Man-made Doctrines of Healing...

[look]

To all;
It seems the idea, that God will put or use sickness to "teach" you something or to "glorify Him" is prevalent among some of the different abominations, er, I mean denominations (relax, that was a feeble attempt at humor...).

What I don't understand is, how can this doctrine even be accepted without any thought, to the Nature of God, the examples in the Old Testament days that were written for our admonation and the promises of God to us as believers?

I have argued and for some of those who would prefer, "debated", the fallacies of the "God uses sickness to teach you something" doctrine. We all know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. We also have heard it said that God changes not. If that is the case, then why didn't God just smite the rebellous "children of Israel" that He brought out of Egypt?

According to today's doctrine, God should have made those people sick so they would have turned around and walked in His ways! If God uses or puts sickness on people to teach them something, then why, I ask you, didn't He do that to those people? If there was ever anybody that needed to learn God's ways, they were the ones...but did God afflict them?

All I can tell you is, God sent them back out to the wilderness and told them they were not going to enter the promised land because of their disobedience and their children under twenty would go in. God did shorten their lifespans from 120 years down to 70 or 80 years. But the whole time those people were in the wilderness, none of them got sick, their clothes never wore out and they were fed manna from Heaven and given water from a rock. God still took care of them!

In Psalm 91, you can see the nature of God. You can see that if you set your love on Him and walk in His ways, He will protect you from (in today's times) biological weapons, terrorist attacks, anthrax in the mail and any other form of pestilences. Whenever our boys get sent to fight in a war, Psalms 91 has been written on paper and they would carry the Psalm 91 scripture wherever they went. They read it and read it and read it untill they had it memorized and it went into their heart and faith came with it in the process. There are many, many testimonies from the battlefield of miraculous and divine interventions that saved their lives. So we know that God's promise, "Psalms 91" works!

I wonder if any of the devotees of the "God uses sickness to teach" or the groupies of the "it might not be God's will for you to be healed" bunch, have even read the end of Psalm 91? Let's go look and see...

[align=center]Psalms 91:16 in Various Translations...[/align]

• 1599 Geneva Bible...With long life wil I satisfie him, and shew him my saluation. (that's old english, the "u" instead of our "v")
• Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, J.P. Green, Sr. Interlinear Greek and Hebrew Bible...I will satisfy him with length of days, and will make Him see My salvation.
• 1833 Webster's Bible...With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation.
• 1898 Young's Literal Translation...With length of days I satisfy him, And I cause him to look on My salvation!
• King James Version with Strong's numbers...With long753 life3117 will I satisfy7646 him, and show7200 him my salvation.3444
• The Amplified Bible...With long life will I satisfy him and show him My salvation.

I think you can agree that there is not much variance with the translation of this verse between the many different Bible translations. Are we in agreement? Good, then lets go to the next point.

The word, "salvation" is taken from the Hebrew word, yesh-oo'-aw. The following is from the Strong's Hebrew Dictionary;
H3444
ישׁוּעה
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Hmm, I see that the idea of prosperity and welfare are also included in the definition of the word salvation, along with health.

Ok, does this show that God wants us to he happy, with long life and health, without need of anything (prosperity)?

Talk to me and if you want to refute this, then please use two or more different instances in the Bible, with the references, to back your stance.

Thank you and blessings to all...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Jesus is the exact image of the Father. He is the exact expression of the Father's will. If it were the will and way of the Father to use sickness to accomplish something in our lives, then Jesus would have gone around putting sickness on people. He never did.

Jesus went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil. You do not see anyone oppressed by God, nor do you see Jesus refusing to heal because He thought sickness accomplished something in the lives of the sick.

If sickness were a way for God to teach us things, then why is there no spiritual "gift of ensickening" listed in 1 cor 12? Why is there no "working of crippling" or "casting out of health"?

If you are one who believes that God wants you sick for some strange reason, then why do you go to the doctor for treatment and ask him to help you get out of the will of God? You should do your best to get into the complete will of God and be as sick as you can possibly be!

If you think you are sick because God is trying to teach you something, then what is it? If you know what it is, then why not just learn it, get into obediance, and get healed? If you do not know what He is trying to teach you with this sickness, then you are implying He is not a very good teacher!

If you think you are sick for some sin, then why not repent, get forgiven, and get healed as James tells us? Sin is grounds for sickness and destruction of the flesh. But God has given us opportunity to repent, confess, and be restored to complete fellowship with Him. The greater danger is not sickness... do something about that darkness you are walking around in!

If you image yourself to be some sort of Job figure, then remember that Job suffered for only a few months, and then had everything restored and more! I suspect we have all suffered in life more than this imaginary quota. So now is the time for the restoration.

If you imagine yourself to be suffering some distress and buffeting like Paul. Then you, like he, must possess some great revelation from God! He wrote the majority of the NT... what great revelation are you privy to that would merit the personal attention of satan? If you start raising the dead and healing with your shadow, then we will understand the buffeting. Until then you will just have to endure health.

