charge is gloomy and uncertain. Go figure.

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