Make a list of all your Anabaptist's doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fat

[Major1]

Not really. I base my belief that the Church's mission to baptize includes infants because Christ commanded His Church to baptize, and there's no reason for Christians to deny Jesus to their children.



You are the one wanting an explicit statement in Scripture that says to baptize infants. So if you need explicit commands in Scripture to baptize different sorts of people based on age, or race, or other arbitrary categories, then it is noteworthy that Scripture doesn't present anything like this.

There is no command in Scripture to baptize the elderly.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize adults.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize children.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize women.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize white people.

Now, for me, this isn't a problem. I don't need the Bible to say which sorts of people can be baptized, because all classes of people are included in Christ's singular and all-inclusive command, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit." All nations means all nations. All people, Jew and Gentile, male and female, young and old, black and white, slave and free, of every tribe, of every tongue, rich, poor, tall, short, fat, thin. It doesn't matter. Jesus Christ is for everybody. Christ died for all. God does not show favoritism, He shows no partiality. The Gospel is the Gospel for everyone.

-CryptoLutheran

I have to disagree. Again.....This is all about YOU wanting to allow the baptisms of infants. Please, go right ahead and do it. I do not care.

All I am saying to you is that YOU can not do it and claim that the Bible directs YOU to do so.

There are NO, NONE, ZERO Scriptures which tell us to baptize infants.

You list of people that the Scripture does not specifically list is silly.

You then said...………...
"Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Absolutely true and correct. But there again ALL of those you listed have been BORN INTO THE WORLD.
They can THINK, READ, MAKE DECISIONS and ACCEPT THE LORD JESUS BY FAITH!!!!

What must a man do to be saved??????????

Acts 16:30-31.........
"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the LORD Jesus, and you will be saved...……….".

Can an Infant believe?

This practice of baptizing infants stems from the false teaching of “original sin.” The Bible does not give one single example or command of any baby being baptized anywhere. The Bible does not teach babies are born separated from God. On the contrary, Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven belongs to little children…

 

[Major1]

Opps...again.

 

[Major1]

Double post.

 

[Major1]

The water here is the water of the flood.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him." - 1 Peter 3:

The rescuing of Noah and his family through the flood points to Baptism. Note that Peter says that Baptism is salvific, "Baptism ... now saves you."

I really do appreciate how hard you are having to work to prove something that does not exist.

"Noah and his family were saved by water; i.e. it was the instrument of their being saved through the good providence of God."

So the water of baptism, typifying the regenerating influence of the Holy Spirit, is the means of salvation to all those who receive this Holy Spirit in its quickening, cleansing efficacy. Now as the waters of the flood could not have saved Noah and his family, had they not made use of the ark; so the water of baptism saves no man, but as it is the means of his getting his heart purified by the Holy Spirit, and typifying to him that purification.

The ark was not immersed in the water; had it been so they must all have perished; but it was borne up on the water, and sprinkled with the rain that fell from heaven. This text, as far as I can see, says nothing in behalf of immersion in baptism; but is rather, from the circumstance mentioned above, in favor of sprinkling. In either case, it is not the sprinkling, washing, or cleansing the body, that can be of any avail to the salvation of the soul, but the answer of a good conscience towards God - the internal evidence and external proof that the soul is purified in the laver of regeneration, and the person enabled to walk in newness of life. We are therefore strongly cautioned here, not to rest in the letter, but to look for the substance.
1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary

 

[Major1]

Ah. I've heard sermons in at least 3 Catholic churches, and I can tell you those sermons sounded like the couple or 3 sermons I heard in Baptist churches.

I'm sure there will be sermons in either denomination that do not sound like those in the other.



But many will.

All I said and still say is that you might want to make sure you were in a REAL Baptist church.

There are not a lot of things that Baptists and Catholics can agree on, theologically speaking so as to compare sermons.

 

[Halbhh]

All I said and still say is that you might want to make sure you were in a REAL Baptist church.

There are not a lot of things that Baptists and Catholics can agree on, theologically speaking so as to compare sermons.

Try going to about 3 or so different Catholic churches and listen to a sermon or two in each, and find out if your theory is correct, I suggest. The appearances and other aspects of the service will be different, and some bits of wordings at the start or close, but take the sermon itself, and then compare just that alone (not the rest). I've heard I suppose over 70 different preachers in my life, due partly to visiting so many churches, and also listening to a variety on the radio and online.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I really do appreciate how hard you are having to work to prove something that does not exist.

Does Scripture not say "this Baptism which now saves you"?

Does the Scripture not say, "All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"?

Does the Scripture not say, " you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"?

Am I working to prove something that doesn't exist, or am I saying exactly word-for-word what the Scriptures themselves say?

I'm saying that we have put on Christ in Baptism. I'm saying that anyone who is baptized has been baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him, and given new life in Him. I'm saying that God uses Baptism to save us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can an Infant believe?

Yes. Since faith is a gift from God, and not a human work.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-17

This practice of baptizing infants stems from the false teaching of “original sin.”

