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Man is not neutral to God (?)

Discussion in 'Ask a Calvinist' started by Ann77, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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    Alright sorry for spamming this area with questions. It's just something has been bothering me that I can't wrap my mind around. It's about the bondage of the will.

    I always thought that people in hell were haters of God and cannot change their mind because they need the Holy Spirit.

    But what about the story of the rich man and Lazarus? I know some think this story is fiction but no where are we told it is not true and these people have real names. Plus parables are supposed to be realistic. Do you think the rich man was repentant or just wanted a drink of water and to warn his family? It seems like he changed his mind if he wanted to warn his family but maybe it wasn't true repentance.

    What are your thoughts?
     
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  2. Hammster

    Hammster God’s World, God’s Rules Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    There’s some things we just don’t know. But I’ll give my opinion.

    One, if he was repentant, he didn’t show it. He never made a plea to God for forgiveness.

    Two, it’s possible that he did love his family, and didn’t want them to suffer the same fate.
     
  3. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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    True. Then it says if his family didn't listen to Moses, they wouldn't listen to a man that came back from the dead. Sounds like a deep seated unbelief and resistance to God.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    parable

    a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels

    The parable (not an actual event) was not an illustrative teaching about conditions of the other side of death, or in the unseen world in the intermediate state

    What important lessons (illustrative teachings) are taught in this parable:

    (1) that earthly blessings at best are uncertain and transitory;

    (2) that rich men are responsible not only for
    what they do but also for what they do not do with their wealth;

    (3) that this present life is the only opportunity we will be given to make preparation for the future;

    (4) that selfish inhumanity, and the wrong use of riches, disqualifies one from a place in God's eternal kingdom;

    (5) that the clear teachings of Scripture are sufficient to make us wise unto salvation.
     
  5. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't seem like a parable. If so why would Jesus have referred to one of their actual names?
     
  6. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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    This was helpful:
    Even in hell, it seems, the rich man still wanted to treat Lazarus with condescension or contempt, just as he did in the world.

    But there’s another clue that the rich man remained unrepentant, as Clay Jones points out in a chapter called “How Can Eternal Punishment Be Fair” in his recent book Why Does God Allow Evil?

    Further, the rich man’s suggestion that his brothers needed to be warned betrays a lack of repentance because it implies that he ended up in hell because God didn’t provide him with sufficient warning. Finally, the rich man disagreed with Abraham’s assertions hat the Law of Moses was sufficient evidence to lead his brothers into repentance. As R.C. Trench says, the rich man’s “contempt of God’s word,” which he showed on earth, follows him “beyond the grave.” Ironically, Lazarus was the name of a man who did come back from the dead [See John 11], and the chief priests responded to this resurrection by trying to kill both Jesus and the resurrected Lazarus (John 12:9-10)![1]

    Are people in hell repentant?
     
  7. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No criminal wants to go to jail, yet they commit a plethora of crimes before being caught and finally, going to prison to pay the price of their criminal activity. For them laws and warnings and promises of prison for breaking the law is no deterrent at all.

    To top that off the prison system has an 80% recidivism rate, meaning, 80% of all criminals, once released from the prison system find their way back because, quite frankly, they are criminals and no amount of prison changes their behavior. Why? Because they enjoy their criminal lives and their criminal ways and have zero intention of ever changing.

    This life, and our choices in it are exactly who we are... while knowing God happens to be life-changing for God's people, it's repulsive to those who are, as the Bible says, enemies of God.

    And they are enemies of God because like a dog returning to its own vomit, they hate everything God stands for and is.

    If God's prophets giving warning and all the miracles all around us everyday doesn't convince people the Truth of God, and the wisdom of His ways such that they turn and change in repentance and submit to His perfect Will, then nothing will.

    After the fact isn't based in anything real. We can't love freedom only when we are locked up and all our freedoms removed, but once free go right back to our own vomit until the next time we are locked up.

    God loves us but if we don't return love and trust, what good is an eternity in heaven worshipping Him? If people don't worship here out of a sincere desire to do so, heaven is certainly little more than an eternity in a prison of God's making...

    Calvinism teaches compatiblism, not libertarian free will but neither is God forcing anyone. Compatiblism teaches we ARE responsible for our own choices, not God, while acknowledging that everything surrounding our salvation is a gift from God, in total... because we too were once enemies of God. The why is to show God's glory, His Mercy and His Grace, and not to bring glory to ourselves.
     
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  8. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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    Thank you so much! Your response has helped me out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
  9. Ann77

    Ann77 New Member

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    Do you know if Hyper, Ultra high, and High Calvinist's deny compatibilism? I would think Hyper Calvinist's definitely do.
     
  10. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm more high Calvinist and my husband more hyper Calvinist, and we both believe in compatiblism, that man is responsible for his actions and choices and they are made willingly, and that God chooses those whom He will save, but when God chooses us, we also then choose Him, its irresistible Grace.
     
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  11. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Lazarus is a known actual name for sure ... the question is ... is the name used in reference to an actual person? Was the use of the name Lazarus in the parable referring to the actual Lazarus ... the brother of the sisters Mary & Martha?

    What was the name of the rich man? Can one literally go into the bosom of Abraham?

    "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22), an expression found no other place in Scripture. So far as the Bible is concerned, there is nothing to indicate where "Abraham's bosom" is, or what it signifies.

    The great gulf (Greek, chasma, "chasm")—narrow enough to allow conversation to take place across it, but deep enough to prevent passage.

    One may pass from the state of the condemned (John 3:18) to that of the pardoned while alive on earth. But when earthly death comes, it is forever too late. The gulf is fixed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
  12. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You understand this is a denomination specific forum and it's against the rules to come in and teach against our denominations faith?

    From the statement of purpose:

    House Rules:
    All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

    I ask that if you want to promote your own views, as your not Calvinist, you take it elsewhere...
     
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