Making sense of the stories we tell

[Paradoxum]

A quantitative statement is one with an objective measure that everyone can agree to. Example #1: The KC Royals beat the LA Angels 3-2.

A qualitative statement is about something that isn't measured. Example #2: Baseball is fun.

Some would disagree with the second statement. Even though they would agree with the first statement, they could easily think baseball isn't fun.

Those words don't explain how I feel about baseball. It would leave you with an incomplete, even possibly an erroneous picture of what baseball means to me.

But you could tell me what you think about it without using a story.

That's not what I'm talking about. Someone could jump through the legal hoops of becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen, but that would not make them culturally American.

I agree they wouldn't necessarily believe the same things that a majority of people in the country would.

So I see. Do you think you could walk into a support group of people struggling with some problem you don't have - PTSD, alcoholism, victims of abuse, whatever - and effectively counsel them?

Nope.

 

[Resha Caner]

But you could tell me what you think about it without using a story.

Not in a way that isn't superficial.

Nope.

Why?

- - -

I thought about this some after my last post, and maybe this will help. Let's use the example of baseball again. Suppose you read a book on baseball, understand all the rules and all the physics. Do you expect you'll walk on the field and be a competent player in your first attempt?

I would say no. Why? Because you need to practice. There is no way to read about baseball and take in information that will make you a good player. You have to practice.

Reading narratives about the American experience is somewhat like practicing to be an American in ways that a straightforward attempt at explanation never will be.

Why? To answer that, I would ask if you think your ears provide you information that is different than your eyes? The same for touch, taste, smell, etc? I would say, yes, the information is different. Sound is different than sight. As such, it produces a different response in you.

Therefore, if you don't share all the sensory experiences of being an American, you will have a different perspective on what it means to be an American than someone who has had all those experiences. Your information is different.

Narrative is an attempt to draw you into the experience through your imagination. Have you heard a hawker before? Have you heard a crowd roar? Have you smelled peanuts? Have you tasted a hot dog? Have you had a parent throw their arm around you and pull you in close? Imagine all those sensations and how they made you feel. Now, listen to me put those sensations into a very special order by telling you a story, and see if your imagination can recreate something similar to my experience with baseball ...

I think that is much more powerful than saying, "Baseball is fun."

 

[Paradoxum]

Not in a way that isn't superficial.

I'd understand what you meant just as much either way (unless you don't speak English well).

Why?

I'm not a counsellor. I also can't build a space ship... it's not a skill I have.

I thought about this some after my last post, and maybe this will help. Let's use the example of baseball again. Suppose you read a book on baseball, understand all the rules and all the physics. Do you expect you'll walk on the field and be a competent player in your first attempt?

Yes... I'd be able to play badly.

I would say no. Why? Because you need to practice. There is no way to read about baseball and take in information that will make you a good player. You have to practice.

I agree... you need practice to be good at sport.

Reading narratives about the American experience is somewhat like practicing to be an American in ways that a straightforward attempt at explanation never will be.

I agree that stories can help you care about some things. I don't think I said otherwise.

Why? To answer that, I would ask if you think your ears provide you information that is different than your eyes? The same for touch, taste, smell, etc? I would say, yes, the information is different. Sound is different than sight. As such, it produces a different response in you.

Therefore, if you don't share all the sensory experiences of being an American, you will have a different perspective on what it means to be an American than someone who has had all those experiences. Your information is different.

My problem with this example is that I'm not sure if 'being American' means anything (other than a legal citizen of the US). It sounds really vague. If you mean 'most people care about values X,Y,Z... or tend to do A,B,B; I agree that understanding what other people do would help you understand what the majority of people do.

Narrative is an attempt to draw you into the experience through your imagination. Have you heard a hawker before? Have you heard a crowd roar? Have you smelled peanuts? Have you tasted a hot dog? Have you had a parent throw their arm around you and pull you in close? Imagine all those sensations and how they made you feel. Now, listen to me put those sensations into a very special order by telling you a story, and see if your imagination can recreate something similar to my experience with baseball ...

