Making sense of the stories we tell

[Paradoxum]

I was thinking about this subject today. Truth is really best conveyed through narrative. A lot of times in philosophical arenas we're bandying about propositions, concepts, and ideas that are disembodied from narrative. We just end up bashing our ideas and concepts together and don't get very far in persuading others of our positions.

That's because ideas, concepts, and propositions that are disembodied from narrative are not very persuasive. Narrative. Story. Those things are truly persuasive. They take the ideas and get them down into the soul and truly convince a man.

You'll fashion your life around a narrative, not simply an idea.

You'll live for a narrative. Maybe even die for one.

I'm not sure 'narrative' is needed to be persuasive, or to get you to act on an idea.

What does it mean to 'fashion your life around a narrative'? It makes sense for a Christian, but I'm not sure how it applies to my life. I'd think my life is more based on principles, rather than stories.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm not sure 'narrative' is needed to be persuasive, or to get you to act on an idea.

What does it mean to 'fashion your life around a narrative'? It makes sense for a Christian, but I'm not sure how it applies to my life. I'd think my life is more based on principles, rather than stories.

Are those principles embodied by any heroes of yours? Disembodied principles tend to be pretty abstract and hard to relate to. Even our principles are usually embodied by certain heroes that we have. What are the films, novels, comics, video games, or stories that you find most meaningful and inspiring?

 

[Paradoxum]

Are those principles embodied by any heroes of yours? Disembodied principles tend to be pretty abstract and hard to relate to. Even our principles are usually embodied by certain heroes that we have. What are the films, novels, comics, video games, or stories that you find most meaningful and inspiring?

I can't think of any fictional heroes which embody my principles. That's why I don't think stories are needed. I care about liberty because I think it's a good principle... not because there's some fictional character. I don't see why disembodied principles are hard to relate to. Maybe I just have a big brain.

No fictional stories come to mind as particularly meaningful and inspiring to me. I'd expect I'd think of some, if a narrative were needed to be inspired by principles.

Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know. It might be nice to have heroes, or an inspiring story, but I just don't feel like I have any which are particularly strong in my mind.

 

[Tree of Life]

They don't have to be fictional.

 

[Paradoxum]

They don't have to be fictional.

I don't know... freeing slaves?

I still don't really see how a story is needed.

 

[sarxweh]

Does principal require circumstance?

It seems that narrative is where the principal is planted as a seed.

But if principal exists with or without narrative, we are claiming that "all is principal"

Can principal exist without context though? What is freedom or slavery without a context(free men and slaves)?

Context/narrative is simply reality, whether it's a fictional reality, or literal reality, it still seems required.

Even a brain in a box is a type of narrative context

 

[Tree of Life]

I don't know... freeing slaves?

I still don't really see how a story is needed.

Try to explain the meaning of liberty without telling some sort of story.

A story of liberty shows me what liberty is and that liberty is real.

 

[Paradoxum]

Try to explain the meaning of liberty without telling some sort of story.

A story of liberty shows me what liberty is and that liberty is real.

The freedom to do what you want as long as it doesn't violate others (and other practically necessary limits, which could be explained further if I wanted to write more).

I agree that examples can help you understand the principle, but your original seemed to be that the narrative was the prime and most important expression of a way of thinking or acting.

I'd say (for me) the principle is of prime importance... examples can just be helpful sometimes. But examples don't tell you when rules apply and when they don't... for that you need principles.

 

[sarxweh]

But examples don't tell you when rules apply and when they don't... for that you need principles.

But how does a person arrive at a principal? For that you need a life to begin with, which is the narrative structure that makes you able to find the principal meaningful.

Perhaps they are inseparable? I would not want to say on the opposite hand, that a narrative is possible without the truths it reveals.

I don't know to be honest. This is fascinating to me

 

[Tree of Life]

The freedom to do what you want as long as it doesn't violate others (and other practically necessary limits, which could be explained further if I wanted to write more).

I agree that examples can help you understand the principle, but your original seemed to be that the narrative was the prime and most important expression of a way of thinking or acting.

I'd say (for me) the principle is of prime importance... examples can just be helpful sometimes. But examples don't tell you when rules apply and when they don't... for that you need principles.

The story is more than just an example or illustration that adds to understanding. It's impossible to understand the meaning of your principle until we see it embodied in a real life situation - in a story. For instance, in order to understand the importance of liberty I've really got to understand the story of the oppressed. I've got to see myself in that story in order to even desire liberty. Your own value of liberty may come from your own story or your own feelings of oppression.

Without the stories the principles have no meaning. But that doesn't mean that the principles can just disappear and be replaced by total story. The principles are our ways of interpreting the story. Each gives the other meaning.

