Man's Worth

brinny · May 31, 2013

fhansen said:
He called him the Good Samaritan because he did the right thing-that's what we know, as we know that, in the Parable of the Two Sons, the son who did the right thing was considered right/good, while the one who merely said "yes", and didn't obey, was considered unjust.

which parable of the two sons is that?

fhansen · May 31, 2013

brinny said:
What He created in the beginning was "very good" but then something happened. What was that?

Already discussed. The fall didn't totally annihilate the image of God in man, which is why man still recognizes, and may demonstrate, virtues such as love, nobility, self-sacrifice, and which is why man retains a choice, even in his fallen state, and even after grace is given, between right and wrong, good and evil. I've known too many people from too many varied parts of the world doing too many acts of selflessness to summarily, naively deny this fact.

fhansen · May 31, 2013

brinny said:
which parable of the two sons is that?

Matt 21:28-32

christ disciple · May 31, 2013

fhansen said:
He called him the Good Samaritan because he did the right thing-that's what we know, as we know that, in the Parable of the Two Sons, the son who did the right thing was considered right/good, while the one who merely said "yes", and didn't obey, was considered unjust.

Are you trying to tell me that there is inherent goodness within unregenerate mankind?

I think you are referring the Parable of the Prodigal Son. What took place for this son to return home to his Father?

Was he a "good" son to begin with?

brinny · May 31, 2013

Originally Posted by brinny
What He created in the beginning was "very good" but then something happened. What was that?

fhansen said:
Already discussed. The fall didn't totally annihilate the image of God in man, which is why man still recognizes, and may demonstrate, virtues such as love, nobility, self-sacrifice, and which is why man retains a choice, even in his fallen state, and even after grace is given, between right and wrong, good and evil. I've known too many people from too many varied parts of the world doing too many acts of selflessness to summarily, naively deny this fact.

Yet God compares man's acts of righteousness to filthy rags, doesn't He? Isn't it also written that there is none righteous, not one?

Albion · May 31, 2013

christ disciple said:
Are you trying to tell me that there is inherent goodness within unregenerate mankind?

No only IS THERE, but that's supposedly the basic nature of mankind, as I read it.

TamaraLynne · May 31, 2013

fhansen said:
He called him the Good Samaritan because he did the right thing-that's what we know, as we know that, in the Parable of the Two Sons, the son who did the right thing was considered right/good, while the one who merely said "yes", and didn't obey, was considered unjust.

As a child when I heard the story of the good Samaritan...that is when I knew i had fallen in love with Jesus...the good Samaritan is my favorite bible story.

First I saw the Samaritan as Jesus i saw Jesus rescuing me..later I saw the Samaritan as other fellow Christians. Samaritans back in that day were not highly thought of...hated in fact by many.
That would have made a Jew very angry to even see a Samaritan that they themselves looked down upon as good.

fhansen · May 31, 2013

Albion said:
No only IS THERE, but that's supposedly the basic nature of mankind, as I read it.

Of course that's the basic nature of mankind. God created everything good. Fortunately for us He's not a pessimist, at least.

brinny · May 31, 2013

Originally Posted by brinny
which parable of the two sons is that?

fhansen said:
Matt 21:28-32

Thank you.

As i read it, what is emphasized here is the "repentence" of the first son that is the point here as opposed to the lack of repentence and disregard of the father from the 2nd son. Is that what you were emphasizing?

" But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you." ~Matt 21:28-31

Albion · May 31, 2013

fhansen said:
Of course that's the basic nature of mankind. God created everything good. Fortunately for us He's not a pessimist, at least.

Did you read my suggestion about you checking out Adam, Eve, and the Fall before concluding that? Our first parents were created good, but we are not them. No one since Adam and Eve has been sinless.

christ disciple · May 31, 2013

fhansen said:
Already discussed. The fall didn't totally annihilate the image of God in man, which is why man still recognizes, and may demonstrate, virtues such as love, nobility, self-sacrifice, and which is why man retains a choice, even in his fallen state, and even after grace is given, between right and wrong, good and evil. I've known too many people from too many varied parts of the world doing too many acts of selflessness to summarily, naively deny this fact.

Can you judge the motive of their heart?

I am sorry, but what does 1 Cor 13:1-8 say about this?

