Manfully to fight under His Banner

[pmcleanj]

From the Book of Common Prayer Baptism service (language of the 1662 edition):

I sign you with the Sign of the Cross, in token that you should not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ Crucified, manfully to fight under His banner against sin, the world, and the devil; and continue Christ's faithful soldier and servant until your life's end.

When I was baptized as a young woman, tiny pink-glad girl babies and slender young co-eds and little girls in knee-socks were all being exhorted to fight "manfully" for Christ, and no-one batted an eye at the incongruity.

My biggest irritation is that she looks too severe. A woman in the ministry ought to look proud of being a woman, rather than dressing like a man, IMO.
...
I would be less irritated if she let her hair grow out. Frankly she looks bad on TV to me. Mostly this is media-centric, rather than personal. Her voice is sure, her idea's firm, but her whole look screams: "I feel like I'm doing the job of a man."
Now, I firmly believe that she is doing the job God has called her to--regardless of her Gender--and that look just doesn't help her. I believe in women in the ministry because I believe Scripture teaches that women should be in the ministry, not because of equal rights.

Now Timothy tells us that TEC's Presiding Bishop dresses "manly". Can we women be "manful" without being "manly"?

Timothy, I don't know what to say to your concerns about the PB's appearance other than it seems to reflect our society's need to place a lot of importance on people's looks. Is that right or wrong? I would hope that we would be able to listen to people's ideas and see them as beautiful people of God regardless of their looks, but I guess the animal instinct in us to judge people by their looks still lingers no matter how high-minded we think we've become.

There also seems to be some gender stuff in what you're saying, what looks "womanly" and what looks "manly" -- and that's a whole other debate as well.

Well, why not discuss it. Timothy, you know I love you, so don't take it wrongly that I ask you to look at your instinctive response more deeply. I'm engaged by your assessment of TEC's PB's fashion-sense, because in that arena I'm another one of the "soldiers in the field", and you (I believe) are an onlooker. Remember, I started out in Engineering at a time when human rights legislation did not address sexual inequalities, and it was perfectly acceptable for an employer to say "we don't hire women for engineering roles". Women always knew that they were being allowed their social role on sufferance. Self presentation was -- and is still -- a means of manipulating your environment to evoke a particular response from a particular audience.

Now, I wear my hair and skirts long, with Gibson-girl style blouses and Dior-style suits, and the only bifurcated garments I wear outside the dance studio are my nomex coveralls for site visits. But that's an effective choice for me for the particular boardrooms that I pursue my work-a-day battles in. I choose to take frank advantage of oil-industry male professionals of my own age group, who are made uncomfortable by the fact that I'm female by *being* feminine, and choosing a feminine archetype that they can't blow off (Cliche strict English teacher, as opposed to "floozy" or "tomboy"). But I have rare hard-edged specialized Engineering skills that get me through the door long enough to capitalize on the image I have chosen, and given my place and time I never had the option of choosing to avoid the fight by fitting in.

Other women of my generation fought the fight by wearing jeans and a dirty t-shirt to work and swearing a blue streak like a rigger, to prove that they weren't girly-girls who would threaten the status quo -- and then changed the status quo from the inside because they too, despite their aggressive adoption of pseudo-protective colouration, lacked the option of truly fitting in.

Younger women coming into the industry today in the twenty-first century may choose to wear cords, shirt, pull-over school sweater and a sports jacket -- exactly like the young men. More power to them! -- people see them as engineers first and don't bother to distinguish that their look is unisex. I'm just glad that we -- feminine engineers like me and rough-necked women like my opposites -- changed industry's perception of our unsuitability for the role.

I still use (and adjust) my self-presentation for special circumstances. For example, I don't typically wear any makeup. But, if I have to make a presentation where I need to change the subliminal assumption that professional women are frumpy in order to achieve a goal (high-school mentoring programmes would be one example) I am perfectly capable of turning out a highly-polished job of fashionable street makeup.

So, what is TEC's PB achieving by the way she presents herself, and whom is she trying to affect with that presentation? I don't know -- but it may well be working for her agenda and in the situation where she is the soldier in the field, and the rest of us are all onlookers.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I'm also an engineer, but I think perhaps too much of a pragmatist. I never feel the need to make too much of a point. I just fit in as I am. They can take it or leave it, but to be perfectly honest, I have experienced no discrimination.