 

[Paradoxum]

But how does a person arrive at a principal? For that you need a life to begin with, which is the narrative structure that makes you able to find the principal meaningful.

I suppose that understanding the harm done by violation of principles does show how important the principle is.

So if that's you're point, I agree.

Perhaps they are inseparable? I would not want to say on the opposite hand, that a narrative is possible without the truths it reveals.

I don't know to be honest. This is fascinating to me

I don't actually find it that fascinating... I'm just talking about it because it happens to be on this site.

My initial problem was the idea that narrative is more important than principles. Which to me implies basing you're life on stories you like, rather than using your brain and empathy to try to come to reasonable principles.

The story is more than just an example or illustration that adds to understanding. It's impossible to understand the meaning of your principle until we see it embodied in a real life situation - in a story. For instance, in order to understand the importance of liberty I've really got to understand the story of the oppressed. I've got to see myself in that story in order to even desire liberty. Your own value of liberty may come from your own story or your own feelings of oppression.

Without the stories the principles have no meaning. But that doesn't mean that the principles can just disappear and be replaced by total story. The principles are our ways of interpreting the story. Each gives the other meaning.

I'd say that real life examples are just putting the principle into practice.

I have issues because it sounds to me like you place stories you like, above using your brain to come to reasonable principles.

I know you probably don't mean that, but your emphasis on stories sounds wishy-washy to me.

(I'm not saying you necessarily are being wishy-washy.)

 

[sarxweh]

My initial problem was the idea that narrative is more important than principles. Which to me implies basing you're life on stories you like, rather than using your brain and empathy to try to come to reasonable principles.

I'd say that real life examples are just putting the principle into practice.

I have issues because it sounds to me like you place stories you like, above using your brain to come to reasonable principles.

The nature of logic suggests we start somewhere and progress to somewhere else. That movement is a narrative structure where a principal is simply a truth waiting to be displayed 'in action'.

What I find fascinating is whether the principal comes from the narrative or the narrative from the principal. I'm open to the possibility that the answer is both or neither, but it seems strange to think of having one without the other.

 

[Paradoxum]

The nature of logic suggests we start somewhere and progress to somewhere else. That movement is a narrative structure where a principal is simply a truth waiting to be displayed 'in action'.

What I find fascinating is whether the principal comes from the narrative or the narrative from the principal. I'm open to the possibility that the answer is both or neither, but it seems strange to think of having one without the other.

What do you mean by a narrative? Because I don't see why a narrative is needed, but I might mean something different than you.

 

[sarxweh]

What do you mean by a narrative? Because I don't see why a narrative is needed, but I might mean something different than you.

Well, I didn't think I meant anything special by it, but maybe I do think of narrative differently than its bare word definition. I found this on wiki:

Along with exposition, argumentation, and description, narration, broadly defined, is one of four rhetorical modes of discourse.

...such as painting (with the modern art movements refusing the narrative in favor of the abstract and conceptual) that describes a sequence of events.

The word derives from the Latin verb narrare, "to tell", which is derived from the adjective gnarus, "knowing" or "skilled".

I guess i mean narrative in the same sense as seen above where abstract art can be said to "refuse the narrative" structure.

With art as an example, the principals of light and color value are possible to portray in a painting without the structure of a purpose, such as a mallard, waterfall, or a kings court.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Incidentally, to me, a narrative does not necessarily refer to a fictional story. For instance, science can have narratives.

Here is one:

In ancient times, people thought that the world was flat. But empirically-minded people discovered reasons to think that the Earth may have had a curved shape after all. For instance, Aristotle had noticed that the Earth had cast a circular shadow on the Moon during a lunar eclipse, and others at around the same time calculated the curvature of the Earth using the angle of shadows at different latitudes. As Science sharpened its methods, scientists could give clear reasons why the Earth is round, and now flat-earthism is regarded as an ignorant superstition.

Here is another:

At one time, people believed that the entire universe was little larger than the Earth. It may have been covered by a sky dome, or perhaps it included space for the planets as well, possibly embedded in rotating concentric crystalline spheres. Human beings were centrally important in such a view.

However, we learned that the Solar System is actually just a minuscule part of a galaxy, and even our galaxy is just a minuscule part of the billions of galaxies in a gargantuan universe. We had to learn to be humble about our place in the universe.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Paradoxum]

Well, I didn't think I meant anything special by it, but maybe I do think of narrative differently than its bare word definition. I found this on wiki:

I guess i mean narrative in the same sense as seen above where abstract art can be said to "refuse the narrative" structure.

With art as an example, the principals of light and color value are possible to portray in a painting without the structure of a purpose, such as a mallard, waterfall, or a kings court.

I still don't know what you mean. Can you give an example, or two, of a narrative?

