Making sense of the stories we tell

[Eudaimonist]

Making Sense of the Stories We Tell | TGC | The Gospel Coalition

Babbage showed how the Christian master narrative made sense of all these other dark, gripping, and moving narratives.
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It also helped me make sense of everything, even the works of literature written by often passionately anti-Christian authors. It helped me see that human beings may hold down the knowledge of God’s reality (Rom. 1:18ff.), but in order to suppress and hold it down, they must actually possess it at some level. They know the truth, but they don’t know it. And that is why parts of biblical truth can often be found—sometimes expressed beautifully and clearly—right alongside the trivial or the false in the cultural products of the world.

Christianity is so influential in the culture that I wouldn't be surprised that many non-Christians look at society through the Christian lens to some extent. That doesn't mean believing "deep down" that all of Christianity is true, just that Christian themes (such as a need for love or forgiveness) may occasionally have some truth to them.

Personally, I find that reading Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged also adds to my experience of literature, even when it is clear that Ayn Rand's narrative has had no direct influence on that literature. Any "master narrative" (a narrative that gives a fairly comprehensive view of things) can function in this way. Any narrative is a lens through which one may examine and evaluate other narratives.

What narratives function as such a lens in your life? How do you see this issue?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Paradoxum]

What narratives function as such a lens in your life? How do you see this issue?

I'm not sure if I understand the question. What do you think a lens is, or what does it do?

Would 'naturalistic political and moral liberalism' be an answer to the question?

I can't think a specific book. I like 'On Liberty' by J.S.Mill, but I wouldn't say I'm a utilitarian.

 

[Received]

I think Christianity is pretty much massively influential in our perspective of things (our values and beliefs which constitute our narrative lenses), not necessarily because of the qualities of Christianity (although it's hard not to see it as such for many things) but because, very simply, it got there first. This goes with science, the view of truth as something worth attaining (even Nietzsche points out rightly that in secular society, even including himself, we have a religious sort of optimism in truth as something that leads to good things in the end), the laws we have, the ethics alongside these laws (insofar as deontology stands, as well as virtue ethics from a post-Aristotelean perspective in New Testament literature and Thomism, but not consequentialism), and other things.

So our lenses are hugely influenced by Christianity. So what? To say that gives merit to Christianity is an appeal to tradition, a fallacy.

 

[mindlight]

What narratives function as such a lens in your life? How do you see this issue?

I would hope the Master Narrative of Christianity was the dominant and purifying force here. On a more superficial level i have been greatly enamored by three main narratives.

Tom Clancys engagement with the technological and geopolitical realities of our times and in effect the meaning of American mastery and the dangers it confronts.

Ben Bovas Grand Tour of the Solar system which although atheistic in much of its concepts and its erroneous belief in life on every planet maps out a vision of humanity as a space faring society.

Tolkeins Lord of the Rings with its faith in the insignificant and the small things of this world overthrowing the great and evil and powerful. A narrative that recognises the struggle and sacrifice that is actually required to make a better world and that life though not easy can be hopeful if engaged with courage and determination.

Narratives fit interests and visions. But each needs testing and each are overthrown in time. I am already dissatisfied with each of the above narratives for instance because my experience of modern realities jars with them and causes me to question their assumptions. I would love to have the time and discipline to rewrite each of them. Tom Clancy faith in exceptional people for instance does not square with the American or human experience. I am longing for someone to write a good Christian vision of a spare faring humanity. Tolkeins world is ultimately fantastical and the disconnect with reality too great. There is an inherent racism in suggesting that Orcs and Goblins can only be evil and Elves good for instance.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I think I have an extrnal locus of control, by and large, yet instead of being "fatalistic" in a natural-scientific cum existential sense, meaning "the universe is here and I've been thrown into it" I have a more personalistc theistic stance of "God-did-it".

I think I have the ELC becuae I feel I am a very intuitive as opposed to planning type, (in the sense of Myers Briggs psychological types), so I have little sense of control over my longer term actions if that means "right, today I'll do x,y,z." When it comes to long term I work with intuiuitive sense of "vision" rather than planning a specific course of behavior.


