Man's Worth

[fhansen]

I think modern Christianity sometimes focuses too much on man's unworthiness, on his worthlessness, really, and I wonder if this doesn't actually reveal our own lack of love, for ourselves and neighbor. I think early believers such as John Chrystosom, a 4th century bishop in Constantinople, had a better understanding of God's view of man, of man's innate worth, even if in potentiality:

"What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand"

 

[Shane R]

Traditional Protestantism focuses on man's unworthiness. It is true that mankind is unique in the creation. Orthodoxy finds a balance through the doctrine of theosis, or deification.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I think modern Christianity sometimes focuses too much on man's unworthiness, on his worthlessness, really, and I wonder if this doesn't actually reveal our own lack of love, for ourselves and neighbor. I think early believers such as John Chrystosom, a 4th century bishop in Constantinople, had a better understanding of God's view of man, of man's innate worth, even if in potentiality:

"What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand"

I agree with you, I think that's a subtext that's chased me away from Evangelical Protestantism is this notion that humankind is nothing but a bunch of deprave creatures.

Although I think in some cases it goes the other direction and in so doing ends up essentially reducing who God is to just a "pal".

 

[christ disciple]

I think modern Christianity sometimes focuses too much on man's unworthiness, on his worthlessness, really, and I wonder if this doesn't actually reveal our own lack of love, for ourselves and neighbor. I think early believers such as John Chrystosom, a 4th century bishop in Constantinople, had a better understanding of God's view of man, of man's innate worth, even if in potentiality:

"What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand"

? How is worth determined and by whom?


Is it not true, that worth is determined by the one who places value upon such a thing?

If one chooses not to value something, is it not then worthless?

So, whose determination matters when it comes to worth?

Ours or His?

So, self evaluation of worth apart from God , is that nothing but pride?

 

[Albion]

Believing that we are good (and therefore need no Savior) is the first sin. The OP just gave pride a more 'modern' description.

 

[TamaraLynne]

I think when we look at ourselves we should be able to see the wretched parts. But keep in mind that God sees us as very very very precious children. When we don't see our wretchedness sometimes God lets us know...but that is because he has better things for us and he does not want us blind.

I don't know of a single parent that puts a blindfold on their child as the child is learning to walk but for some reason we as his children keep putting them on thinking it is walking in faith. Once we get our eyesight we should not keep putting that blindfold on.

We do this in many areas. Sometimes we are taught to put the blindfold on.

 

[christ disciple]

I think when we look at ourselves we should be able to see the wretched parts. But keep in mind that God sees us as very very very precious children. When we don't see our wretchedness sometimes God lets us know...but that is because he has better things for us and he does not want us blind.

I don't know of a single parent that puts a blindfold on their child as the child is learning to walk but for some reason we as his children keep putting them on thinking it is walking in faith. Once we get our eyesight we should not keep putting that blindfold on.

We do this in many areas. Sometimes we are taught to put the blindfold on.

In other words, be sober minded?

 

[fhansen]

Believing that we are good (and therefore need no Savior) is the first sin. The OP just gave pride a more 'modern' description.

God created everything, and He creates nothing that isn't good-or else He wouldn't be goodness Himself. I think a distinction must be made between man's innate goodness, especially considering his being made in the image of God, and man's falleness, which obscures that image without removing it altogether, and without erasing Gods love for and the value He holds for man. The purpose of the Atonement is to drive home both points: man's sinfulness and God's uncompromising love for him, drawing us away from evil and to the goodness alone that He created us for. To over-emphasize man's worthlessness is to go beyond God's own mind on the matter, bordering on a false humility and priggishness, really, and not consonant with the gospel IMO.

 

[christ disciple]

God created everything, and He creates nothing that isn't good-or else He wouldn't be goodness Himself. I think a distinction must be made between man's innate goodness, especially considering his being made in the image of God, and man's falleness, which obscures that image without removing it altogether, and without erasing Gods love for and the value He holds for man. The purpose of the Atonement is to drive home both points: man's sinfulness and God's uncompromising love for him, drawing us away from evil and to the goodness alone that He created us for. To over-emphasize man's worthlessness is to go beyond God's own mind on the matter, bordering on a false humility and priggishness, really, and not consonant with the gospel IMO.