If I said: 'Liberty (explained elsewhere on this thread) is good... for example, you should be free to smoke cannabis if you want to and it doesn't harm anyone'. I wouldn't say that is a narrative... I'd say that is an example of the principle in action.

 

[Resha Caner]

Incidentally, to me, a narrative does not necessarily refer to a fictional story. For instance, science can have narratives.

I would agree.

I still don't know what you mean. Can you give an example, or two, of a narrative?

IMO a narrative attempts to address issues with qualitative statements. The only way to concretely transfer knowledge is through the quantitative. But not all knowledge is quantitative.

So, when I say, "My preference for the sport of baseball is about more than physical exercise," and you ask, "Why?" my response is, "Let me tell you a story." At that point, I am not using words to define my preference. Rather, I am using words to refer to an experience that I hope we have in common.

So, narrative uses words to connect experiences that the words themselves fail to explain. Examples:

1) A historical narrative: John Adams by David McCullough helps explain what it means to be an American

2) A fictional narrative: The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkein helps explain (among other things) why someone will sacrifice their personal well-being for the sake of others.

 

[sarxweh]

I still don't know what you mean. Can you give an example, or two, of a narrative?

If I said: 'Liberty (explained elsewhere on this thread) is good... for example, you should be free to smoke cannabis if you want to and it doesn't harm anyone'. I wouldn't say that is a narrative... I'd say that is an example of the principle in action.

I will think about some examples... I like the two given above (resha caner). Not sure if that's what you mean though.

Maybe if we change the language:
"Liberty is good" is propositional where the rationality for its goodness is expositional.

Is the proposition meaningless? Or doesn't it have a rational meaning behind it?

I think that's the art argument. Even a dot on a canvas can "make a point"

Though that may seem like a silly pun, the narrative title "make a point" not only displays the meaning, but is the principal itself.

Without exposition, the proposition "liberty is good" has no meaning

 

[Paradoxum]

IMO a narrative attempts to address issues with qualitative statements. The only way to concretely transfer knowledge is through the quantitative. But not all knowledge is quantitative.

What do you mean by 'qualitative statements'?

So, when I say, "My preference for the sport of baseball is about more than physical exercise," and you ask, "Why?" my response is, "Let me tell you a story." At that point, I am not using words to define my preference. Rather, I am using words to refer to an experience that I hope we have in common.

Or you could just tell me it's fun, or it makes you feel like part of a community, instead of telling a story.

So, narrative uses words to connect experiences that the words themselves fail to explain. Examples:

1) A historical narrative: John Adams by David McCullough helps explain what it means to be an American

Well, literally it means to be a legal citizen of the US.

2) A fictional narrative: The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkein helps explain (among other things) why someone will sacrifice their personal well-being for the sake of others.

Maybe the books are different, but the films didn't really explain that alot. I'm guessing it's because Frodo cares more about freedom, or other people, than his well-being. I don't see why you need to read massive books to understand that.

The problem is that I don't know why the stories are needed when you could just explain what you mean. That isn't to say that examples of the principle in action aren't useful.

I'm not saying your definitely wrong... I just don't understand it.

I will think about some examples... I like the two given above (resha caner). Not sure if that's what you mean though.

Maybe if we change the language:
"Liberty is good" is propositional where the rationality for its goodness is expositional.

Is the proposition meaningless? Or doesn't it have a rational meaning behind it?

I think that's the art argument. Even a dot on a canvas can "make a point"

Though that may seem like a silly pun, the narrative title "make a point" not only displays the meaning, but is the principal itself.

Without exposition, the proposition "liberty is good" has no meaning

I agree that the statement needs more explanation, but that explanation doesn't need to be in the form of a story.

 

[Resha Caner]

What do you mean by 'qualitative statements'?

A quantitative statement is one with an objective measure that everyone can agree to. Example #1: The KC Royals beat the LA Angels 3-2.

A qualitative statement is about something that isn't measured. Example #2: Baseball is fun.

Some would disagree with the second statement. Even though they would agree with the first statement, they could easily think baseball isn't fun.

Or you could just tell me it's fun, or it makes you feel like part of a community, instead of telling a story.

Those words don't explain how I feel about baseball. It would leave you with an incomplete, even possibly an erroneous picture of what baseball means to me.

Well, literally it means to be a legal citizen of the US.

That's not what I'm talking about. Someone could jump through the legal hoops of becoming a naturalized U.S. citizen, but that would not make them culturally American.

The problem is that I don't know why the stories are needed when you could just explain what you mean. That isn't to say that examples of the principle in action aren't useful.

I'm not saying your definitely wrong... I just don't understand it.

So I see. Do you think you could walk into a support group of people struggling with some problem you don't have - PTSD, alcoholism, victims of abuse, whatever - and effectively counsel them?