Making America Hate Again

[Vylo]

America has always loved and hated but never has any US President been hated so much.

1. That's actually debatable. Buchanan was despised and still ranks as the worst president to ever grace the white house.

2. That says a lot about Trump, his character, his policies, and how he ran his campaign. You can't throw bombs all campaign and then complain the fires are out of control.

 

[Rion]

Ok.

1. That's actually debatable. Buchanan was despised and still ranks as the worst president to ever grace the white house.

What's kind of hilarious is that there's a fairly solid argument to make that he was likely gay, yet he's so odorous that the LGBT community doesn't acknowledge him.

 

[iluvatar5150]

If that's what they were about, most wouldn't have cared. However, the calls for the death of cops, the riots, etc. and even their demands website showed that they were not simply about perceived injustice in police violence.

Baloney. People absolutely did care. That's why "All lives matter" became a thing - because people did care, and because they objected to the original message of BLM. Once some in the BLM movement started behaving badly, that just provided ammo to the anti-BLM crowd. If it was merely an issue of the bad behavior within the BLM movement, then nobody would have cared about Colin Kaepernick's benign protests. But they did care about it - a lot.

 

[Rion]

Baloney. People absolutely did care. That's why "All lives matter" became a thing - because people did care, and because they objected to the original message of BLM. Once some in the BLM movement started behaving badly, that just provided ammo to the anti-BLM crowd. If it was merely an issue of the bad behavior within the BLM movement, then nobody would have cared about Colin Kaepernick's benign protests. But they did care about it - a lot.

All Lives Matter began because people saw the BLM movement becoming increasingly tribal/black nationalist leaning. It was already starting, but got a massive boost after the Paris attack in 2015, when BLM supporters started a rather... offensive hashtag in response.

 

[iluvatar5150]

All Lives Matter began because people saw the BLM movement becoming increasingly tribal/black nationalist leaning. It was already starting, but got a massive boost after the Paris attack in 2015, when BLM supporters started a rather... offensive hashtag in response.

You might want to check your dates. The Paris attacks weren't until Nov of 2015, but at that point, the argument had already been the subject of national polling:
Black Lives Matter Or All Lives Matter? - Rasmussen Reports™

questions in the Democratic primary debate,
Democratic debate: Do black lives matter?

and a statements from the White House:
President Obama defends Black Lives Matter movement




And while I don't condone the hashtag response to the Paris attacks, the point was to highlight the double standards being employed when expressing all sorts of support for the Paris victims and apathy towards the victims of other tragedies.

You're deluding yourself if you think the negative response to BLM was based primarily on the bad actors within the movement. Racism is alive and well in this country - and even on this board. This was posted a few days ago:
School Budget Cut Due to High White Student Population

 

[Rion]

You might want to check your dates. The Paris attacks weren't until Nov of 2015, but at that point, the argument had already been the subject of national polling:
Black Lives Matter Or All Lives Matter? - Rasmussen Reports™

questions in the Democratic primary debate,
Democratic debate: Do black lives matter?

and a statements from the White House:
President Obama defends Black Lives Matter movement


And while I don't condone the hashtag response to the Paris attacks, the point was to highlight the double standards being employed when expressing all sorts of support for the Paris victims and apathy towards the victims of other tragedies.

You might want to check your reading?

It was already starting, but got a massive boost after the Paris attack in 2015, when BLM supporters started a rather... offensive hashtag in response.

As I said, people were getting tired of the tribalistic/nationalistic direction of BLM, and so started responding with ALM to show that they were supportive of the idea in general, but not the racist undertones that had begun to fester within the movement. As for the Paris thing, , it was done because they were butthurt that the attention was being taken away from them.

 

[Willie T]

I don't see hatred from the right. Not that there aren't some hateful people out there. All the hatred and intolerance, death threats, attacks, violence, silencing, riots, and so forth are all coming from the left. when was the last time you saw republicans shut down a Hillary rally? Riot? Break windows? Trespass and steal signs from people's yards? Did any Hillary campaign quarters get firebombed? Did Hillary supporters or any democrats get egged or pepper sprayed?

