Man-made Doctrines of Healing...

[Benedicta00]

Then why does he allow it Andrew?

Why do you think Jesus came? To save us from our sins but also to transform our human suffering by suffering with us from a curse into a grace.

I think you must have a different understanding of original sin. That was the curse that we were under and we have been delivered from that in full but God never delivered us from the consequence of what Adam caused us but he gave us the cross where we find our peace in our human condition, God by the power of the cross which was suffering, can actually turn illness and suffering into a grace, not a curse. That is God and that is his power.

 

[Benedicta00]

But where is the wholeness in that?

Where is the trust that even though you may not be able to see the wholeness on this side of heaven, it is there?

We can not possible know what God knows and who is to say what he does or does not view as whole? If you are spiritually healed 100%, you really think you are lacking in something if you are not physically perfect???

I find that interesting that someone would not be satisfied with spiritual wholeness and actually thought that there was more.

 

[look]

Shelb5, did you not know that we are "spirit, soul and body"? If you are whole in spirit, what about the other two? It stands to reason that if you are lacking in one or two or even all three, you are not whole...

I think that you might be the sort that believes that our promises are for when we get to Heaven. If that's the case, I can assure you, we have life everlasting and it starts here, when you got born-again!!!

Praise God for His Goodness and Blessings on you!!!

 

[Benedicta00]

Shelb5, did you not know that we are "spirit, soul and body"? If you are whole in spirit, what about the other two? It stands to reason that if you are lacking in one or two or even all three, you are not whole...

According to who?

 

[look]

According to who?

1 Thessalonians 5:23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Benedicta00]

1 Thessalonians 5:23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It does not say that if you have a illness or disability that you are not whole.

It is referring to justification and sanctification when you meet he lord...not that if you are a true Christian God will heal you they way YOU think you should be healed.

It means don't have no sin on your soul when you meet the lord.

 

[Andrew]

Then why does he allow it Andrew?

If A chooses to slap B, why does God allow it? If A chooses to divorce B why does God allow it? If A chooses to shoot B in the head, why does God allow it? If A chooses to jump down from the 10th storey, why does God allow it? But if God allows such things to happen on this earth, does that mean he wants it to happen and even plans for it to happen?

I believe it has to do with free will. I believe it has to do with the devil "going around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he MAY devour."

There are things we do or dont do, things we believe (doctrines) or dont believe, that cause sickness to come upon us. But God has a way out, he always provides a way out for his people. We are to find out what his ways are regarding living in divine health, and submit to his ways. We may not get it right all the time but we work towards it. We are all learning the ways of God, even in the area of health and healing.

I think you must have a different understanding of original sin. That was the curse that we were under and we have been delivered from that in full but God never delivered us from the consequence of what Adam caused us but he gave us the cross where we find our peace in our human condition, God by the power of the cross which was suffering, can actually turn illness and suffering into a grace, not a curse. That is God and that is his power.

My friend, all sin was taken care of at the cross. Jesus did not do an incomplete work. If you study the five offerings in the OT (Leviticus), you will find that they cover all sins. Jesus' work is so powerful and wonderful that it takes five offerings to describe and cover it!

By original sin I take it you mean Adam's sin. Then read Romans 5 which compares Adam's sin to our Lord's work.

Finally, the only way a suffering or sickness can be turned into a "grace" is for that condition to be completely healed. You cannot call a sickness or any sickness a "grace" or "blessing" becos scripture already clearly calls all sickness a curse.

Yes, of course, we do not doubt that God can use sickness the devil brings to reap some benefits out of it (like a closer walk with Jesus) when we dont have the faith to be healed but that is not God's best for us. For one thing, the biblical way to know God more intimately is not by way of sickness, you'll never find that in the Bible. eg Paul prayed that the people would have a spirit of wisdom and revelation to know Jesus more. not a spirit of cancer or diabetes.

 

[look]

1 Thessalonians 5:23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It does not say that if you have a illness or disability that you are not whole.

It is referring to justification and sanctification when you meet he lord...not that if you are a true Christian God will heal you they way YOU think you should be healed.

It means don't have no sin on your soul when you meet the lord.

Ok-dokey...

But what about the other two parts of you? I notice the soul was mentioned, but what about the spirit and body?

It does not say that if you have a illness or disability that you are not whole.

Actually it does, but you are not seeing it, so anyway, this one does;

MT 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
MT 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

This woman was sick!!! When this woman got healed, what did Jesus say? He said, "Your faith has made you whole".

Here are more;

• MT 12:13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
  
• MT 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
  
• MT 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
  
  
• MT 15:31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.
  
