Make-up: What do Orthodox say?

[Khaleas]

Off Topic /
In our parish, if anyone dare let their cellphones 'peep', the Liturgy stops dead -and the person gets "The Look" from Batushka. I have kept my cell on Silent. The other evening at Vespers, the light on the Icons on the Iconostasis were so beautiful, that I took out my cell and photographed them during a break in the chanting. I'm so glad I was able to "Capture the moment". But Usually I do switch off my cell for DL. No body else needs me, except God, at that moment.

Off Topic/

Kolya

In a sense I wish they would stop DL too, maybe it would send the message. But I think I'm going to invest in some nice no-cellphone signs to put by the phosphora and candle tables.
And if your wife is pregnant and you come to service, sit in the back and put it on beep so you can sneak out and talk. Don't sit in the middle of everyone, get up and go out and talk after your cell rings (and there was no preggo wife involved). ARRRRRRGHHH!!!

/end rant... this just bugs me to no end... and I come from the land of NOKIA and we do everything with our cells (banking, vending machines, pay parking and it's this massive beep when you get off an airplane and everyone turn on their cells).

 

[33ad]

Make-up: I'm in Dallas - 'nuff said.

Head coverings: I try to always wear one in church, and it's probably a 40/60 split among other women at our parish. Pants are worn by many of the women - I occasionally wear them to Vespers, but prefer dresses. But then, I would definitely prefer pants to short dresses/skirts. I also try not to wear anything too showy (including jewelry) - anything that would draw attention.
Mary

My wife has a range of scarves from the sheer to the mantilla types. All the women in our parish cover their heads. A rare visitor may sometimes not. But at the candle counter, they shove a scarve across for you if you forgot one.

At vespers the other night, a young lady turned up at the candle counter in a stylish pair of jeans. But she went to the Ladies to change, and returned in a more modest black dress and scarf.

I guess it boils down to what your idea of Respect to God is.

Kolya

 

[Khaleas]

At vespers the other night, a young lady turned up at the candle counter in a stylish pair of jeans. But she went to the Ladies to change, and returned in a more modest black dress and scarf.

I guess it boils down to what your idea of Respect to God is.

Kolya

Reminds me of the first time I went to DL at my current church. I had two other sets of clothes in the back seat as I didn't know what to expect. So I parked to the side and sat and peeked at people... and found out we have all sorts.

I don't know it is so much our idea of Respect, but more the customs of each individual church. I was expecting my church to be more conservative as it is quite Russian but found that it was very welcoming and non-judgemental to others and I felt very comfortable right away (which couldn't be said about the other one I visited). I've had enough of the staring and checking others out in the Lutheran church.

 

[33ad]

<H3>1 Samuel 16:7 (New International Version)

7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

</H3>That's the crux of the matter.

Kolya

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I've been mulling over this question since yesterday. I decided to look for Orthodox articles that might address this subject. I found none. I've stopped wearing make-up to church because I don't want to put more emphasis on my face than is needed. I am there to worship, not to draw attention to my face.

However, I see nothing wrong with modest make-up on a day to day basis. I don't paint myself up as though I just had a Mary Kay make-over , but I feel better about myself if my skin looks better and I have some color on my face. I have very dark hair with fair skin. If I show up for a social event with no make-up, I am bombarded with questions and comments like "Are you sick today?", or "Wow, you look tired!". It's hard to think well of yourself when everyone around you thinks you look sick and tired.

And yes, I'm still single. I doubt there are many men out there specifically looking for a pasty-faced girl who looks somewhat anemic.

 

[Wiffey]

GDE, I can relate! I'm not pale, but I have a LOT of yellow undertones in my skin that make me look sallow when I don't add a little makeup. I think I look like death warmed over. My husband says I look fine with or without makeup, but then again he thought I looked cute in the hospital after my last operation (and I KNOW I looked like a train wreck)!


So if I'm going out anywhere special, I need to add color so as not to frighten small children, the elderly, and local wildlife...

 

[33ad]

And yes, I'm still single. I doubt there are many men out there specifically looking for a pasty-faced girl who looks somewhat anemic.

GDE, stop being so pessimistic!!! I married my wife for her brains, not her looks. But I still think she's the most beautiful woman on earth.