I think that is much more powerful than saying, "Baseball is fun."

It might be more powerful, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I agree that stories can help you understand things. But I didn't think that was what we were talking about.

It was said in this thread that you would die for a story, not for an idea. Do you think I need a story to care about liberty?

 

[Resha Caner]

I'm not a counsellor. I also can't build a space ship... it's not a skill I have.

But what is one of the most important tools of a counselor? Not formulas learned in a classroom, but support groups - placing those who need help with others who have experienced the same thing. Why? Because what is the phrase you will hear most often from someone who has endured major trauma? "You just don't get it."

Or have you never heard that?

I'd understand what you meant just as much either way (unless you don't speak English well).

I don't think you would. If you believe that, why did you also say in this same post that, "I agree that stories can help you understand things."

My problem with this example is that I'm not sure if 'being American' means anything (other than a legal citizen of the US).

And there is also this, what you said above. You don't think American culture is different than, say, Japanese or Zulu culture? When I traveled in Europe, people would identify me as American before I even opened my mouth ... and I noticed a definite difference between English, Germans, etc. I remember my college days when I found it fascinating that the Asian students could quickly pick out which different cultural groups each one belonged to when I couldn't tell the difference.

It sounds really vague.

Bingo. That's why narratives are necessary. There are things people can distinguish, but which words don't describe. These simple, definitive statements you're looking for are keeping you from a richer understanding.

It was said in this thread that you would die for a story, not for an idea.

I never said that, nor do I agree with it. I wouldn't die for a story or an idea. I assumed the reason you replied to me was because of the questions you had about what I wrote. If that's not the case, we can let it drop.

Do you think I need a story to care about liberty?

I can't tell you what you care about or why. At the same time, I don't think you will effectively communicate why you care about liberty without a narrative ... for the reason I just mentioned. I would never support your idea of liberty just because it's a good idea. I've seen too many ideas that seemed good in their disembodied form (as you seem to be advocating for), that turned out to be worthless when they met real life.

 

[Paradoxum]

But what is one of the most important tools of a counselor? Not formulas learned in a classroom, but support groups - placing those who need help with others who have experienced the same thing. Why? Because what is the phrase you will hear most often from someone who has endured major trauma? "You just don't get it."

Or have you never heard that?

I don't think you would. If you believe that, why did you also say in this same post that, "I agree that stories can help you understand things."

I'm losing the will, and you might be right. I think I was probably thinking of something slightly different.

I agree that stories can help you understand things. Sometimes when I think of euthanasia I read a story about some screaming in pain, begging to die for hours. The doctor eventually helped them die when they were likely in their last hour of life. That story represents to me the compassion of assisted dying, and why opposition is evil.

And there is also this, what you said above. You don't think American culture is different than, say, Japanese or Zulu culture? When I traveled in Europe, people would identify me as American before I even opened my mouth ... and I noticed a definite difference between English, Germans, etc. I remember my college days when I found it fascinating that the Asian students could quickly pick out which different cultural groups each one belonged to when I couldn't tell the difference.

I think there are things that a (large) majority in a country believe and do. If that's what you mean, then I agree. I just feel a bit weird about calling an American, not American, because they don't do things like the majority.

Bingo. That's why narratives are necessary. There are things people can distinguish, but which words don't describe. These simple, definitive statements you're looking for are keeping you from a richer understanding.

I'm not sure that's always true, but I agree that stories can be helpful.

I never said that, nor do I agree with it. I wouldn't die for a story or an idea. I assumed the reason you replied to me was because of the questions you had about what I wrote. If that's not the case, we can let it drop.

You don't believe that fighting or dying for some value is ever worth it?

I can't tell you what you care about or why. At the same time, I don't think you will effectively communicate why you care about liberty without a narrative ... for the reason I just mentioned. I would never support your idea of liberty just because it's a good idea. I've seen too many ideas that seemed good in their disembodied form (as you seem to be advocating for), that turned out to be worthless when they met real life.