All in all, the notion that it is the will of God for you to be sick is a hold over from old roman and greek gods who used sickness and trails to torment and test mortals. We are not pawns in some giant chess game. He is our Father and we are His children. What you want for your children, He wants for you... except how much more!

 

[Outspoken]

It is written that we are not greater then our master, who is Christ, why should we not suffer, for he himself suffered.

 

[Outspoken]

We also see in John, that the only reason a man was born blind, and lived that way for 30 some odd years, was that the power of God would be displayed in his life that one afternoon when confronted by The Christ.

 

[4sightsounds]

Thank you Outspoken....

I'll take it a step further and say that sometimes God wants us sick...and sometimes God wants us dead! Let me explain...

Lets look at John 11, the story of the death and resurrection of Lazarus.

Verses 3 and 4 make some very important points. Lazarus is described as someone Jesus loved, or had sentimental affection towards.

Point #1: Just because you are sick, it does not mean that you're out of fellowship with God as a result of sin.

Verse 4; Jesus says that the sickness SERVES a purpose; that God may be glorified.

Point #2; God shows himself strong in times of weakness and sickness, for his glory.

Verses 6 and 7 clearly state that in spite of Jesus love for Lazarus, in spite of Jesus' love for Mary and Martha, he decided to stay 2 more days, while Lazarus was holding on for his very life. Hmm...this does not make sense does it? We've been taught to a major degree that health, wealth and prosperity are perks for being hooked up w/ Jesus. Not so for these 3 it seems....

THEN Jesus decides to go to Judea. If it's not clear yet, verse 15 makes it clear that Jesus wanted him dead. Dead for the purpose outlined in verse 4.

The Poll needs to combine answers 2 and 3. Those are biblical. Number 1 is the result of the modern day Gospel and knows no Biblical counterpart. It is the work of those that seek to fashion a God in the image of their choice.

 

[look]

4sightsounds, outspoken, thank you for your opinions! They are duly noted...and made part of your confession.

Because of your faith and confession, you guys will not receive healing when you pray. Read Romans
10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

See the connection?


If you don't know if it's God's will to heal you, then where will the faith for it come from? James (Jesus' half brother, he grew up with Jesus and should know what he is talking about...) had this to say;
Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jam 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.


How can you have the faith to receive from God, if you don't know whether it is His will? Jesus said, Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

If you don't know whether it is God's will to heal you, how can you possibly not doubt in your heart? If you don't know if it is God's will to save you, how can you get born-again? It's the same with the rest of God's promises...

I love you, my brothers, but please don't make it harder on yourselves. There is coming a time where the Christians who have learned by experience to walk in God's promises will be protected from all of the evil that's coming to this great country. There will be a few terrorist attacks that will get past America's prayer warriors. It is during that time that everybody will come out of what doesn't work and come to the place, where the Christians have learned to obtain the promises of God, are hanging out...

 

[4sightsounds]

Where did Lazarus' faith come from? Please don't say from Mary or Martha or whomever....they had written him off.

Also, what kind of logic says that we are to remain healthy all of our days when it's the means by which we leave the Earth to be with God?

I mean no harm, but those passages you posted really deserve to be studied in their proper context.

 

[look]

Where did Lazarus' faith come from? Please don't say from Mary or Martha or whomever....they had written him off.

Yes, they did, however they (including Lazarus) were partners with Jesus' ministry. Besides, Mary hadn't totally written Lazarus off, she made an inside adjustment in her heart and listened to what Jesus said.

Also, what kind of logic says that we are to remain healthy all of our days when it's the means by which we leave the Earth to be with God?

The kind of logic that Abraham and Moses and countless others, including the apostle John had. They went home when they were ready to do so. This is one of the teachings the Lord is bringing back into the light. Albeit with a lot of resistance.

I mean no harm, but those passages you posted really deserve to be studied in their proper context.

I wholeheartedly agree, brother!!!

Blessings to you from our God and Lord Jesus...

 

[Andrew]

I wanted to say what disdaskalos has already said in the first para.

I mean, what is the best most current/NT way to know what God is like? Look at Jesus and what He did when he was on earth. After all, Jesus was God's express image. The 2 are one. Jesus only moved when He saw his Father move etc.

So, if God putting sickness on people to teach them something is so important to the Christian and is so "true" as some teach, then why in the world did Jesus NOT reflect this all-important aspect of God when he walked on the earth. How is it He healed all who came to him? How is it he never called a healthy man and said: "Come, receive leprosy...", or "No, it is not my will to heal. I'll heal him but not you, sorry..." ??

 

[Benedicta00]

I did not vote because I did not exactly see the correct representation for my belief.

It is my belief that God does always heal but he heals us in the way in which HE knows we need to be healed and that may not be the way that we think we should be healed. He does not always heal us physically when we ask but he always gives us a healing.