 

[Timothy]

Personally, my respect for women in the clergy is VERY high. I've worked with women priests, women deacons, women everything. I'm talking here about media image rather than day to day image, I have no idea what Schori comes across as in day to day image, but media is my father's field of profession, and thus one area I feel strongly about.
The main problem with it is that to me--as an englishman--is that her TV image from dress and style and her words clash strongly. Her words stress the ministry of all believers in all areas of ministry, but her image stresses that she's trying to fit in to a male-dominated world. Maybe in America, she just looks like any professional in any field, I'm not sure, but to me, her image comes across as insecure, and I don't like seeing that. Now you're right, I'm just an onlooker, however I'm an onlooker who is very concerned about how the Anglican church appears to the rest of the world through it's media image.
Part of it is, I suspect, the USA's heritage from the ordination of women. The rest of us (the UK and Canada amongst others) made the decision to ordain women as a church in Synod, whether the USA went ahead and ordained, then made the decision that it was okay as they couldn't stop the women from functioning as priests. Her image looks insecure, and I personally don't like it. I am quite willing to accept the possibility (in fact even probability) that I am wrong, however...

 

[higgs2]

I don't see her as insecure at all. I think she looks just great, is attractive and professional, and has a lovely and authoritative voice. I think she is who she is.

Women in leadership usually do get more scrutiny about their appearance than men do. Like, Hillary Clinton and Condi Rice for example. @@ <---- eyes rolling.

 

[Finella]

I'm wondering, Timothy, if your reaction isn't just due to your experience with the media, but also due to your English culture. The PB doesn't look that "mannish" to me at all, I've seen many women who look far less feminine than she does. And the PB also appears to be very confident in her posture, voice, and tone. Actually, after reading your assessment of her I was surprised at how warm and feminine she seemed.

The fact is, though, we are in a male-dominated world. How we respond to that in our dress and action is also partly determined by how the world responds to us. As Pamela has pointed out, what we choose to wear is as much about what we need to accomplish in relationship with others as it is about our internal, subconscious needs to be ourselves and yet accepted by others. When men hold the power, we as women have to find a way to present ourselves so that men will respect us and yet also see us as individual persons. I guess I'm fortunate in my field that it is dominated by women (88% are women), but I wonder how that will work out when I get into academia in a much more male-dominated environment.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I'm wondering, Timothy, if your reaction isn't just due to your experience with the media, but also due to your English culture. The PB doesn't look that "mannish" to me at all, I've seen many women who look far less feminine than she does. And the PB also appears to be very confident in her posture, voice, and tone. Actually, after reading your assessment of her I was surprised at how warm and feminine she seemed.

The fact is, though, we are in a male-dominated world. How we respond to that in our dress and action is also partly determined by how the world responds to us. As Pamela has pointed out, what we choose to wear is as much about what we need to accomplish in relationship with others as it is about our internal, subconscious needs to be ourselves and yet accepted by others. When men hold the power, we as women have to find a way to present ourselves so that men will respect us and yet also see us as individual persons. I guess I'm fortunate in my field that it is dominated by women (88% are women), but I wonder how that will work out when I get into academia in a much more male-dominated environment.

Not sure if it has anything to do with Britishness or not, but the few times that I have seen recordings of the PB, I would have said that she is quite mannish - not in an androgenous way, but something that she seems to have cultivated.

Her voice is rather deep, and it seems artificially so (I always think she is about to gag when I hear her speak), and her hair is short (not that that is diagnostic in any way). I remember thinking when I saw her at her installation that she looked very masculine in her round-the-world chasuble - I think perhaps because she was very flat fronted (don't know if this is natural for her or not). Saying that, I can't imagine that a chasuble is ever going to be flattering to the female form.

I'm not a great student of the PB, and not particularly interested in the issues that surround her, but the shallow impressions that I have of the fleeting times I have seen her (via the media), the impression that I have of her is one of a cultivated masculinisation.

I have come across plenty of female 'captains of industry' and they have been feminine enough - a credit to the fairer sex. I have not seen an example of the PB in real life.

