Manischewitz Kosher 4 Gentiles?!?

[mfaust]

Honestly I think that clip could apply to this whole discussion.

 

[Jerushabelle]

No, I'm not being unjust. Everyone has listened to you and each has given you their pov. It's fine to think differently, it's not fine to keep on when you differ. There comes a place where sharing ends and the desire to prove oneself correct comes in - that's the time to stop, with the agreement to disagree.
And you don't have to be in opposition to Paul's teachings, I'm not completely. But he doesn't have final say over things when there is a difference between Torah and/or Yeshua.

This has nothing to do with my POV or me proving myself correct. This is about a fundamental Christian truth being undermined by Jewish tradition. Jewish identity is one thing and I'm all for it but the baggage containing the "I have to or I'm not being obedient" regarding the dietary law regardless of whether I am Jew or Gentile is dismissive of all that Yeshua did for us. What is it that's got you riled so, that I'm not half a Christian, weakminded and maleable? And by that I'm not saying that you are but Sister, I don't look at Scripture (God's breathed word) and determine which parts of it I'm going to accept which means that Paul's words are God's words and that being the case he most certainly does have the final say since those words came after Torah and after Yeshua and Paul was Yeshua's hand-picked man.

In what way is telling me that I don't understand Scripture "agreeing to disagree"?

Consider this: if you don't keep the law, all of the law, then you are breaking the law, all of the law. That's why it's okay to be dietary observant or not because in Yeshua we can or not as conscience allows.

 

[mfaust]

The way I see it… even IF all food have been given the OK (which I am not convinced of) I honestly feel that our Father had a pretty good reason to declare certain foods clean and others not for the Jews. And quite frankly from what I know of the foods he has declared unclean, I can see why. The idea of many of those animals being ingested (while they may serve a purpose on this earth) is revolting. Even when I was an atheist, I "kept kosher". Not because I was commanded to, but because it actually makes sense to me.

And for Messianics who feel the need to keep Kosher, even if it is not salvific, is it so bad? Really? Ok… so all food is possibly considered clean. That doesn't mean it should be eaten anyway. I mean… some of those foods may be considered "delicacies" or staples of a typical diet, but I am sorry… I see keeping kosher as something relatively intelligent even if we don't have to do it.

Just my 02 cents.

 

[Henaynei]

For my family keeping is a fast of obedience to The Master of the Universe and an act of loving gratitude to the same.

 

[yedida]

For my family keeping is a fast of obedience to The Master of the Universe and an act of loving gratitude to the same.

 

[mfaust]

For my family keeping is a fast of obedience to The Master of the Universe and an act of loving gratitude to the same.

Her reason is better than mine... :o

and an act of loving gratitude to the same.

This...

 

[Jerushabelle]

For my family keeping is a fast of obedience to The Master of the Universe and an act of loving gratitude to the same.

That is your right and conscience, not mine. It doesn't mean you are wrong but it also doesn't mean that I'm wrong either or unsaved or paganistic or non-Messianic because I don't follow all the dietary law.

 

[Henaynei]

In what way is telling me that I don't understand Scripture "agreeing to disagree"?

because you understand sections of the Scripture differently than some others and since neither side is convinced to change sides after *extensive* discussion, "agreeing to disagree" is a path seeking peace.

Consider this: if you don't keep the law, all of the law, then you are breaking the law, all of the law. That's why it's okay to be dietary observant or not because in Yeshua we can or not as conscience allows.

You and I and everyone else are all indebted to the whole Law because we have ALL broken AT LEAST one. Man's conscience can be mis-taught, mis-informed, seared or just plain wrong. If man depended on conscience alone to direct his behavior we would all be living in a living h311. This is why we need G-d's written Instructions. ONLY His Ways and His Thoughts and Intents of heart are pure and righteous.
But, that aside. No one here, except you, has said anything about obedience to dietary or any other Laws as salvific. And you, yourself said above "it's okay to be dietary observant or not."
So, now we see that you actually agree with us, and we agree with you. If one calls themselves Messianic it is NOT the same as calling themselves Christian any more than calling themselves Baptist is the same as calling themselves Catholic. With each term comes a claim to membership in a specific community. In the case of Messianic and Christian both are members of the Body of Messiah. Each has a different paradigm from which they approach service and obedience. Christians do so from a Greek paradigm and Messianics do so from a Jewish paradigm. Often neither is tolerant or blesses the other's approach but castigated it instead, or worse takes on the title of the other and then insists on telling them what that community has wrong and how those who hold no allegiance to the paradigm of that community must, nevertheless, accorded all the "rights, privileges and standings" accorded to those who do hold such allegiance. I know that my POV is not PC, but ...
Let there be peace.

