Manasseh & Ephraim - the two Gentile houses of Israel?

[ananda]

As it is written, Jacob embraces his two grandsons as his own: "And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Gen 48:5

We also learn from Torah that they were sons of a Gentile woman: "And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him. And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh ... And the name of the second called he Ephraim" Gen 41:50-52 cf Gen 46:20

Since many Jewish groups recognize matrilineal descent, are these two tribes of Israel considered Gentile sojourners with Israel?

 

[pat34lee]

As it is written, Jacob embraces his two grandsons as his own: "And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Gen 48:5

We also learn from Torah that they were sons of a Gentile woman: "And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him. And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh ... And the name of the second called he Ephraim" Gen 41:50-52 cf Gen 46:20

Since many Jewish groups recognize matrilineal descent, are these two tribes of Israel considered Gentile sojourners with Israel?

Matrilineal descent was not counted until sometime during or after the Babylonian exile (another tradition borrowed from the pagans). Before that, tribal affiliation was from the father.

 

[Shimshon]

If your going to go by Judaism your going to have to believe that 1) Asenath coverted, according to the apocryphal book of Joseph and Asenath, and/or 2) that Asenath was actually the daughter of Dinah, when she was raped by Shechem.

This is how modern Judaism views the 'Jewishness' of Ephraim and Manasseh. Mom was a convert, or was Jewish to begin with.

Matrilineal descent was not counted until sometime during or after the Babylonian exile (another tradition borrowed from the pagans). Before that, tribal affiliation was from the father.

Do you have any difinative documentation of this? I tend to agree, as modern Judaism on one hand tends to project it's theology back to the beginnings (i.e. oral Torah from Mt. Sinai), then on the other tends to state they evolve traditions throughout time (Talmud). You can't have it both ways. Either Judaism was/is matrilineal, or it wasn't at one time, and now is. It can't have been from the beginning yet evolved that way over time. Which is it?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If your going to go by Judaism your going to have to believe that 1) Asenath coverted, according to the apocryphal book of Joseph and Asenath, and/or 2) that Asenath was actually the daughter of Dinah, when she was raped by Shechem.

This is how modern Judaism views the 'Jewishness' of Ephraim and Manasseh. Mom was a convert, or was Jewish to begin with.

... modern Judaism on one hand tends to project it's theology back to the beginnings (i.e. oral Torah from Mt. Sinai), then on the other tends to state they evolve traditions throughout time (Talmud). You can't have it both ways. Either Judaism was/is matrilineal, or it wasn't at one time, and now is. It can't have been from the beginning yet evolved that way over time. Which is it?

So true. As said elsewhere, there's no escaping the fact that there was clear Gentile heritage that occurred.....

 

[Shimshon]

So true. As said elsewhere, there's no escaping the fact that there was clear Gentile heritage that occurred.....

I've heard many rabbi's teach that the Jewish nation was formed at Mount Sinai. Before that, they were only descendants of a common father, Jacob. They state that when standing at Mount Sinai, they were chosen and appointed a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, and so became a people.

In other words, at that moment everyone standing there—including Zipporah, Moses’ wife; including even Moses himself—all became Jewish.

A nation born in a day.

But as you stated, it is clear that modern Judaism has to have come to terms with the 'gentile heritage' that occured....as you say. Usually it's to make the mother Jewish according to tradition in some way.

 

[Lulav]

My opinion

• Asenath was the daughter of a pagan priest and was therefore pagan and remained so.

• Joseph was not a practicing Jew in Egypt. He did however believe in the one G-d of Israel but to be second in command we don't know what else he believed after this happened. He lived in Egypt for 103 years which made him basically Egyptian, through and through.

• By the time they get to the mountain it is Joseph's great grandchildren which are there. While in Egypt though, being the children of Joseph, did they live with the Hebrews or Egyptians?

• Perhaps those who were the 'strangers' that joined them in fleeing Egypt were none other than the grandchildren of Joseph.

• At least Mose's wife was related through Abraham.

Bottom line, I believe Israel as a nation became so at the foot of the mountain when they agreed to the terms of being the people of G-d and he being their only G-d. It doesn't matter what they were before, once they take that oath, that is who they are. If they turn to idolatry, Tribal born or not, they aren't.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

As it is written, Jacob embraces his two grandsons as his own: "And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Gen 48:5

We also learn from Torah that they were sons of a Gentile woman: "And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him. And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh ... And the name of the second called he Ephraim" Gen 41:50-52 cf Gen 46:20

Since many Jewish groups recognize matrilineal descent, are these two tribes of Israel considered Gentile sojourners with Israel?

Mitochondrial DNA is passed mother to daughter, only daughters can pass it to their daughters, sons do not pass their mother's mitochondrial DNA to their children and the sons' daughters will subsequently inherit their mother's mDNA. Women do not carry the Y chromosome, but it is passed father to son, eternally.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

My opinion

• Asenath was the daughter of a pagan priest and was therefore pagan and remained so.