Why don't you mention or cover any of this?

And yes, a lot of these reports are fake hoaxes. It's been proven and reported upon. So the media covers them, doesn't retract them when they're proven false, so people think all this stuff is happening and for the most part, it's not. And there's no evidence it's all coming from the right. How do you know it wasn't Isis supporters making death threats?

Why don't you bring up the dramatic increase of violent crime in heavily democratic cities?

I'm not denying right-wing terror happens, but you guys seem to act like the left-wing is pure and innocent when it's them causing all the division and spewing hatred, screaming bloody murder in the streets, rioting and attacking people. You talk about young white men being more likely to kill, but what about young black men? they statistically commit the most violent crime in this country. Black-on-black crime and murder is at record highs. No comment from you guys. The media barely covers it.

Of all the posts here, this one rings of the most truth.

Liberals can, and do, engage in this ultra violent stuff at every turn.... even groups of them physically beating Trump supporters......... sometimes going so far as outright murder of police officers. But, oh no, a Conservative better not even speak a word of discontent.

 

[iluvatar5150]

As I said, people were getting tired of the tribalistic/nationalistic direction of BLM, and so started responding with ALM to show that they were supportive of the idea in general, but not the racist undertones that had begun to fester within the movement.

Stating "All lives matter" isn't being support of the idea in general - it's being dismissive of the idea. "Black lives matter" is an attempt to highlight the ongoing discrimination against blacks and the lack of consideration given to the struggles they face. "All lives matter" blurs those concerns and pretends as if everybody's dealing with the same kinds of issues.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Of all the posts here, this one rings of the most truth.

If only rings true if you're ignorant of the violence and hatred coming from the right.

 

[Rion]

Stating "All lives matter" isn't being support of the idea in general - it's being dismissive of the idea. "Black lives matter" is an attempt to highlight the ongoing discrimination against blacks and the lack of consideration given to the struggles they face. "All lives matter" blurs those concerns and pretends as if everybody's dealing with the same kinds of issues.

Only in the fantasy world of intersectional justice and critical race theory.

 

[Armoured]

Only in the fantasy world of intersectional justice and critical race theory.

Or the world of "concern over systematic or endemic racism. You know, either/or.

 

[Rion]

Or the world of "concern over systematic or endemic racism. You know, either/or.

Same thing.

 

[Armoured]

Same thing.

Not remotely, but thanks for playing.

 

[Rion]

Not remotely, but thanks for playing.

Well, to be fair, you're from what, Britain? Maybe England really is systematically racist, IDK.

In America, however, we are not a closed system that holds back blacks because of their color. If this were the case, native born blacks and foreign born blacks would have similar results in terms of incomes, etc. However, this is not the case. The average is roughly 10k a year difference in income. They generally fit within the range of other immigrants and the rest of the U.S., although they do lag behind other immigrants in some areas, while still being above native-born blacks here. Why? My guess is married households, as they are at 50%, native born blacks are at 36%, Rest of America is at 60%, and other immigrants are at 64%.

 

[Armoured]

Well, to be fair, you're from what, Britain?

Well, to be fair, I've gone to the trouble of remembering what country you're from.

In America, however, we are not a closed system that holds back blacks because of their color. If this were the case, native born blacks and foreign born blacks would have similar results in terms of incomes, etc. However, this is not the case. The average is roughly 10k a year difference in income. They generally fit within the range of other immigrants and the rest of the U.S., although they do lag behind other immigrants in some areas, while still being above native-born blacks here. Why? My guess is married households, as they are at 50%, native born blacks are at 36%, Rest of America is at 60%, and other immigrants are at 64%.

If income is your only measure of equality, maybe.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Well, to be fair, you're from what, Britain? Maybe England really is systematically racist, IDK.