 

[Andrew]

Also, what kind of logic says that we are to remain healthy all of our days when it's the means by which we leave the Earth to be with God?

1. Where in the Bible does it say Christians are to leave this world ONLY by means of disease?

2. There are many scipture verses that says that God wants us to have a long life. And I'm sure he did not mean long, miserable and sickly lives.

The Christian does not have to leave this world via sickness. He can simply leave, full of days and without sickness, when he's finished his race and wants to go home.

ps: no one is saying that Christians are promised immortality on earth. IOW, 100 years from now, if Jesus does not yet return, none of us here today will be around on this earth, me and you included.

 

[look]

I did not vote because I did not exactly see the correct representation for my belief.

It is my belief that God does always heal but he heals us in the way in which HE knows we need to be healed and that may not be the way that we think we should be healed. He does not always heal us physically when we ask but he always gives us a healing.

Opps! :o I'm truly sorry, I didn't even think of that! Please accept my apologies...

 

[Outspoken]

how about taking a look at Job, a righteous man in God's sight according to the words in the first chapter, but he was struck down.

 

[4sightsounds]

1. Where in the Bible does it say Christians are to leave this world ONLY by means of disease?

2. There are many scipture verses that says that God wants us to have a long life. And I'm sure he did not mean long, miserable and sickly lives.

The Christian does not have to leave this world via sickness. He can simply leave, full of days and without sickness, when he's finished his race and wants to go home.

ps: no one is saying that Christians are promised immortality on earth. IOW, 100 years from now, if Jesus does not yet return, none of us here today will be around on this earth, me and you included.

Did I say that disease is the only way to leave this Earth?

There's other ways, too. Fox's Book of Martyrs can shed some insight on that. Also, study how the Apostles died.

 

[4sightsounds]

I did not vote because I did not exactly see the correct representation for my belief.

It is my belief that God does always heal but he heals us in the way in which HE knows we need to be healed and that may not be the way that we think we should be healed. He does not always heal us physically when we ask but he always gives us a healing.

Hi Shelb5,

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that sometimes He may not heal us physically, but perhaps he will give us the wisdom, understanding and strength to endure the circumstances?

 

[Andrew]

Also, what kind of logic says that we are to remain healthy all of our days when it's the means by which we leave the Earth to be with God?

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth....[until age 50-60+, when thou is to contract some sickness, by which thou will leave this earth to be with thy Lord.] I dont think so.

Did I say that disease is the only way to leave this Earth?

There's other ways, too. Fox's Book of Martyrs can shed some insight on that. Also, study how the Apostles died.

Are you saying that Christians who dont die of sickness or accidents are all called to be martyrs?

Consider also, these scriptures:

Ps 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation. {long life with satisfaction, not sickness]

Pr 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. [long life with peace, not sickness]

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. [life abundant -- long and not with sickness]

Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. [long life and well with thee, not unwell with sickness]

 

[Andrew]

1 Corinthians 3:17 says that "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are".

Now, would God contradict himself by putting leprosy on you? Or a cancer that eats away your internal organs? Is it God's will then or one of His chosen methods by which we leave this earth?

What is "defile"?

5351 fyeiro phtheiro {fthi'-ro}

probably strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste);
TDNT - 9:93,1259; v

AV - corrupt 4, corrupt (one's) self 1, be corrupt 1, defile 1,
destroy 1; 8

1) to corrupt, to destroy
1a) in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or
"destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
1b) to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge
and holiness in which it ought to abide
1c) to be destroyed, to perish
1d) in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

So, how can we say that it is God's will that one of the ways we leave this earth is by way of disease that ultimately kills us. If God gives life and says that death is an enemy, why wld he want us killed by disease? Giving life and killing are opposites.

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi Shelb5,

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that sometimes He may not heal us physically, but perhaps he will give us the wisdom, understanding and strength to endure the circumstances?

He heals us in the way in which we need to be healed however that may be.

I do not believe that God sees illness the same way we do, I do not necessarily think illness is "evil" what we make of it is what can be evil but when we give it to God even if it remains, God is using that to bring about good. We have to trust God that he is handling the situation even if we can not make sense with our limited understanding of God and a spiritual healing is far better than a physical healing.

 

[look]

But where is the wholeness in that?

 

[Andrew]

I do not necessarily think illness is "evil" what we make of it is what can be evil but when we give it to God even if it remains, God is using that to bring about good.

My question is, if a sickness is not "evil" then why the need for God to bring good out of it?

Also, why is any and every sickness considered a curse by God as stated in Deu 28's famous list of curses.

v61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon [Hebrew -- "permit"] thee, until thou be destroyed.

IOW this verse covers ALL and EVERY sickness, meaning that EVERY and ANY sickness is a curse, never a good thing, where God is concerned.