• MK 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick...
  
• MK 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
  
  
• MK 5:28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
  
• MK 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
  
• MK 6:56 And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole. What a healer, huh?
  
• MK 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
  
  
• LK 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick
  
• LK 6:10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
  
• LK 7:10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.
  
• LK 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
  
• LK 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
  
• LK 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
  
• JN 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
  
• JN 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
  
• JN 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
  
• JN 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
  
• JN 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
  
• JN 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
  
• JN 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
  
• ACTS 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
  
• ACTS 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
  
• ACTS 9:34 And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately.
  
• 1THESS 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It would appear, that to Jesus, a healed body was considered "made whole".

I have given you 29 examples of the use of "whole" and how it is applied. It is highly unmistakeable that whole means whole!!!

Hallelujah!!! Praise the Lord!!! What a Healer, huh?

Did you know that the word "Shalom" literally means, "nothing broken and nothing missing"? That's a good description of "wholeness", is it not?

Shalom and may our God and Lord, Jesus, fill your cup to overflowing...

 

[Benedicta00]

Look,

I guess it all boils down to what one views as "whole."

Didn’t Jesus say that it is better to go to heaven with no body parts than to go to hell with all of them?

When he refers to the body, he means we do not live according to the flesh and we do what we have to o to our flesh that causes us to sin.

I do not think that this earthly life (valley of tears) is what I should put all my stock in, we will never be fully whole until we behold the beatific vision. That is how I interpret those verses.

Made whole is being saved by the blood of the lamb, it’s not being able to walk or see, or what ever.

How sad if one spends all their life searching for worldly things and searching for what the world tells you is “wholeness.”

 

[Benedicta00]

If A chooses to slap B, why does God allow it? If A chooses to divorce B why does God allow it? If A chooses to shoot B in the head, why does God allow it? If A chooses to jump down from the 10th storey, why does God allow it? But if God allows such things to happen on this earth, does that mean he wants it to happen and even plans for it to happen?

No, I do not believe he ordains evil.

I believe it has to do with free will. I believe it has to do with the devil "going around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he MAY devour."

Amen, me too.

There are things we do or dont do, things we believe (doctrines) or dont believe, that cause sickness to come upon us. But God has a way out, he always provides a way out for his people. We are to find out what his ways are regarding living in divine health, and submit to his ways. We may not get it right all the time but we work towards it. We are all learning the ways of God, even in the area of health and healing.

Hmm, that wasn't half bad, but where I disagree is that doctrines and things we do or not do, does not cause suffering, we do not know what really causes suffering but other hand because it is the human condition that God saw fit to remain with us for his own mysterious reasons, this was his plan, not to inflict evil on us but he permits evil to remain even after Jesus redeemed us.

I mean there are natural consequence like if you smoke for 30 years and you get lung cancer then who gave you that cross? Not God but he can heal you by using the cross of Christ to turn that cross of cancer into a grace to heal you spiritually, he can bring good even out of self inflicted suffering.

Humility is also a grace that can be drawn from suffering, if we are all the time healed then where is the virtues that a Christian are to develop ever developed?

Where I do agree is that God does give us a way out when ever we go to him and ask him. He is a good God that wants to heal us, but he knows absolutely in his wisdom what is the best healing we need and all I am saying is that may not be a physical one all the time. His thoughts are not ours and his thoughts and ways are high above our.

My friend, all sin was taken care of at the cross. Jesus did not do an incomplete work. If you study the five offerings in the OT (Leviticus), you will find that they cover all sins. Jesus' work is so powerful and wonderful that it takes five offerings to describe and cover it!

I agree, you are not talking to a Calvinist, here. I believe in the power of the blood to save all and to deliver all, but we see healings in a different light. I do not believe that our temporary physical condition/perfection is what is top of God's healing priority list. He sees the whole plan, the whole picture why he would allow something physical to remain, so he knows better, he is looking out for our eternity, not only our immediate temporary state.

By original sin I take it you mean Adam's sin. Then read Romans 5 which compares Adam's sin to our Lord's work.

Surly you do not disagree that eve though we are justified by Christ, we still have a sin nature that we always have to "work out" with fear and trembling? The consequence, not the guilt still remains with us.

Finally, the only way a suffering or sickness can be turned into a "grace" is for that condition to be completely healed. You cannot call a sickness or any sickness a "grace" or "blessing" becos scripture already clearly calls all sickness a curse.

Again you are looking at this from a worldly one side of heaven way.

