Making Saints

[Rhamiel]

As early as the 2nd century Christians who venerated saints were accused of idolatry. Apparantly when Polycarp was martryred, the magistrate refused to give the Christians his charred remains because he was afraid they would "abandon the Crucified and worship this man" in His place.

but this was not done with all relics, no decree went out saying that all veneration of relics was bad, so this shows that the Church would not give the remains of St.Polycarp over to some christians with an unbalanced devotion to the man, just like a Doctor will not gave pain pills to a junkie but will give them to someone who needs them.

Not all saints were even Christians and some were fictional characters.

like who? this is the only part I really disagree with, the rest of it just sounds like an athiests understanding of Christian history

 

[christianmomof3]

but this was not done with all relics, no decree went out saying that all veneration of relics was bad, so this shows that the Church would not give the remains of St.Polycarp over to some christians with an unbalanced devotion to the man, just like a Doctor will not gave pain pills to a junkie but will give them to someone who needs them.
like who? this is the only part I really disagree with, the rest of it just sounds like an athiests understanding of Christian history

St. Christopher, whose name means "Christ bearer" was a figure of ancient legend. He was not a real person. He was a fictional character. St. Veronica, whose name means icon true image is from a story of a woman on the way to calvary whow wiped the face of jesus and an image of His face was on that rag - I can't find that story in the Bible. Michael was an angel and not human. Some "Saints" were buddhist or other religions and not Christian.

Christian families woul feast at the saints tombs or spend the night in shrines to gain saints protection just as pagans did at shrines such as that of Asklepios http://www.theoi.com/Cult/AsklepiosCult.html

Several of the church fathers opposed the veneration of all relics on the grounds that they were given the sort of reverence that should be given to God alone.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

St. Christopher, whose name means "Christ bearer" was a figure of ancient legend. He was not a real person.....

And you know for a fact he didn't exist? How do you know this?

 

[christianmomof3]

And you know for a fact he didn't exist? How do you know this?

Actually, no one knows for a fact if he did or did not exist. Why would you pray to someone who may never have existed? Does not the very fact that no one really knows for sure bother anyone? Do you think God is pleased to have people praying to possibly fictional characters? How does that bring you into fellowship with God? How does that build up the Body of Christ?

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Actually, no one knows for a fact if he did or did not exist.....

Yet you keep posting that he did not exist.

 

[christianmomof3]

How about St. Josaphat who is actually Buddha? So those who pray to St. Josaphat are praying to Buddha. Do you think that God enjoys that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

How about St. Josaphat who is actually Buddha? So those who pray to St. Josaphat are praying to Buddha. Do you think that God enjoys that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat

The largest database of saints that I know of is right here (these are the "J's"):
http://www.catholic.org/saints/stindex.php?lst=J

The only three Josephats I see listed are:
Bl. Josaphat Chichov
Bl. Josaphata Michaelina Hordashevska
St. Josaphat of Polotsk

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

BTW: Regarding praying to the saints, I posted a good post in the "Tradition" thread, here:
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=51143946&postcount=265

 

[Polycarp1]

The Church (whether you mean the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, or the mystical company of all believers) does not make saints. Only God makes saints.

What happens in canonization or other recognition processes is that the church recognizes that God has made someone a saint who seems a good exemplar of one or more Christian virtues, and formally witnesses to that fact and holds him/her up as an example to the faithful.

And I think you may have precisely the wrong idea about my patron and namesake. The 'magistrate' (Statius Quadratus) was out to eliminate this vile atheistic cult from his province. Imagine: these people wouldn't honor Zeus and the gods and goddesses like all good citizens should; the only people they would bend the knee before were the god of the Jews and some religious teacher that the local governor had given over for execution in the previous century. He ordered Polycarp executed because he refused to acknowledge his duty under the law to conform to what he knew to be wrong, and then refused to surrender Polycarp's body to the Christians for burial (so they stole it).

 

[MrPolo]

I asked a while back about the origin of the practice of praying to "Saints" and no one really knew when it started or why, but we did find out it is not in the Bible

I remember responding in that thread that it WAS from the Bible, and yet I didn't make the list of bullet points.