 

[Jerushabelle]

LOL
what is possibly blasphemous about that?

Destiny as opposed to God's intention for one thing. The comparison of God with signs of the Western and Chinese Zodiac for another. The mention of the One True God, His Son Jesus/Yeshua in comparison to Greek or Roman gods in addition to Islam and Muhammadism. It's a testament to just how messed up God's people have become. I don't have a problem with lightheartedly calling something a Jewbelation if indeed it is a Jewish celebration of sorts but how can dishonoring God in this fashion be any sort of something for Jews to celebrate. I assume these brewmakers aren't faithful Jews. My comment regarding it being conceived in San Francisco, the Sodom and Gomorrah that it has become, was not made lightly.

 

[Jerushabelle]

because you understand sections of the Scripture differently than some others and since neither side is convinced to change sides after *extensive* discussion, "agreeing to disagree" is a path seeking peace.
You and I and everyone else are all indebted to the whole Law because we have ALL broken AT LEAST one. Man's conscience can be mis-taught, mis-informed, seared or just plain wrong. If man depended on conscience alone to direct his behavior we would all be living in a living h311. This is why we need G-d's written Instructions. ONLY His Ways and His Thoughts and Intents of heart are pure and righteous.
But, that aside. No one here, except you, has said anything about obedience to dietary or any other Laws as salvific. And you, yourself said above "it's okay to be dietary observant or not."
So, now we see that you actually agree with us, and we agree with you. If one calls themselves Messianic it is NOT the same as calling themselves Christian any more than calling themselves Baptist is the same as calling themselves Catholic. With each term comes a claim to membership in a specific community. In the case of Messianic and Christian both are members of the Body of Messiah. Each has a different paradigm from which they approach service and obedience. Christians do so from a Greek paradigm and Messianics do so from a Jewish paradigm. Often neither is tolerant or blesses the other's approach but castigated it instead, or worse takes on the title of the other and then insists on telling them what that community has wrong and how those who hold no allegiance to the paradigm of that community must, nevertheless, accorded all the "rights, privileges and standings" accorded to those who do hold such allegiance. I know that my POV is not PC, but ...
Let there be peace.

Neither you or I or anyone believing in Yeshua are indebted to the law. We are indebted to Yeshua for being obedient to God's will. I wasn't speaking of conscience in terms of what man thinks but rather in terms of what God thinks and convicts us of. It is true that God's law is there for us to know what is good and what is evil in God's eyes.

No one has implied that God's word is wrong, eh? Go back and re-read.

No, we don't see that we agree. What we see is that not only do we continue to disagree with each other but you seem to disagree with God through Peter: " Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name."

God's word is not subject to man's paradigms. IMHO, I am one with you and everyone else who believes in Jesus/Yeshua. I can relate to the Greek influence on the faith every bit as much as I can relate to the Jewish influence. One is no more correct than the other...not in Yeshua. There is more than enough suffering coming to Christians from the outside. There is no need for Brothers and Sisters to beat each other up as well or for one to step on another.

I'm all for peace and a place to fellowship in God's truth. I chose this place. Am I welcome or not?

 

[Jerushabelle]

I've said my peace. Am I welcome here or not? You call me Sister so I'm thinking maybe you're warming up to me. Speak plainly, please. I've been in defense mode for a very long time. My arm is tired and I'd like to put down my sword for awhile.

 

[mfaust]

I've said my peace. Am I welcome here or not? You call me Sister so I'm thinking maybe you're warming up to me. Speak plainly, please. I've been in defense mode for a very long time. My arm is tired and I'd like to put down my sword for awhile.

I know you were not asking me, but I consider you welcome.