Kolya

 

[Khaleas]

GDE, stop being so pessimistic!!! I married my wife for her brains, not her looks. But I still think she's the most beautiful woman on earth.

Kolya

Absolutely! Honestly you should be more concerned with what comes out of his mouth than what he looks like... cuz if that seems intelligent then he'll be smart enough not to let you get away.
My husband got his his aviator call sign due to this whole issue. All his classmates apparently thought I was cute and wondered why I was dating him. So they joked... well, it can't be the money, can't be the location, and man you're not Backstreet Boy. His callsign in "Pipe" LOL... and NO it's not the reason I married him...

PM me if you don't get it, I'm trying to keep this clean and not go into sailor mentality...

 

[33ad]

If you're talking 'sailor mentality', then I read you loud and clear. LOL.
Of course that's not why you married him! Hehe.

Kolya

 

[Khaleas]

If you're talking 'sailor mentality', then I read you loud and clear. LOL.
Of course that's not why you married him! Hehe.

Kolya

It's actually one of the more flattering names in his class..
one guy is 'Shed' because he managed to burn down his shed
another one is 'Jitters' because he gets so nervous before the flight and passed out once
and was grabbed by "Breezy" so he didn't fall but 'Breezy' ripped his pants thus the name. And then they have 'Truffles' which is "because it can be both a boy or a girl aka not really for any reason".
Callsigns are quite interesting... and can definitely get you harassed if it's something silly... his former Commanding Officer was 'Poodle'.

Ok, that was a whole lot of blah, blah but I'm bored waiting for my class to start...

 

[33ad]

You typing from class now? I wondered when you were going off line.
I'm shutting down for the night now. It's only 9:45pm, but Seraphima needs some quality time.

Hope your project is up to muster with the teacher. ('Specially with us chatting all night)

Good night.

Kolya

 

[Eusebios]

There is an interesting article on tattoos on the OCA web site here. It was written by Fr. John Matusiak.

I like the cross on my right shoulder, too, Eusebios, although I'm not sure having it tattooed there was the smartest thing I've ever done.

Anyway, you and Vasya and I should form a club!

Maximus,
Yes, I know the article, I've read it a couple of times and always get a kick out of the ending
I guess it boils down to reason and intention. I had my Greek Cross done to show, in a sense, to whom it is that I belong. It helps remind me on a daily basis, of the one who suffered and died for me, that I might become a partaker of the Divine nature.
Thanks for including the link! And hey, I'm all about having a club!!
In Xp,
Eusebios.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

The TAW consensus seems to be that makeup, hair-coloring, tatts, etc. are acceptable, according to the standards of the time and place. Interesting. What about wigs? IIRC, there is a canon forbidding women from wearing wigs. There might be one forbidding cosmetics, as well.

I am going to revisit this post by Prawnik, as I have noted a number of posts on the theme of tattooing.

As mentioned previously, I have a tattoo of a budded Orthodox cross on my right shoulder. The intent was to stake ground... Ie. this body belongs to the Lord. To sanctify, to remind, to claim.

However, despite the fact that I did it for good reasons, I still believed at the time that a tattoo was second best (or, a sin). No tattoos being best, of course. I believed it to be a form of self-mutilation (as I still do) even if a nice-looking form. And I didn't and don't see any reason that the OT prohibition on tattoos should be abolished. ... I certainly don't feel that the Church Fathers suddenly thought differently on the subject than the writer of the Mosaic Law. Self-mutilation is self-mutilation, even if it is condoned by the society one lives in (Ethiopian, Egyptian, Bulgarian, or modern North American).

I know that not everyone feels the same as me on this count. And because there is sufficient discrepancy in Orthodox teaching and attitudes on this subject, I certainly don't feel justified in preaching on the subject. All I can say is that (while I am making no moves to remove my tattoo) I still feel that I sinned in getting it put on, and that I would discourage my children from getting them. And that any tattoo-negative sentiments I may express are my own and rise out of personal conviction.

 

[Prawnik]

Interesting. How would you feel if you didn't know it was a sin at the time?

Or if it were a pious act, as many Ethiopians have a cross tattooed upon their forehead and the back of their hand, for the specific purpose that the mark of the Beast cannot be placed there? In their culture, this is not considered to be self-mutilation.