• Joseph was not a practicing Jew in Egypt. He did however believe in the one G-d of Israel but to be second in command we don't know what else he believed after this happened. He lived in Egypt for 103 years which made him basically Egyptian, through and through.

• By the time they get to the mountain it is Joseph's great grandchildren which are there. While in Egypt though, being the children of Joseph, did they live with the Hebrews or Egyptians?

• Perhaps those who were the 'strangers' that joined them in fleeing Egypt were none other than the grandchildren of Joseph.

• At least Mose's wife was related through Abraham.

Bottom line, I believe Israel as a nation became so at the foot of the mountain when they agreed to the terms of being the people of G-d and he being their only G-d. It doesn't matter what they were before, once they take that oath, that is who they are. If they turn to idolatry, Tribal born or not, they aren't.

All of your 'bullet points' contradict the Blessing over every Israelite son, "May you be like Ephraim and Menashe".

 

[Lulav]

All of your 'bullet points' contradict the Blessing over every Israelite son, "May you be like Ephraim and Menashe".

Well it is done because it is in the Torah (Genesis 48:20) , but I don't see this contradicting it.

 

[Yahudim]

Matrilineal descent was not counted until sometime during or after the Babylonian exile (another tradition borrowed from the pagans). Before that, tribal affiliation was from the father.

Hi Pat,
I'm not so sure that it was 'borrowed' as much as it was a knee-jerk reaction. If you recall, the Judeans had been intermarrying with the gentiles that worshipped false idols and leading the children of Israel astray. So when they returned from captivity, they were admonished to put away their pagan wives and children. The default standard for returning Jews became; are you married to a woman of the tribes and are your children of the tribes?

If your going to go by Judaism your going to have to believe that 1) Asenath coverted, according to the apocryphal book of Joseph and Asenath, and/or 2) that Asenath was actually the daughter of Dinah, when she was raped by Shechem.

This is how modern Judaism views the 'Jewishness' of Ephraim and Manasseh. Mom was a convert, or was Jewish to begin with.

Do you have any difinative documentation of this? I tend to agree, as modern Judaism on one hand tends to project it's theology back to the beginnings (i.e. oral Torah from Mt. Sinai), then on the other tends to state they evolve traditions throughout time (Talmud). You can't have it both ways. Either Judaism was/is matrilineal, or it wasn't at one time, and now is. It can't have been from the beginning yet evolved that way over time. Which is it?

Hi David! Good to have you back. What do you think of my reply above? Obviously I agree with your assessment. There is a clear record of patrilineal descent prior to the return from the Babylonian captivity.

I've heard many rabbi's teach that the Jewish nation was formed at Mount Sinai. Before that, they were only descendants of a common father, Jacob. They state that when standing at Mount Sinai, they were chosen and appointed a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, and so became a people.

In other words, at that moment everyone standing there—including Zipporah, Moses’ wife; including even Moses himself—all became Jewish.

A nation born in a day.

But as you stated, it is clear that modern Judaism has to have come to terms with the 'gentile heritage' that occured....as you say. Usually it's to make the mother Jewish according to tradition in some way.

Again, I agree. Which begs the question based on the following:

Exo_12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Neh_13:3 Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude.

If the 70 nations that went to Sinai with Moses became 'a nation' that day, what does this say about Israel and the mixed multitude that returned with them from exile?

My opinion

• Asenath was the daughter of a pagan priest and was therefore pagan and remained so.

• Joseph was not a practicing Jew in Egypt. He did however believe in the one G-d of Israel but to be second in command we don't know what else he believed after this happened. He lived in Egypt for 103 years which made him basically Egyptian, through and through.

• By the time they get to the mountain it is Joseph's great grandchildren which are there. While in Egypt though, being the children of Joseph, did they live with the Hebrews or Egyptians?

• Perhaps those who were the 'strangers' that joined them in fleeing Egypt were none other than the grandchildren of Joseph.

• At least Mose's wife was related through Abraham.

Bottom line, I believe Israel as a nation became so at the foot of the mountain when they agreed to the terms of being the people of G-d and he being their only G-d. It doesn't matter what they were before, once they take that oath, that is who they are. If they turn to idolatry, Tribal born or not, they aren't.

So the question becomes, were the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt representative of the seventy families of Noah? Or were they 'mixed' in the sense that they were all related to Israel (Jacob) in some fashion? Inquiring minds want to know.

Mitochondrial DNA is passed mother to daughter, only daughters can pass it to their daughters, sons do not pass their mother's mitochondrial DNA to their children and the sons' daughters will subsequently inherit their mother's mDNA. Women do not carry the Y chromosome, but it is passed father to son, eternally.