And again... just to lighten the mood...
Then We Have An Accord? - YouTube

 

[Jerushabelle]

Lighten up - Jewbelation is a take off spelling on jubilation - with the connotation of celebration. And not a Jewish festival.
It is a secular product made by Jews who are listing a list of all the "12s" they can think of as part of their marketing their product made with 12 ingredients.

You and I and everyone you know name/honor pagan gods every time we name the day of the week or month, and most stars and constellations.

Can we afford to be quite that light?
Actually, I try very hard not to relate to pagan influences. Lots of times I flub up and there are some things I can't change such as what everyone has agreed to in terms of days of the week, stars, etc. I don't seek out horoscope predictions and the like. I make an effort.

 

[Jerushabelle]

I know you were not asking me, but I consider you welcome.

And again... just to lighten the mood...
Then We Have An Accord? - YouTube

LOL Thank you! Shalom Brother!

 

[Henaynei]

I've said my peace. Am I welcome here or not? You call me Sister so I'm thinking maybe you're warming up to me. Speak plainly, please. I've been in defense mode for a very long time. My arm is tired and I'd like to put down my sword for awhile.

I'm not whom you should ask. That would be the mods. You have chosen an icon that according to board rules strictly limits your activity and posting in this section of the CF fora. Just as our icons thusly limit us in most sections outside of this one.

You are a co-member of the Body of Messiah and thus you remain our sister, always.

 

[Lulav]

because you understand sections of the Scripture differently than some others and since neither side is convinced to change sides after *extensive* discussion, "agreeing to disagree" is a path seeking peace.
You and I and everyone else are all indebted to the whole Law because we have ALL broken AT LEAST one. Man's conscience can be mis-taught, mis-informed, seared or just plain wrong. If man depended on conscience alone to direct his behavior we would all be living in a living h311. This is why we need G-d's written Instructions. ONLY His Ways and His Thoughts and Intents of heart are pure and righteous.
But, that aside. No one here, except you, has said anything about obedience to dietary or any other Laws as salvific. And you, yourself said above "it's okay to be dietary observant or not."
So, now we see that you actually agree with us, and we agree with you. If one calls themselves Messianic it is NOT the same as calling themselves Christian any more than calling themselves Baptist is the same as calling themselves Catholic. With each term comes a claim to membership in a specific community. In the case of Messianic and Christian both are members of the Body of Messiah. Each has a different paradigm from which they approach service and obedience. Christians do so from a Greek paradigm and Messianics do so from a Jewish paradigm. Often neither is tolerant or blesses the other's approach but castigated it instead, or worse takes on the title of the other and then insists on telling them what that community has wrong and how those who hold no allegiance to the paradigm of that community must, nevertheless, accorded all the "rights, privileges and standings" accorded to those who do hold such allegiance. I know that my POV is not PC, but ...
Let there be peace.

 

[Lulav]

Lighten up - Jewbelation is a take off spelling on jubilation - with the connotation of celebration. And not a Jewish festival.
It is a secular product made by Jews who are listing a list of all the "12s" they can think of as part of their marketing their product made with 12 ingredients.

You and I and everyone you know name/honor pagan gods every time we name the day of the week or month, and most stars and constellations.

I didn't notice the other things mention but I was taken aback when I saw one of their 'brews' named 'Messiah Bold'. (maybe the Catholics will like that one? )

 

[Jerushabelle]

I'm not whom you should ask. That would be the mods. You have chosen an icon that according to board rules strictly limits your activity and posting in this section of the CF fora. Just as our icons thusly limit us in most sections outside of this one.

I have approached them about correcting that. Some Messianics choose to identify with the cross.

You are a co-member of the Body of Messiah and thus you remain our sister, always.

Thank you! I trust then that it will not be suggested again by anyone here that I heave off (more pirate speak) to another forum especially since Sister Lulav gave you a thumbs up.

 

[Henaynei]

I have approached them about correcting that. Some Messianics choose to identify with the cross.

Thank you! I trust then that it will not be suggested again by anyone here that I heave off (more pirate speak) to another forum especially since Sister Lulav gave you a thumbs up.

Doesn't mean I won't pull my hair out

 

[The Templar]

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