In America, however, we are not a closed system that holds back blacks because of their color. If this were the case, native born blacks and foreign born blacks would have similar results in terms of incomes, etc. However, this is not the case. The average is roughly 10k a year difference in income. They generally fit within the range of other immigrants and the rest of the U.S., although they do lag behind other immigrants in some areas, while still being above native-born blacks here. Why? My guess is married households, as they are at 50%, native born blacks are at 36%, Rest of America is at 60%, and other immigrants are at 64%.

You assume that systemic racism would treat blacks of all geographic origins identically. This isn't remotely true. I just finished reading this:
The Dignity of Working Men: Morality and the Boundaries of Race, Class, and Immigration: Michèle Lamont: 9780674009929: Amazon.com: Books

In it, he compares and contrasts the differences in attitudes among workers in the US and France of different socioeconomic classes towards folks in other classes and towards folks from other backgrounds. In both countries, there's a stark difference in the attitudes held towards immigrants and the attitudes towards native-born individuals that's separate from race.

Additionally, immigrants are by their very nature somewhat more motivated, driven, and type-a than the average population. It would stand to reason that they would fare better economically than the average non-immigrant. Our immigration policies also tend to favor skilled, educated professionals, who would have higher earning potential.

Your position also ignores the fact that native-born blacks are still suffering from the centuries of oppression that impacted their parents and other ancestors. An individual is not merely the product of their own choices, but also of the outside factors that influenced their childhood, parents, grandparents, and neighborhoods. The sorts of abuses committed against blacks in America can have consequences that last generations. They're not necessarily starting at the same point as a recent black immigrant.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

You might want to check your dates. The Paris attacks weren't until Nov of 2015, but at that point, the argument had already been the subject of national polling:
Black Lives Matter Or All Lives Matter? - Rasmussen Reports™

questions in the Democratic primary debate,
Democratic debate: Do black lives matter?

and a statements from the White House:
President Obama defends Black Lives Matter movement




And while I don't condone the hashtag response to the Paris attacks, the point was to highlight the double standards being employed when expressing all sorts of support for the Paris victims and apathy towards the victims of other tragedies.

You're deluding yourself if you think the negative response to BLM was based primarily on the bad actors within the movement. Racism is alive and well in this country - and even on this board. This was posted a few days ago:
School Budget Cut Due to High White Student Population

QFT

 

[Rion]

You assume that systemic racism would treat blacks of all geographic origins identically. This isn't remotely true. I just finished reading this:
The Dignity of Working Men: Morality and the Boundaries of Race, Class, and Immigration: Michèle Lamont: 9780674009929: Amazon.com: Books

In it, he

Did you just assume their gender? (Sorry, couldn't resist)

In it, he compares and contrasts the differences in attitudes among workers in the US and France of different socioeconomic classes towards folks in other classes and towards folks from other backgrounds. In both countries, there's a stark difference in the attitudes held towards immigrants and the attitudes towards native-born individuals that's separate from race.

Additionally, immigrants are by their very nature somewhat more motivated, driven, and type-a than the average population. It would stand to reason that they would fare better economically than the average non-immigrant. Our immigration policies also tend to favor skilled, educated professionals, who would have higher earning potential.

Seriously though, I'm aware that they are more motivated and driven. I work with plenty of them in my profession. It's pure anecdotal, but the harshest criticisms I've heard about native blacks have come from immigrants who were from Africa, TBH.

Your position also ignores the fact that native-born blacks are still suffering from the centuries of oppression that impacted their parents and other ancestors. An individual is not merely the product of their own choices, but also of the outside factors that influenced their childhood, parents, grandparents, and neighborhoods. The sorts of abuses committed against blacks in America can have consequences that last generations. They're not necessarily starting at the same point as a recent black immigrant.