I agree, but I don't know what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure that the returning exiles weren't as familiar with chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA as they are today. Could you put this information in an applicable framework of Jew or Gentile?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I agree, but I don't know what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure that the returning exiles weren't as familiar with chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA as they are today. Could you put this information in an applicable framework of Jew or Gentile?

I believe these modern discoveries support the tracing of the patrilineal line of descent. In my opinion, it is more reliable to trace a y-chromosome, more straight forward than the complexities of mDNA.

 

[Laureate]

As it is written, Jacob embraces his two grandsons as his own: "And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Gen 48:5

We also learn from Torah that they were sons of a Gentile woman: "And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him. And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh ... And the name of the second called he Ephraim" Gen 41:50-52 cf Gen 46:20

Since many Jewish groups recognize matrilineal descent, are these two tribes of Israel considered Gentile sojourners with Israel?

David's grandmother was Moabite, hence Jesse was a half breed, David's mother is not mentioned, Solomon's mother (from Giloh) was possibly a Hitite, but scriptures again do not specify, however the entire paternal genealogy is carefully recorded from Adam, which tells me all I need to know, i.e., track the paternal blood line, not the mothers.

A male has both X & Y chromosomes, therefore he passes on both chromosomes, a female can not pass on what she does not possess; the birthright was given to Adam who is both male and female, this automatically includes Eve, if you flip the script, Adam would not be automatically included if the birthright were to be reckoned by the X chromosome/female, whereas Eve was to cleave unto her husband to retain the hermaphrodite relationship of body parts, and thus be counted as Adam...

Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

He did not name them Adam and Eve, He called them Adam.

 

[yedida]

Hi Pat,
I'm not so sure that it was 'borrowed' as much as it was a knee-jerk reaction. If you recall, the Judeans had been intermarrying with the gentiles that worshipped false idols and leading the children of Israel astray. So when they returned from captivity, they were admonished to put away their pagan wives and children. The default standard for returning Jews became; are you married to a woman of the tribes and are your children of the tribes?

Hi David! Good to have you back. What do you think of my reply above? Obviously I agree with your assessment. There is a clear record of patrilineal descent prior to the return from the Babylonian captivity.

Again, I agree. Which begs the question based on the following:If the 70 nations that went to Sinai with Moses became 'a nation' that day, what does this say about Israel and the mixed multitude that returned with them from exile?

So the question becomes, were the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt representative of the seventy families of Noah? Or were they 'mixed' in the sense that they were all related to Israel (Jacob) in some fashion? Inquiring minds want to know.

I agree, but I don't know what you are trying to say. I'm pretty sure that the returning exiles weren't as familiar with chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA as they are today. Could you put this information in an applicable framework of Jew or Gentile?

Wonderful to see you back!!!

 

[Avodat]

David's grandmother was Moabite, hence Jesse was a half breed, David's mother is not mentioned, Solomon's mother (from Giloh) was possibly a Hitite, but scriptures again do not specify, however the entire paternal genealogy is carefully recorded from Adam, which tells me all I need to know, i.e., track the paternal blood line, not the mothers.

A male has both X & Y chromosomes, therefore he passes on both chromosomes, a female can not pass on what she does not possess; the birthright was given to Adam who is both male and female, this automatically includes Eve, if you flip the script, Adam would not be automatically included if the birthright were to be reckoned by the X chromosome/female, whereas Eve was to cleave unto her husband to retain the hermaphrodite relationship of body parts, and thus be counted as Adam...

Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

He did not name them Adam and Eve, He called them Adam.

Will we ever know for sure about these two half-tribes - I suspect that all we can do is to speculate, surely?

 

[pat34lee]

Will we ever know for sure about these two half-tribes - I suspect that all we can do is to speculate, surely?

All we can do for now is speculate, anyway. One day soon, we'll know who they are because YHWH will bring them back to Israel.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I believe in the lost tribes, but I must say, I was so invested in the doctrines associated with it, and it was really a waste of time. There's very little real substance to the belief, very little real-world application (for me personally).

 

[Yahudim]

Wonderful to see you back!!!

Thanks Sis. Just a drive-by really. Lots on my plate lately - as in much to do - not as in having the nephew of Abraham for supper. Please pass the salt - but just a pinch.

 

[visionary]

Here is a website on an ol' Rabbi who studied the subject of the 10 tribes, which he considered to be 13 total. THE TEN TRIBES WILL RETURN!The Bible Says So! (Nachmanides) - Nazarene Space

 

[Steve Petersen]

Ezra has Israel put away their foreign wives when they returned to the land with them.

IMO, this confirms matrilineal descent makes one a Jew.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Since many Jewish groups recognize matrilineal descent, are these two tribes of Israel considered Gentile sojourners with Israel?

There has never been a gentile tribe of Israel, and there never will be, so what gave you the idea that it's even possible?