Because I am so intuiuitive "vision based" my narratives tend not to be that well defined, or expressly stated, I think. Rather than refer to a text as a reference point and work things out "legalistically", or "precisely" from that, I have instead a vague emotion cum imagination mixture swirling slowly through the days, which act as a melting pot and basis my more blurry, soft and ineffable frames of reference.

Add a few social encounters, and some zikr (like "La Illaha illl~Allah"), and you got me. I think that "remembrance of God" may be similar to "placement meditation" in Buddhism, a focal point on which to concentrate the mind and keep it calm and happy. God belief helps softenn the starkness of existence, and the afterlife beliefs I have give me hope and help motivate religious attitude.

I thinkt that maybe me being a Muslim suggests this and that political attitude through association (especially to politically minded people), but I dont go into politics that much, as advised by both Buddhist sages and Neitzsche. Who am I to try to wrest control the world? But... -don't go there.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I'm not sure if I understand the question. What do you think a lens is, or what does it do?

By lens, I mean a tool that helps to shape the way in which you look at things and helps you to notice things that other people might not notice. For instance, if one is familiar with Christian narratives, it will become much easier to understand literature written in Christian-influenced societies, and one will notice the themes much better.

Would 'naturalistic political and moral liberalism' be an answer to the question?

I'd say definitely yes.

I can't think a specific book. I like 'On Liberty' by J.S.Mill, but I wouldn't say I'm a utilitarian.

One hundred points to Gryffindor!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think I have an extrnal locus of control, by and large, yet instead of being "fatalistic" in a natural-scientific cum existential sense, meaning "the universe is here and I've been thrown into it" I have a more personalistc theistic stance of "God-did-it".

I understand your meaning. So am I correct that you believe in some form of divine providence?

I think I have the ELC becuae I feel I am a very intuitive as opposed to planning type

Interesting self-analysis, but I score very heavily towards the intuitive, and I take a moderate position on internal and external influences. (Much more internal than, say, the movie "Mr. Nobody" which seems to take an extreme ELC view.)

Because I am so intuiuitive "vision based" my narratives tend not to be that well defined, or expressly stated, I think.

They are more abstract, perhaps?

I think that "remembrance of God" may be similar to "placement meditation" in Buddhism, a focal point on which to concentrate the mind and keep it calm and happy.

I understand.

I thinkt that maybe me being a Muslim suggests this

How have Muslim narratives influenced you? What do you find attractive about them?

How did you become a Muslim? I never saw that one coming.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I am longing for someone to write a good Christian vision of a spare faring humanity

Have you tried C.S. Lewis's science fiction? E.g., Perelandra?

There is an inherent racism in suggesting that Orcs and Goblins can only be evil and Elves good for instance.

Elves can be evil. Just read The Silmarillion.

Regarding Orcs, I don't think that Tolkien viewed them as irredeemable. But they were a twisting of other beings, and so they presumably were inclined towards evil. I don't think that Tolkien was making a comment about other races of human beings on our Earth. They were a comment on the evil that lurks in Men's hearts, I think.

It is interesting that Sauron was corrupted by Morgoth, and wasn't evil at the start. Even Morgoth (as Melkor) wasn't evil at the start.

Tolkien's letter 153


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Paradoxum]

By lens, I mean a tool that helps to shape the way in which you look at things and helps you to notice things that other people might not notice. For instance, if one is familiar with Christian narratives, it will become much easier to understand literature written in Christian-influenced societies, and one will notice the themes much better.

Well I suppose my ex-Christian-ness is also an influence then.

I'd say definitely yes.

One hundred points to Gryffindor!

I think I prefer Ravenclaw.

Mark[/QUOTE]

 

[mindlight]

Have you tried C.S. Lewis's science fiction? E.g., Perelandra?

I need to read those but I already know how I am going to react to them from the Wikipedia prasi of them. The science is 1930s and the engagement with the reality of the actual planets of Mars and Venus is purely speculative and as time has shown false. There is a place for Metaphor and making points about humanities struggle with evil but the symbols we use have to connect to reality at some point. Ben Bovas science is both good and false. His own speculative energies represent the outpouring of evolutionary assumptions and falsifications about how life originated. God may have created other beings in this vast universe but scientifically our solar system is currently observed to be a magnificent desolation devoid of life. CS Lewis gets the moral outlook right but this is ruined by the speculative nature of his science. A lot of Ben Bovas science and theorising about how man will resolve many of the dilemmas of space travel is interesting and maybe even prophetic. But the theorising about life forms is tainted and speculative because of his commitment to evolution and will probably prove false.