1 Corinthians 13:1-8

13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

The "Fruit of the Spirit" is what?

Galatians 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Who does the Spirit indwell?

christ disciple · May 31, 2013

Albion said:
No only IS THERE, but that's supposedly the basic nature of mankind, as I read it.

Would you be kind enough to clarify this statement?

brinny · May 31, 2013

Originally Posted by Albion
No only IS THERE, but that's supposedly the basic nature of mankind, as I read it.

fhansen said:
Of course that's the basic nature of mankind. God created everything good. Fortunately for us He's not a pessimist, at least.

It's quite clear that He is the very epitome of a Giver of Good News is. He provided a remedy in all of this, didn't He?

What specifically or who is the "pessimist" since the beginning, the father of lies, the deceiver?

Albion · May 31, 2013

christ disciple said:
Would you be kind enough to clarify this statement?

You asked if fhansen had said that there is inherent goodness within unregenerate mankind. I said that, as I read what he had written, it seemed to me that not only had he said there was some inherent goodness to be found there, but that he went further to insist that it is the nature of men.

christ disciple · May 31, 2013

Albion said:
You asked if fhansen had said that there is inherent goodness within unregenerate mankind. I said that, as I read what he had written, it seemed to me that not only had he said there was some inherent goodness to be found there, but that he went further to insist that it is the nature of men.

Thanks for clarifying.

I knew that was what he was inferring, but I was hoping he would clearly state that himself.

Thanks again.

Albion · May 31, 2013

christ disciple said:
Thanks for clarifying.

I knew that was what he was inferring, but I was hoping he would clearly state that himself.

Thanks again.

I'm sorry if I preempted anything, but I thought you were only pressing to see if he believed that we are good to some extent and bad to some extent--both. My impression was that he was going further than that, and it looks to me as though he confirmed it anyway, in post 28.

christ disciple · May 31, 2013

Albion said:
I'm sorry if I preempted anything, but I thought you were only pressing to see if he believed that we are good to some extent and bad to some extent--both. My impression was that he was going further than that, and it looks to me as though he confirmed it anyway, in post 28.

I realize that and that would be the heart of humanism, would it not?

The idea that man is essentially good at heart.

My position would be as scripture reveals is that man apart from God essentially is evil and it's by His Grace that He transforms us. As in

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

And

John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born, can he? 5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, You must be born again. 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

To say that there is any inherent good within man would give cause to man's ability to earn his salvation, would it not?

Albion · May 31, 2013

christ disciple said:
I realize that and that would be the heart of humanism, would it not?

The idea that man is essentially good at heart.

My position would be as scripture reveals is that man apart from God essentially is evil and it's by His Grace that He transforms us.

You're right. It's a fundamental difference between Humanism/Unitarianism/Modernism and, on the other side, traditional Christianity. But many Christians, being raised in a culture that emphasizes self-worth, etc. don't realize it.

fhansen · May 31, 2013

By becoming man, Jesus actually sanctified man, confirming man's inherit goodness, and opposing the shame that overwhelms man's ability to love himself, that causes his anger and lack of love for others. Pride and self-love are actually opposites. By dying for us Jesus confirms man's sinfulness, his need for a Savior, because, with man nothing is possible, but with God all things are possible. Bottom line of the New Covenant: Adam was wrong, man needs God in order to fulfill his destiny, in order to be who he was created to be, in order to achieve his integrity, holiness, righteousness, justice, happiness. Jesus came in order to reconcile man with God and effect just this restored relationship, this communion.

brinny · May 31, 2013

fhansen said:
By becoming man, Jesus actually sanctified man, confirming man's inherit goodness, and opposing the shame that overwhelms man's ability to love himself, that causes his anger and lack of love for others. Pride and self-love are actually opposites. By dying for us Jesus confirms man's sinfulness, his need for a Savior, because, with man nothing is possible, but with God all thongs are possible. Bottom line of the New Covenant: Adam was wrong, man needs God in order to fulfill his destiny, in order to be who he was created to be, in order to achieve his integrity, holiness, righteousness, justice, happiness. Jesus came in order to reconcile man with God and effect just this restored relationship.

Jesus, by dying on the cross, confirmed man's desperate need for a Savior. There is no righteousness except through Christ. It is Christ's righteousness we glorify, and not our own. We have none. That's why we desperately need a Savior.

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