Don't get me wrong, I am merely asking questions, and what I wrote previously was only my description of what seemed to me to be the board consensus. I am not arguing for relativism in ethics, although I think that we moderns often go too far in expecting people in previous times to share our values. Anyone who has ever listened to a politically correct grad student excoriate Cortez or Stanley knows what I am talking about.

 

[PandaBear]

Thank you for all the interesting posts on this. I'm not fully Orthodox so my opinions are of the "outsider," so I enjoyed reading and thinking and coming up with questions my next conversation with Father.

PB

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Interesting. How would you feel if you didn't know it was a sin at the time?

IMHO, there is a seamless line of teaching from the time of Moses to the time of the Church Fathers. And that my actions, or my thoughts at the time of said actions, cannot change that teaching.

Admittedly, a part of me would be still attracted to it as a sign of the unusual, the distinctive, the individual. And another part of me would appreciate the art. Those are the sides that usually speak out when a friend asks me to admire their tattoo. However, if I am asked whether I approve or oppose tattoos in general, I reference Mosaic Law and the Fathers' passages on self-mutilation. And it will definitely be those last that I will reference if my son or daughter comes asking me if they can get one.

Or if it were a pious act, as many Ethiopians have a cross tattooed upon their forehead and the back of their hand, for the specific purpose that the mark of the Beast cannot be placed there? In their culture, this is not considered to be self-mutilation.

1. Sure, I understand that it is not considered self-mutilation in their culture. At the same time, many Ethiopians practice FGM. This is also not considered mutilation, and is also cultural (though not, AFAIK, a sign of piety).

2. Just because we do something out of piety does not makes it intrinsically right. Killing heathens in the name of God (as in the Crusades) was an act of piety for many, yet terribly wrong. Self-flagellation was practised in Trappist monasteries up until Vatican II as a form of piety, yet Orthodox condemn that. I may, out of piety, persuade and manipulate my [non-existent] girlfriend to become Orthodox, and yet act against the very nature of God and His Church all the while.

Don't get me wrong, I am merely asking questions, and what I wrote previously was only my description of what seemed to me to be the board consensus. I am not arguing for relativism in ethics, although I think that we moderns often go too far in expecting people in previous times to share our values. Anyone who has ever listened to a politically correct grad student excoriate Cortez or Stanley knows what I am talking about.

I understand that, Prawnik. And I am merely giving you my answers, and demonstrating that there is not, in fact, a consensus on the subject of tattoos in this forum. As previously stated, my views on make-up (or hair-colouring) are not nearly so well formed. However, I have given a lot more thought to this particular subject, and have had the pleasure of a very interesting conversation with a tattooed monk on it as well. Here I feel more sure of myself.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

I live in a country where PC reigns. 'Tis sad, but true. However, one gets used to being criticized for daring to talk or comment on something that is not applicable to you. I don't think I would dare bring up the topic of make-up with most of my friends. Why? I have never had the pleasure of wearing make-up, and I still have yet to be female, let alone female in a world where men judge by appearances... My voice would be disregarded were I to speak.

"You are not a woman! How dare you comment on what women should or should not do!"

Of course, this presupposes that I am positing a more conservative line of thinking, even if in debate format. (Ironically, if I were to support the current causes of feminism, I might well be lauded as an enlightened male. Double standard?)

Ideally, one wants to be able to debate things without having to live it. I should be able to comment on the issues facing inner-city youth, though I am not one. I should be able to comment on the results of North-American racism, though I am not black. I should be able to comment on the tragedy of abortion, though I wasn't aborted, and I am not a woman. I should be able to comment on music, though I am not a musician. These are different examples (with vastly different weight) where I have faced the accusation of inherant bias.

However, I know that I do not live in an intellectual world, where all ideas can be debated by any and all, providing only that their arguments are logical. Rather, I live in a world where my bias and prejudice are assumed.

It is nice, therefore, to comment briefly on tattoos. Here I am at last free of the accusation of discriminational prejudice. Of judging another just because I am not "one of them". I do not look on the tattooed as a foreign species to subjugate due to my "biassed", "provincial", and/or "culturally colonialistic" opinions. I can't. I am tattooed myself, and so I can happily say that I think I did wrongly and to so say without fear of PC reprisal.