Tell me what does God say about the condition of man?

Jeremiah 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 3:10-18

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[fhansen]

Tell me what does God say about the condition of man?

Jeremiah 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 3:10-18

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Yes, these are meant to make us understand man's depravity without God. Man's righteousness depends wholly on Him, and ultimately on relationship with/communion with Him. "Apart from Me you can do nothing". Man has a choice between remaining in sin or turning to, and remaining in, Christ. But to also fail to see the image of God which remains in all men, and which reveals itself from time to time in believers and unbelievers alike, as per the Good Samaritan, for example, is to deny the truth and goodness which Jesus died for, and to hold a stunted and naive view of humanity in any case. Confusing healthy self-love with pride is part of the problem.

 

[Albion]

God created everything, and He creates nothing that isn't good-or else He wouldn't be goodness Himself.

I think you missed that part about the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Albion]

I think when we look at ourselves we should be able to see the wretched parts. But keep in mind that God sees us as very very very precious children.

Obviously so, or he would not have provided a Savior, let alone send his own Son.

The thing is that we have to recognize both of these truisms about man--fallen, but yet precious in His sight. I was glad to see that you correctly included both in your comments above.

 

[christ disciple]

Yes, these are meant to make us understand man's depravity without God. Man's righteousness depends wholly on Him, and ultimately on relationship with/communion with Him. "Apart from Me you can do nothing". Man has a choice between remaining in sin or turning to, and remaining in, Christ. But to also fail to see the image of God which remains in all men, and which reveals itself from time to time in believers and unbelievers alike, as per the Good Samaritan, for example, is to deny the truth and goodness which Jesus died for, and to hold a stunted and naive view of humanity in any case.

Matthew 19:17

17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


As for the image of God, that is restored upon rebirth.

As for the "Good "Samaritan", What do you think made him "Good"?

Would it not be because he was a genuine believer in God as opposed to the hypocritical do gooders (the Pharisees)?

 

[fhansen]

Matthew 19:17

17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


As for the image of God, that is restored upon rebirth.

As for the "Good "Samaritan", What do you think made him "Good"?

Would it not be because he was a genuine believer in God as opposed to the hypocritical do gooders (the Pharisees)?

It doesn't mention his relationship with God.

 

[fhansen]

I think you missed that part about the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

I think you must have selectively read my posts. Seems to be a common problem with scripture reading, too.

 

[christ disciple]

It doesn't mention his relationship with God.

Who is telling the parable?

For what purpose?

What then can we deduce?

Why did He not then say the "bad" Samaritan or just Samaritan?

 

[fhansen]

Matthew 19:1717 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

So from that single text would you determine that Jesus isn't good?

As for the image of God, that is restored upon rebirth.

As for the "Good "Samaritan", What do you think made him "Good"?

Would it not be because he was a genuine believer in God as opposed to the hypocritical do gooders (the Pharisees)?

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. Gen 1:17-31

 

[christ disciple]

So from that single text you'd decided that Jesus isn't good?

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”



29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. Gen 1:17-31

Yes, later totally corrupted by sin.

 

[brinny]

God created everything, and He creates nothing that isn't good-or else He wouldn't be goodness Himself. I think a distinction must be made between man's innate goodness, especially considering his being made in the image of God, and man's falleness, which obscures that image without removing it altogether, and without erasing Gods love for and the value He holds for man. The purpose of the Atonement is to drive home both points: man's sinfulness and God's uncompromising love for him, drawing us away from evil and to the goodness alone that He created us for. To over-emphasize man's worthlessness is to go beyond God's own mind on the matter, bordering on a false humility and priggishness, really, and not consonant with the gospel IMO.

What He created in the beginning was "very good" but then something happened. What was that?

 

[fhansen]

Who is telling the parable?

For what purpose?

What then can we deduce?

Why did He not then say the "bad" Samaritan or just Samaritan?

He called him the Good Samaritan because he did the right thing-that's what we know, as we know that, in the Parable of the Two Sons, the son who did the right thing was considered right/good, while the one who merely said "yes", and didn't obey, was considered unjust.