False. The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox practice baptizing infants and do not believe in the Western doctrine of Original Sin. The practice of baptizing infants stems from the fact that Christians have always baptized their children.

The Bible does not give one single example or command of any baby being baptized anywhere.

The Bible does not teach babies are born separated from God. On the contrary, Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven belongs to little children…

Are you saying that you subscribe to Pelagianism?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

Does Scripture not say "this Baptism which now saves you"?

Does the Scripture not say, "All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"?

Does the Scripture not say, " you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"?

Am I working to prove something that doesn't exist, or am I saying exactly word-for-word what the Scriptures themselves say?

I'm saying that we have put on Christ in Baptism. I'm saying that anyone who is baptized has been baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him, and given new life in Him. I'm saying that God uses Baptism to save us.

-CryptoLutheran

As usual, someone who WANTS to believe that water baptism always uses
1 Pet. 3:21 which says...…..
"And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

This is the only verse that says "baptism now saves you."

But, is it teaching that we must be baptized n water to be saved? No. But, but to rightly understand it, we need to look at its context.

1 Peter 3:18-22......…...
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him,".

The above translation in verse 21 from the NASB is a good translation:
"and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you."

The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon.
It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. It is what the NIV translates as "symbolizes," the NASB as "corresponding to that," and the KJV as "like figure." Baptism, then, is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "baptism corresponds to what?"

What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family - the flood or the ark?
Obviously, it was the Ark.

 

[Major1]

Does Scripture not say "this Baptism which now saves you"?

Does the Scripture not say, "All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"?

Does the Scripture not say, " you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"?

Am I working to prove something that doesn't exist, or am I saying exactly word-for-word what the Scriptures themselves say?

I'm saying that we have put on Christ in Baptism. I'm saying that anyone who is baptized has been baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him, and given new life in Him. I'm saying that God uses Baptism to save us.

-CryptoLutheran

Galatians 3:27...……….English Standard Version
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ".

IV. What kind of baptism is in view here? Perhaps the biggest mistake made by those who teach that a verse like Galatians 3:27 teaches salvation-by-baptism is that they assume when the word “baptism” is used the text can only be speaking of water baptism. Remember the Scripture does not only speak about water baptism, it speaks about “baptisms” (Gr. baptisimon), one of which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit whereby He (the Holy Spirit) immerses a believer into union with Christ. John the Baptist, for example, said that while he baptized with water one was coming after him who would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Lk. 3:16b). The apostle Paul wrote of this baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:12,13 saying:

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

That’s the baptism that is in view in Galatians 3:27. So besides the fact that there is no mention of water in Galatians 3:27 (an important fact to note), it’s the baptism of the Holy Spirit that works coterminously with justification by faith – that’s the connection between verse 26 and 27! To be a son of God through faith in Christ Jesus (vs. 26) is to have been baptized by the Spirit into Christ – spiritually speaking (vs. 27).

Does Galatians 3:27 Teach Salvation By Water Baptism?

 

[Major1]

Does Scripture not say "this Baptism which now saves you"?

Does the Scripture not say, "All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"?

Does the Scripture not say, " you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"?

Am I working to prove something that doesn't exist, or am I saying exactly word-for-word what the Scriptures themselves say?

I'm saying that we have put on Christ in Baptism. I'm saying that anyone who is baptized has been baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him, and given new life in Him. I'm saying that God uses Baptism to save us.

-CryptoLutheran

You do not seem to be able to post the Scriptures that you are posting.

This one was Romans 6:3-5.............
"you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"?

Again, you have failed to consider the CONTEXT of the Scripture.

Is this Scripture teaching us that baptism is necessary for salvation as you are trying to make it say???

No, it is not. First, we know from the CONTEXT of scripture that salvation is by faith not by faith and something we do. Please take time to read Romans 3:28-30.

Second, we can see from other scriptures that baptism follows faith. Take a look at Acts 16:30-33 where the jailer specifically asks what he must do to be saved and where baptism fits in:

"and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household."

If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul would have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."

In the case of Rom. 6:3-5, being baptized into Christ is a public identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection which is said to be the gospel that saves in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. So then, baptism is a public statement proclaiming that the person is trusting in the sacrifice of Christ.

Baptism by immersion is a perfect symbol for this work of Christ with which the Christian is identifying himself. As Christ died and was raised to a new life, so too the Christian, in Christ, is said to have died (Rom. 6:11; Col. 3:3) and has a new life. This new life of regeneration is by faith - the internal work. Baptism is the external work of identification with Christ. This is why the reference to baptism in the Bible is dealing more with "our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism.
Baptism and Romans 6:3-5 | CARM.org

 

[Major1]

Does Scripture not say "this Baptism which now saves you"?

Does the Scripture not say, "All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"?

Does the Scripture not say, " you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"?

Am I working to prove something that doesn't exist, or am I saying exactly word-for-word what the Scriptures themselves say?