Yes, of course, we do not doubt that God can use sickness the devil brings to reap some benefits out of it (like a closer walk with Jesus) when we dont have the faith to be healed but that is not God's best for us. For one thing, the biblical way to know God more intimately is not by way of sickness, you'll never find that in the Bible. eg Paul prayed that the people would have a spirit of wisdom and revelation to know Jesus more. not a spirit of cancer or diabetes.

But we do not ask for suffering, that would be wrong, we just know that in this valley of tears there will be suffering – it is inevitable, for what ever reasons. Thanks be to God he gave us the power of the cross where we can turn suffering into grace, the way Christ turned his suffering into grace for all of us.

 

[Andrew]

Hmm, that wasn't half bad, but where I disagree is that doctrines and things we do or not do, does not cause suffering,

just a quick one cos I gotta run off to somewhere. Do you know that there are many Christians in the asylum becos they believe in a false doctrine regarding the unpardonable sin? there are many Christians today suffering needlessly becos they believed some false doctrine. take the "RCs" in the Philippines, they go thru this procession during Good Fri -- they beat there backs with glass brushes until they bleed. do all sorts of self-inflicting stuff to atone for the sins of the village etc.

so wrong beliefs do lead to suffering.

 

[Luchnia]

Why would a child of God accept sickness in any way, shape, or form from the devil? (Jn 10:10, Acts 10:38) If sickness were of God, then Jesus fought against His very own Father and lied to us all, because Jesus went about doing good and HEALING all of that were oppressed by the devil. If God got glory from sickness, then Jesus was not glorifying God by healing folks. He was actually opposing God. We know better than this.

The devil wants to steal your health, your finances and your soul and he has managed to steal many people's health, finances, not too mention many other things.

Word up!

 

[Benedicta00]

just a quick one cos I gotta run off to somewhere. Do you know that there are many Christians in the asylum becos they believe in a false doctrine regarding the unpardonable sin? there are many Christians today suffering needlessly becos they believed some false doctrine. take the "RCs" in the Philippines, they go thru this procession during Good Fri -- they beat there backs with glass brushes until they bleed. do all sorts of self-inflicting stuff to atone for the sins of the village etc.

so wrong beliefs do lead to suffering.

But that kind of suffering is called penance where we offer Jesus reparation for all the blasphemies, sacrileges, and disrespect that he receives by non Christians and unbelievers.

This sever type of penance is not ordinary in the Church and it should only be done by those under spiritual direction who are being called by God to suffer for his glory.

We suffer "with" him as a means of obtaining pardon for the sins of the world and drawing down his grace on sinners for their conversion.

We don’t have to beat ourselves up or inflict pain on ourselves to do this. We all have an over abundance of opportunities to give God our suffering as a penance for us and poor sinners.

Think of it as a way of offering “prayer” with our entire lives for the salvation of others and for ones self to be delivered of a certain habitual sin. We believe this is what Paul meant when he said to “Pray with out ceasing.”

We just give it all to God as a offering, the good, the bad and the ugly.


I know already that you disagree that we need to atone for anything, but it is a mystical union that transcends time that I know you do not understand so I really do not want to debate or argue this point but I was originally referring to illness or sufferings that we by no choice of our own are suffering.

IOW, if we do not do this or that, I do not think that God dishes out suffering as a punishment to us or that he refuses to heal us because we do not believe in him enough, that sort of thing.

But I will dare to agree with you that believing something crazy about God can render us suffering that God is not the author of.

I know you think the RC beliefs inflict suffering but I am thinking more along the lines of the oppression that Muslim women put on themselves because of their faith or the JW’s who would rather die than receive a blood transfusion.

 

[Andrew]

Why would a child of God accept sickness in any way, shape, or form from the devil? (Jn 10:10, Acts 10:38) If sickness were of God, then Jesus fought against His very own Father and lied to us all, because Jesus went about doing good and HEALING all of that were oppressed by the devil. If God got glory from sickness, then Jesus was not glorifying God by healing folks. He was actually opposing God. We know better than this.
The devil wants to steal your health, your finances and your soul and he has managed to steal many people's health, finances, not too mention many other things.
Word up!

You are so blessed to see these simple truths!!!

But that kind of suffering is called penance where we offer Jesus reparation for all the blasphemies, sacrileges, and disrespect that he receives by non Christians and unbelievers.

My friend, all that has already been accomplished on the cross by the only Lamb that is qualified to do so. And He did a wonderful and perfect work.

Its like the original Mona Lisa work of art. It's complete, finished and perfect. But many are trying to add brush strokes to it, to improve it or add their "effort" to it. Basically, what they are saying is that the artist did not do a very good job, or missed a spot.

In short, it is an insult to Christ.