 

[christianmomof3]

I saw mention of St. Brigid on a tv show about St. Patrick last night:

That she shares both her name and her feast day with those of the earlier pagan goddess Brigid may indicate that Saint Brigid is partially or entirely a fictional creation based on the pagan figure in order to convert Celts to Christianity; the euhemerization of pagan figures and tradition was a common practice of Christian missionaries. However she may merely have been named after her. Given the struggle Christian missionaries faced in their efforts to preach the Gospel in Ireland, even though they Christianized some elements, the adoption of a pagan goddess into the Communion of Saints may have been an effort to Christianize one of the most enduring pagan goddesses. Brigid the goddess was an oracle and was celebrated as the predictor of the growing season's success. Her day, Feb 2, was thus converted to Groundhog Day as a day of prediction for the length of winter and the coming of spring. In Ireland there is an early struggle with the continued celebration of Groundhog Day, given its pagan origins. Brigid is also celebrated as a time when the growing sun must be encouraged throughout the coldest of winter months. Brigid or Imbolc is the pagan holiday for this celebration among pagans and is marked with the making and burning of candles to symbolize this important process. In Christian traditions the day called Candlemas, was added to the calendar to coincide with Brigid and is the day of purification of the Virgin Mary, marked with a candlelight ceremony.
Evidence for a political function of the stories comes from detailed political analysis which demonstrates that they have been created or at least manipulated to document the power of Kildare over surrounding regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid_of_Kildare

 

[Polycarp1]

I saw mention of St. Brigid on a tv show about St. Patrick last night:

I've run into this before. Brigid appears to have been a real person, a follower of Christ after St. Patrick, originally named after the Celtic goddess -- and evemtually, as folktales will do, the story of Brigid the Christian woman picked up elements of the stories of Brigid the mythical goddess.

Francis of Assisi is a real person, about whose life there are are a lot of contemprary accounts. He's as well documented as any medieval figure can be. But around him have grown up a bunch of legendary stories.

To give you an example straight from Scripture, look at Acts 17:34. Dionysius of Mars Hill (the Areopagus of Athens) was an early convert, probably the first student of Greek philosophy other than Paul and Luke themselves to accept Christ. That's Scriptural. But what happened was that during the Middle Ages quite a lot of writings, including the first complete study of Angelology and that of Christian mysticism, were falsely attributed to him.

Don't reject the "great cloud of witnesses" because some people can't be satisfied with the known truth and insist on embroidering onto it.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I saw mention of St. Brigid on a tv show about St. Patrick last night:

Oh ya, TV is gonna give an accurate view of our faith. Right.

 

[Rhamiel]

I agree with Polycarp1's point, there have been a lot of legands that have grew around some of the saints, St.George for example, but that does not mean they were not real, just latter writers added more stories onto them, the fact that St.Briged was named after a pagan goddess does not surprise me one bit, I bet a lot of people who converted to Christianity were named after pagans figures and gods

 

[E.C.]

I agree with Polycarp1's point, there have been a lot of legands that have grew around some of the saints, St.George for example, but that does not mean they were not real, just latter writers added more stories onto them, the fact that St.Briged was named after a pagan goddess does not surprise me one bit, I bet a lot of people who converted to Christianity were named after pagans figures and gods

But does that part (the bold) really matter?

After all, the cross in Roman times used to be a symbol of death, torture, bad things and evil. Now because of Christ it is a symbol of life, nourishment, good things and God.

Only God can take an evil thing and make it good. Or as my dad says, "take a bad situation and turn it into a patriotic one". Names are not exempt from the realm of formerly-bad-things-gone-good.

 

[Polycarp1]

For the record, the overwhelming majority of canonizations (and the equivalent in other churches) were done in response to popular acclamation of someone known to them as having been a particularly good exemplar of how to do whatever it is that person did to the glory of God. Martyrs, confessors, intercessors, theologians, compassionate pastoral type people, evangelists... whatever it is that he or she did, they did it to the glory of God.

My wife and I are mild supporters, in the Episcopal Church, of one such "cause" (what the Catholics call proposing someone for canonization) -- that of Mychal Judge, O.F.M., the priest killed while ministering to firemen at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. We were at the first Eucharist we know of anywhere dedicated to his cause, in Raleigh on the following Saturday. So far the Vatican has not seen fit to advance Fr. Judge's cause.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

For the record, the overwhelming majority of canonizations (and the equivalent in other churches) were done in response to popular acclamation of someone known to them as having been a particularly good exemplar of how to do whatever it is that person did to the glory of God. Martyrs, confessors, intercessors, theologians, compassionate pastoral type people, evangelists... whatever it is that he or she did, they did it to the glory of God.

My wife and I are mild supporters, in the Episcopal Church, of one such "cause" (what the Catholics call proposing someone for canonization) -- that of Mychal Judge, O.F.M., the priest killed while ministering to firemen at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. We were at the first Eucharist we know of anywhere dedicated to his cause, in Raleigh on the following Saturday. So far the Vatican has not seen fit to advance Fr. Judge's cause.

You know how slow the Vatican usually moves.
That is definiteloy a wonderful sentiment on your part though.