Actually, it doesn't. I just don't think it holds anywhere near the weight people try to ascribe it. For all of my dislike of Dubya, he had one good phrase, which was the "soft bigotry of low expectations." I'm actually part Cherokee. My great grand-mother was disowned by her entire family for marrying outside her race, and 'halfbreeds' were not well received during the 20's and 30's. My family line would never have been confused as rich, but we've been a heck of a lot better off than those who stayed on the reservations or lived off of government funding.

The same is true for those of all colors who fell into a similar trap with Johnson's so-called "Great Society." It wasn't done out of spite or malice, but the way to Hell is paved with good intentions, as the saying goes. One of the major things that the GS did, was encourage women to not have a man in the home, as it drastically reduced benefits. In essence, the U.S. Gov't took over the role of the father in many homes, and this has been the primary cause of the trouble with many households in the last couple of generations. Larry Elders has done numerous talks about this, which I would encourage you to watch/listen to when you have a chance.

 

[Fantine]

Trump is the master of "bait and switch." It's what got him elected.

And, in most cases, the "switch" will carry a huge sting, as the working class takes a beating again and again from his proposals.

Example: he said (on video) he would "repeal Obamacare and make it better."

The bill he was wheeling and dealing in the House to get signed was exponentially worse than Obamacare--and that's a "switch" that would sting 24 million people...or more.

People who are betrayed by flim-flam men often do become haters....

They sure hated Bernie Madoff...flim-flam man to millionaires.

I don't feel betrayed by Donald Trump, because it seemed blatantly obvious to me that his promises were 100% fake. You can only feel betrayed by flim-flam men if you've been taken in by them.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Stating "All lives matter" isn't being support of the idea in general - it's being dismissive of the idea. "Black lives matter" is an attempt to highlight the ongoing discrimination against blacks and the lack of consideration given to the struggles they face. "All lives matter" blurs those concerns and pretends as if everybody's dealing with the same kinds of issues.

As I said, people ridicule and admonish BLM, but apologize for nationalist and supremacist groups - even the FACT BACKED UP BY THE FBI that white supremacists have infiltrated the American police force.

Report: FBI Finds White Supremacists Infiltrated Law Enforcement Agencies

Anyone with eyes open, who rejects ignorance (or, are forced to see it because they are the targets) knew this was happening SIXTY YEARS AGO. But, you see how people deny deny deny? They will ignore those statistics, acknowledge them, but claim they are not true for *them* (there is no such thing as MY TRUTH, only truth,) and even fail at connecting dots.

Instead it is easier to blame it on Obama - even while that man is a civilian and jet skiing, bothering no one. Or, it is easier to claim this and that about races, location and I have even heard someone comment on the GENERALIZED parenting of black men on these forums. These forums with the namesake that should be considered...

And, it isn't majority atheists/agnostics who are ignorant of the racism and prejudicial structure of America. That, by itself, alarms me - but I understand (this is another example of history repeating because of ignorance and gullibility.)

Those people dont want to take responsibility for their ignorance of how deep racism actually penetrates the American framework. They want people to believe that America is perfectly fair, the cops are 100% righteous, and the people never tolerate racism. Many Americans more than tolerate racism because they are categorically REMOVED from its affects.

You won't be able to change their mind, or pique an interest in changing their behavior by displaying intelligent, responsible behavior.

It won't do anything explaining to these people the intricacies of a racist and prejudicial system from which they benefit. They know very well what they are doing, and they don't want to hear it. It is nonsense to them.

Explaining a well-thought out argument even with sources won't change any minds or make the situation better. It just wont; it never did.

These same people are/will teach their kids, and they will teach their kids. There won't be a problem until it affects them. The , they will cry and sling snot hoping people will sympathize.

Good on people for explaining things that happen beyond the veil even if it is painful to hear. But, it will take more than an intelligent, open minded person with an intelligent argument to convince them there is actually a problem. And, they won't see a problem until something comparable to the paradigm of the last 500 years is reversed onto, or projected out to [parties.] Then, they will sling snot and cry, but will be remembered for their stance in helping their fellow human receive all possible opportunity every other person receives.