Elves can be evil. Just read The Silmarillion.

Regarding Orcs, I don't think that Tolkien viewed them as irredeemable. But they were a twisting of other beings, and so they presumably were inclined towards evil. I don't think that Tolkien was making a comment about other races of human beings on our Earth. They were a comment on the evil that lurks in Men's hearts, I think.

It is interesting that Sauron was corrupted by Morgoth, and wasn't evil at the start. Even Morgoth (as Melkor) wasn't evil at the start.

Tolkien's letter 153


eudaimonia,

Mark

I have read the Silmarillion and the ambition and creativity exhibited in Tolkeins creation of an entire parallel universe is astounding. But it is not a real story by comparison with the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. These books i continually reread but the Silmarillion is not a book i return to as regularly.

Tolkeins view of the development of evil is quite biblical whether of Sauron or Morgoth. I was always most impressed by Aragorn whose humility, ability, courage and leadership gave a picture of a kind of Christian Warrior King. Again though 2 of the most profound Christian writers of the last century spoke metaphors about God and Christ into a fantastical world of heroic but speculative metaphors. These books are pre-science and pre a thorough historical analysis. They speak divine truths people can grasp but it is an effort to translate them into our own universe. A Christian writer today needs to confront an unreal generation who live out their lives in their heads and who frankly spend too much time in Middle Earth and Narnia and not enough time dealing with the evils of this world, of murderous false religion or decadent academia/ media and the falsities and demands of our world economic system. He needs to debunk myths without conceding the future to false theories about the development of life itself. He needs to present truth in history and talk about what is possible and what we have good reason to hope for. When we colonise the solar system our milestones will be experiences of God on desolate planets where we build cathedrals to our Creator and tell stories of how He alone made the journey through the darkness possible.

 

[quatona]

The Prince and the Magician

 

[sarxweh]

Any narrative is a lens through which one may examine and evaluate other narratives.

What narratives function as such a lens in your life? How do you see this issue?

eudaimonia,

Mark

I will answer, but first I wonder: when you say "any narrative", do you mean to imply a deconstructionist perspective which likewise would imply a lack of a story's ultimate/objective meaning? For if "any story is a way to interpret any other story", where is the ultimate story by which we OUGHT to begin? Apart from a master narrative, all stories would be meaningless in your statement - no?

And yet, if a master narrative holds the key to interpret other stories, what is the point of individual experiences?

Our favorite good story, after all impresses us, because we feel it tells our personal story in some way.

In that sense, a master narrative is simply the best coalition of our experiences that we have heard to date.

Maybe its Narnia. Maybe its romeo and Juliet. Maybe its nietzsche.

Personally, my narrative is my failure, and biblical promises. Those are about it for me functionally, where I wake up and want and need, and fall asleep every day. For the most part, that can really suck, and also be more than the greatest thrill. Just depends on when you catch me.

My brother reads the fiction. Hahahaha

 

[Eudaimonist]

I will answer, but first I wonder: when you say "any narrative", do you mean to imply a deconstructionist perspective which likewise would imply a lack of a story's ultimate/objective meaning?

No, a story may have some truth.

For if "any story is a way to interpret any other story", where is the ultimate story by which we OUGHT to begin? Apart from a master narrative, all stories would be meaningless in your statement - no?

There is no "ultimate story". There is only reality. We make stories about reality. Those stories may be true or not, or perhaps only partly true and partly false, or capture only part of the truth.

And yet, if a master narrative holds the key to interpret other stories, what is the point of individual experiences?

How else are narratives created or validated except through personal experience? I'm not saying that the master (most influential) narrative holds the key, but rather a key that fits many locks in one's culture.

Our favorite good story, after all impresses us, because we feel it tells our personal story in some way.

In that sense, a master narrative is simply the best coalition of our experiences that we have heard to date.

That is one's own narrative. It may be useful.