Okay.

 

[Colter]

Making Sense of the Stories We Tell | TGC | The Gospel Coalition



Christianity is so influential in the culture that I wouldn't be surprised that many non-Christians look at society through the Christian lens to some extent. That doesn't mean believing "deep down" that all of Christianity is true, just that Christian themes (such as a need for love or forgiveness) may occasionally have some truth to them.

Personally, I find that reading Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged also adds to my experience of literature, even when it is clear that Ayn Rand's narrative has had no direct influence on that literature. Any "master narrative" (a narrative that gives a fairly comprehensive view of things) can function in this way. Any narrative is a lens through which one may examine and evaluate other narratives.

What narratives function as such a lens in your life? How do you see this issue?


eudaimonia,

Mark

The Urantia Book greatly influences my recovery from the duel influence of Jesus' religion that was compromised by Paganism and the mythical history of Judaism.


.

 

[Resha Caner]

You don't believe that fighting or dying for some value is ever worth it?

It might be a bit of a semantic issue. Just recently in another thread I was tenaciously holding to a moral in spite of someone trying to convince me that I would be forced into choosing that moral over the life of someone close to me.

Still, it seems more that values are an attempt to communicate what we will fight for rather than the other way around where one reasons to some abstract idea and then decides to die for it.

I'm not convinced people treasure liberty as much as they say. If they had a choice between starving as a free person and working as an indentured servant (especially if it was for a benevolent master), I think most would choose the latter. In fact, in times past that is the choice many made. Further, "liberty" too often seems a euphimism for a license to be irresponsible.

 

[sarxweh]

The Urantia Book greatly influences my recovery from the duel influence of Jesus' religion that was compromised by Paganism and the mythical history of Judaism.

.

How compromising. You should check out monty python while your at it.

 

[Paradoxum]

It might be a bit of a semantic issue. Just recently in another thread I was tenaciously holding to a moral in spite of someone trying to convince me that I would be forced into choosing that moral over the life of someone close to me.

Still, it seems more that values are an attempt to communicate what we will fight for rather than the other way around where one reasons to some abstract idea and then decides to die for it.

You might be right.

I'm not convinced people treasure liberty as much as they say. If they had a choice between starving as a free person and working as an indentured servant (especially if it was for a benevolent master), I think most would choose the latter. In fact, in times past that is the choice many made.

I think you're scenario is different from what I was thinking of. For example, fighting for your country, or in a civil war. Also, you could say that you are free to do more in long servant life, than a short free life. Which is similar to the concern for liberty.

Further, "liberty" too often seems a euphimism for a license to be irresponsible.

That reads to me as, "People do things I don't like". I know that might not be fair, I'm just saying that's how it sounds to me. What's an example? An example you think I would agree with?

 

[Resha Caner]

That reads to me as, "People do things I don't like". I know that might not be fair, I'm just saying that's how it sounds to me.

Are you suggesting there should be some other criteria?

What's an example? An example you think I would agree with?

That is a tall order indeed, that I would be able to suggest something you'll agree with. It's basically a desire to get something for nothing, and it seems a pretty pervasive desire to me.

I suppose what comes immediately to mind is a book I read recently for my history program about German Lutherans in colonial America. In the 17th century, Germany was a bunch of squabbling principalities. The Germans who emigrated to America were sick of it, and defined liberty as a freedom from constraint. So, the colony they chose was Pennsylvania, which promised land with no strings. All you had to do was pay for it.

As people pushed farther and farther west, the Native Americans became grumpier and grumpier. When the German farmers petitioned the governor of Pennsylvania for protection, he declined. No strings meant no taxes to pay for a militia. The farmers were pretty upset, but why should they have expected anything different?

Their "freedom" caused them a host of other problems as well, but that's maybe the easiest one to explain.