[/RANT]

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Fair enough Vasya!
(I'm not offended at all... if others are, then they need a thicker skin underneath all that makeup! LOL)

I think then we should look at the actual definition of "feminine modesty". Now certainly, this includes covering and modest clothing, etc. And in fact, you may be right and it would include make up...let's just say so, for the sake of this discussion...here's my take:

You can cover a woman from head to toe, and hide her hair, cover her (bare and unpainted) face...but you can't turn a woman's heart to modesty....Anyone who thinks that women who look like this :

don't have any sexual, immoral thoughts, "impure" dreams, etc., hasn't got a proper take on this....

Covering is fine. No make up is fine. Conversion of the heart is what counts....I have spent a lot of time on the water fronts and the docks of this world....and I can assure you, that heavy makeup is not required in a prostitute's job description....

Well said, Suzannah.

Two points strike me. The first is that what we do outwardly is frequently a sign of the inward person. Not necessarily, I admit, but there is a connection between the outward action and the inner heart. Orthodox believe this. This is part of the reason we venerate things, or cross ourselves. Out of the inward comes the outward, which then reminds and reeducates the inward.

The second point is that while makeup is not required in a prostitute's job description, it certainly historically was the province of the prostitute. Please - I beg you - do not lynch me! I am not suggesting that women who wear makeup are prostitutes. I am just saying that historically this was the case, and that makeup was originally designed to entice and to attract through emphasis on the erotic. We forget that in our day and age when we are over-saturated with eros. We forget that makeup serves to mimic women in a state of arousal. Deepened lips? Lipstick. Flushed cheeks? Blush. Luminous eyes? Eyeliner and eyeshadow to emphasize the eyes. I don't want to go into much detail here, as this is a public Christian forum and decency must be upheld. However, one wonders what signals women are sending (deliberately or no) when they wear makeup. Perhaps it doesn't matter. Perhaps in our culture where eros is displayed everywhere, makeup doesn't matter two bits. But perhaps it does. I just don't think that we are addressing this issue in Christian circles. I don't think that we have a well-articulated defense of what we do or don't do. I don't think that we have bothered to look past our cultural norms to address the implications of our actions. We should. Whatever is the ultimate decision (makeup or no), I think that Christians should be bolder to articulate why on earth we do what we do. We may be in the world, but we are not of it, and as a consequence we need to examine all the places in which our behaviour intersects and mimics the behaviour of the pagans about us.

My two cents.

 

[countrymouse33ad]

However, if I am asked whether I approve or oppose tattoos in general, I reference Mosaic Law and the Fathers' passages on self-mutilation. And it will definitely be those last that I will reference if my son or daughter comes asking me if they can get one.

IIRC, the Mosaic Law forbade self-mutilation for certain purposes, i.e., as signs of mourning, or as imitations of practices of other religions. It was not non-specific. If I am mistaken, please correct me. The Law actually commanded one form of self-mutilation - circumcision. Before you object that it was done to babies by priests, remember that there was no one else to circumcise Abraham but Abraham himself. I would also feel safe in theorizing that ear-piercing (and perhaps nose-piercing) for women for decorative purposes was an on-going practice, a social matter, and was not considered mutilation.

With that, I have a question, since I cannot remember (but I also can not yet claim to be any kind of expert) injunctions from the early Fathers against anything but self-castration (for reason of which Origen was initially denied priestly orders). Could you provide some quotes regarding other forms of self-mutilation?

 

[Monica child of God 1]

We forget that makeup serves to mimic women in a state of arousal. Deepened lips? Lipstick. Flushed cheeks? Blush. Luminous eyes? Eyeliner and eyeshadow to emphasize the eyes. I don't want to go into much detail here, as this is a public Christian forum and decency must be upheld. However, one wonders what signals women are sending (deliberately or no) when they wear makeup.

Vasya,
I agree with most of what you said. I think part of the appeal of make-up is that it mimics arousal. But it also mimics youth and health. When my kids are well and happy, their skin is smooth and fine textured, they have roses in their cheeks, their eyes are bright and their mouths are plump and pinkish. For centuries in some cultures, kohl has been used to line the eyes of women and children. So wearing minimal to moderate make up (a little sheen on the lips, some color on the cheeks, a little liner on the eyes) doesn't necessarily have to be about arousal.

Monica