Maybe its Narnia. Maybe its romeo and Juliet. Maybe its nietzsche.

Personally, my narrative is my failure, and biblical promises. Those are about it for me functionally, where I wake up and want and need, and fall asleep every day. For the most part, that can really suck, and also be more than the greatest thrill. Just depends on when you catch me.

My brother reads the fiction. Hahahaha

Okay, thanks for replying.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I understand your meaning. So am I correct that you believe in some form of divine providence?

"If any good comes thank God, and if any evil comes blame yourself" is a Muslim saying. I like to tru y and believe this, but as a friend mentioned it may give one false hope in faith, if there is no God after all.

They are more abstract, perhaps?

To be honest I am not sure.

How have Muslim narratives influenced you? What do you find attractive about them?

I like the idea of a God you can talk to, who does good. I also like the idea of paradise. I havd a buddhist teacher once who said something like, "Islam is a desire realm practice, so if you like to have your desires fulfilled, than practice Islam." So if you see life as a "text" of sorts, then the basic meta-narrative "creation - trial - justice" provieds an overview of life.

How did you become a Muslim? I never saw that one coming.

Initally I was a bit broken down and homeless, sad to say, and I had had religious expreince (volunratary position: something of a Christian extremist at the time, no possessions whatsoever which was fun in the winter especially).

I liked the idea of monotheism though, and Islam seemd to value that.


So I converted. This was 10 years or more ago. Then i read all about it, and learned to pray etc. I really like the prayer style.

I klnow I have identified with various faiths since then but my local "imam" learned leader) says I was probably confused about whethet I was a proper muslim, and to just get on with being one now.


I like the way the faith is practiced in the free world, and becaue I was "watsted" most of the time as a youth, I see it as some kind of social influence that helps people stay healthy.

 

[Resha Caner]

Aside from the Bible, I don't know that there is any one narrative. Rather, there are several. Crime and Punishment comes to mind, or Shakespeare's history cycle. In terms of being an American, it would probably have been Tom Sawyer, Johnny Tremain, or Centennial when I was younger, but A Year in the Maine Woods as I got older.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

What about astrobiology, abiogenesis and evolution, they're cool!

I like to see verses like this in light of science:

When your Lord said to the angels, 'I am placing a successor on earth.' They said, 'Will You place in it someone who will cause corruption in it and shed blood, while we declare Your praises and sanctify You?' He said, 'I know what you do not know."

Implying biological lineage?

And in the Earth are neighbouring tracts, vineyards and ploughed lands, and date-palms, like and unlike, which are watered with one water. And we have made some of them to excel others in fruit. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who have sense.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful

Triggers thoughts of change in gene frequencies, or differential success.

Here there may be no "master narrative" like science uber alles - but rather an interplay between two texts, and life....

 

[FireDragon76]

I disagree that Christianity is the monolithic narrative in our culture. In some parts of our culture, Hinduism or Zen have been very influential, and this actually is not a new trend, going back at least 100 years (Thoreau was influenced by Hinduism and Buddhism). A great impetus behind the "new thought" movement that influenced several Christian sects was American contact with Hinduism.

 

[BL2KTN]

Well, let's just all be happy that deism, natural law, and rational thought greatly influenced the world's first modern republic/democracy.

=)

 

[Tree of Life]

What narratives function as such a lens in your life? How do you see this issue?


eudaimonia,

Mark

For me, obviously, the Christian narrative functions as my master narrative through which I interpret all other data and narratives. But that's not entirely true. I'm not a perfect Christian so I am influenced by other, what I would consider to be false, narratives all the time. My life is a constant recalibrating to the Christian narrative.

 

[Tree of Life]

I was thinking about this subject today. Truth is really best conveyed through narrative. A lot of times in philosophical arenas we're bandying about propositions, concepts, and ideas that are disembodied from narrative. We just end up bashing our ideas and concepts together and don't get very far in persuading others of our positions.

That's because ideas, concepts, and propositions that are disembodied from narrative are not very persuasive. Narrative. Story. Those things are truly persuasive. They take the ideas and get them down into the soul and truly convince a man.

You'll fashion your life around a narrative, not simply an idea.

You'll live for a narrative. Maybe even die for one.