 

[Finella]

I do think culture has a role to play. For instance, I think English uniforms for certain jobs (nurses, for instance) are much more distinguishable for women in England than they are in the US, where women and men wear basically the same kinds of clothes (scrubs, rather than a dress in England). Same for police uniforms. I am also amazed by how many uniformed women (flight attendants, for example) wear pumps (heeled shoes) all day, whereas I don't think American women do so in nearly as high a proportion. I think there's more latitude in the US for women to be as "girly" or as androgynous as they wish.

As I said in the original thread, I knew a priest who was very feminine, perfect hair and manicured nails and tailored suits and skirts, and parishioners complained that she was too focused on her appearance. She looked professional, really, but the congregation was used to clergy who were more austere in their appearance and spiritual outlook. Obviously a balance is in order, but local and cultural norms also play a role in how people are viewed. I'm sure people in other countries who are used to women wearing skirts all the time would find the PB's appearance troubling as well.

I guess I'm just saying that, from my perspective as an American, I think her voice and her appearance are quite natural and don't feel cultivated or "put on" in any way. But I can understand that from people outside of this culture why she would be seen as such.

 

[Colabomb]

scrutiny may also come because she is controversial.

I don't see her necessarily as mannish. I see her (if you want honesty) as silly.

I think the first Female PB should have been a bit less..... outstanding. And while I agree with female ordination I don't think all of ecusa was ready for a woman PB.

So perhaps issues such as these also affect the way she is seen.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I do think culture has a role to play. For instance, I think English uniforms for certain jobs (nurses, for instance) are much more distinguishable for women in England than they are in the US, where women and men wear basically the same kinds of clothes (scrubs, rather than a dress in England). Same for police uniforms. I am also amazed by how many uniformed women (flight attendants, for example) wear pumps (heeled shoes) all day, whereas I don't think American women do so in nearly as high a proportion. I think there's more latitude in the US for women to be as "girly" or as androgynous as they wish.

As I said in the original thread, I knew a priest who was very feminine, perfect hair and manicured nails and tailored suits and skirts, and parishioners complained that she was too focused on her appearance. She looked professional, really, but the congregation was used to clergy who were more austere in their appearance and spiritual outlook. Obviously a balance is in order, but local and cultural norms also play a role in how people are viewed. I'm sure people in other countries who are used to women wearing skirts all the time would find the PB's appearance troubling as well.

I guess I'm just saying that, from my perspective as an American, I think her voice and her appearance are quite natural and don't feel cultivated or "put on" in any way. But I can understand that from people outside of this culture why she would be seen as such.

It's unusual for nurses to wear dresses here in the UK. I'm sure it's available as a choice, but most nurses wear blue trousers and a polo shirt according to their trust. The same uniform applies to men and women. But neither sex wears 'scrubs' as a choice.

Police uniforms are also fairly indistinguishable - the only difference would be the helmet for men, versus the little hat for women. Other than that, they wear the same fluorescent gear and bulletproof vest.

 

[norbie]

I strongly have to agree with SirTimothy, here in Australia, in the Newcastle Anglican Diocese is the same story, the majority of our Women Priest are very "Butch", like very short Hair and male Clothes.
And it's not just in Clergy, but this is an other Thread.
This Lady Bishop is maybe very good in her 'calling', but she is deffently not proud to be a Female, to be more feminine. And this IS sad, because our Women should think like 'look what we have archived as femine Women, without copying men'.
I think Women's Lib. should be re-invented, even in the Clergy.
Norbie

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Interesting conversation. I have to say there is a lot of pressure (or I feel a lot of pressure) on women not to appear to be attracting any attention to their female body. It is hard to get used to, in what has been traditionally a male field. I know that I do make a conscious effort not to show too many curves in the choices of clothing I wear. I have got fairly long hair and occasionally wonder if it is 'proper' for an ordinand to have hair that people admire. I don't like wearing too much 'flash' - such as dangly earrings. My consideration of these things really revolves around wanting to not cause others to be distracted by 'fluff'. That means I do sometimes sacrifice my own individual preferences. I don't find this easy.

 

[Finella]

Naomi -- Obviously you live there, and know better than I do. But from my stints living in the UK on occassion, I still think, in general, uniformed women tend to dress in clothing that is distinguishingly different than for men in the same job. Maybe I'm just picking up on the way UK society makes these differences, it's possible the US society does the same but I don't notice it because I'm used to it.

Norbie, I don't know what to say. Feminism is not about just being like men, it's about being what women want to be regardless of what people expect them to be. They can be traditionally feminine, or feminine in a new way. But this doesn't mean they aren't proud to be women. I agree that women shouldn't just copy men, but the PBs appearance shouldn't mean that she is "copying" men -- there's far more to being a woman than how she looks, agreed?

 

[norbie]

Naomi -- Obviously you live there, and know better than I do. But from my stints living in the UK on occassion, I still think, in general, uniformed women tend to dress in clothing that is distinguishingly different than for men in the same job. Maybe I'm just picking up on the way UK society makes these differences, it's possible the US society does the same but I don't notice it because I'm used to it.

Norbie, I don't know what to say. Feminism is not about just being like men, it's about being what women want to be regardless of what people expect them to be. They can be traditionally feminine, or feminine in a new way. But this doesn't mean they aren't proud to be women. I agree that women shouldn't just copy men, but the PBs appearance shouldn't mean that she is "copying" men -- there's far more to being a woman than how she looks, agreed?

agreed! There is more to a woman then her looks. But as sad as it sounds the reality is when Women take up a man job like Fitter & Turner, or Truck Driver, the change.
We have the Coal Mines and lot of Women do work in the above jobs. And I only know one Lady who comes home and change in something feminine like a skirt and blouse or a dress.
I agree this is not everything but why not be proud to be femine and show it. And special for Clergy I would say that femine clothing is much more modest then pants. You know what I try to say is for example to bend over, you are much more modest in skirts and dresses, also no "big W" in front.
So I say 'Girls be proud of your Feminity and Show it'.
I agree true Feminity comes from inside but this doesn't mean to neglect the outside.
Norbie

 

[higgs2]

Well, many of you couldn't stand her: http://www.godweb.org/catwalkgod.htm if I recall correctly. So what should a female priest look like? It would seem that there is a very narrow set of rules for their appearance, what are they?

 

[norbie]

Well, many of you couldn't stand her: http://www.godweb.org/catwalkgod.htm if I recall correctly. So what should a female priest look like? It would seem that there is a very narrow set of rules for their appearance, what are they?

Well I believe this is very good. She can have a great influence in the Fashion World and maybe she will get the message through, to dress modest doesn't mean you don't have to be fashionable.
You ask what a fem. Priest should look like?
How about a straight black skirt, deffently below the Knee and a white Blouse or Shirt. I think that's o.k. and everybody will respect her.
Norbie

 

[higgs2]

Well I believe this is very good. She can have a great influence in the Fashion World and maybe she will get the message through, to dress modest doesn't mean you don't have to be fashionable.
You ask what a fem. Priest should look like?
How about a straight black skirt, deffently below the Knee and a white Blouse or Shirt. I think that's o.k. and everybody will respect her.
Norbie

What should she wear on her legs? What kind of shoes should she wear? How about her hairdo? WHat if she prefers pants?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

It's a fact of life that female public figures get comments about their appearance - and mostly negative comments at that. I don't think there is anything that the PB needs to take personally - she's not the only one in this situation.

Considering what many male priests wear, I don't think anyone should be criticising what women priests wear. It seems that it's the women who are dressed more appropriately

 

[norbie]

What should she wear on her legs? What kind of shoes should she wear? How about her hairdo? WHat if she prefers pants?

I am sorry, I wasn't going personal in this matter. It was only a very general answer to the Question 'What should she wear?'
Modesty is the Keyword not only for a Priest, but for every Women. If she likes Pants, well it's her choice. But I will never understand WHY a Women want to wear Pants when so many beautyful and sweet dresses and skirt are there for her. Why immidate Men's Clothes?
Norbie

 

[Timothy]

I don't object to women wearing pants/trousers, not one bit. My best friends all do, and it doesn't make them look any less feminine. I've seen feminine looking women who dress in smart business suits. Take a look at my favourite TV show (Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip) at how the actress who portray's Jordan McDeere looks and see what I mean. In the ministry, well in this same interview, the lady who was doing the interviewing was wearing a suit, but her bearing was feminine and her look was feminine, whether the PB (to me) didn't.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I hope she wears pants