I'm saying that we have put on Christ in Baptism. I'm saying that anyone who is baptized has been baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him, and given new life in Him. I'm saying that God uses Baptism to save us.

-CryptoLutheran

You stated...………..Or rather you asked,
"Am I working to prove something that doesn't exist, or am I saying exactly word-for-word what the Scriptures themselves say?"

YES you are. Clearly, your agenda is to tell all of us what YOU want the Scriptures to say and that is exactly what you are working to do.

It just isn't there my dear friend.

We are saved by grace through faith plus NOTHING ELSE.

Ephesians 2:8-9...…….
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast."

THAT is exactly what the Scriptures actually do say.

 

[Major1]

Yes. Since faith is a gift from God, and not a human work.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-17



False. The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox practice baptizing infants and do not believe in the Western doctrine of Original Sin. The practice of baptizing infants stems from the fact that Christians have always baptized their children.



Are you saying that you subscribe to Pelagianism?

-CryptoLutheran

You stated...………..
"The practice of baptizing infants stems from the fact that Christians have always baptized their children."

And there it is!!!!! You just admitted that infant baptism IS NOT BIBLICAL which is exactly what I have said...…..but instead it is done out of "TRADITIONS".

 

[Major1]

Try going to about 3 or so different Catholic churches and listen to a sermon or two in each, and find out if your theory is correct, I suggest. The appearances and other aspects of the service will be different, and some bits of wordings at the start or close, but take the sermon itself, and then compare just that alone (not the rest). I've heard I suppose over 70 different preachers in my life, due partly to visiting so many churches, and also listening to a variety on the radio and online.

I am sorry my dear friend, but I for one can not agree with you.

If that is YOUR perception then praise the Lord for you. I just can not agree.

I again would say that none of the hundreds of Baptist preachers I have listened to have ever sounded like a Catholic priest's sermon.

But that is just me.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A Baptist church that baptizes "infants" really is not a Baptist church. It may have "Baptist" in its name but not in its theology as Infant Baptism is not found in the Bible.....
NO, not even ONE TIME.

While I do disagree with infant baptism I would say the scriptures are inconclusive both in support of infant baptism and against it. The scriptures mention Cornelius and his household were baptized as well as the jailer and his household whom Paul and Silas baptized. It is possible that infants may have been baptized as well.

 

[Halbhh]

While I do disagree with infant baptism I would say the scriptures are inconclusive both in support of infant baptism and against it. The scriptures mention Cornelius and his household were baptized as well as the jailer and his household whom Paul and Silas baptized. It is possible that infants may have been baptized as well.

That's a good point. One of the things that happens in believer baptism is a public profession of faith, and also a humbling dunking in water, and a washing -- where you are admitting (I was baptized about age 11 if I remember) that you were in need of washing.

Imagining if a believer and a lost person were stranded in the desert and dying of thirst, and had no water, could the lost person not be saved???

Of course he could be saved!

Our Lord is able. He saved one sinner dying on a cross near Him.

So, it's not really the amount of water, but it's the amount of true repentance and confession and coming to Christ.

I don't think I'm informing any of y'all of what you don't know (not any), but only reminding, of course.

But, it's useful to be aware that in churches were infants are baptized, it is then followed up by a public confessing of faith! About age 14 or so. Which is a major thing. And in our church it is called "remember your baptism" or "confirmation of baptism" or some Lutheran could help me no doubt! So, ask: what is baptism? It's by the Lord.

You stated...………..
"The practice of baptizing infants stems from the fact that Christians have always baptized their children."

And there it is!!!!! You just admitted that infant baptism IS NOT BIBLICAL which is exactly what I have said...…..but instead it is done out of "TRADITIONS".

Yes. Since faith is a gift from God, and not a human work.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-17



False. The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox practice baptizing infants and do not believe in the Western doctrine of Original Sin. The practice of baptizing infants stems from the fact that Christians have always baptized their children.



Are you saying that you subscribe to Pelagianism?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's a good point. One of the things that happens in believer baptism is a public profession of faith, and also a humbling dunking in water, and a washing -- where you are admitting (I was baptized about age 11 if I remember) that you were in need of washing.

Imagining if a believer and a lost person were stranded in the desert and dying of thirst, and had no water, could the lost person not be saved???

Of course he could be saved!

Our Lord is able. He saved one sinner dying on a cross near Him.

So, it's not really the amount of water, but it's the amount of true repentance and confession and coming to Christ.

I don't think I'm informing any of y'all of what you don't know (not any), but only reminding, of course.

But, it's useful to be aware that in churches were infants are baptized, it is then followed up by a public confessing of faith! About age 14 or so. Which is a major thing. And in our church it is called "remember your baptism" or "confirmation of baptism" or some Lutheran could help me no doubt! So, ask: what is baptism? It's by the Lord.

I agree and have used that same desert example a few times when discussing the necessity of water baptism.

 

[Major1]

While I do disagree with infant baptism I would say the scriptures are inconclusive both in support of infant baptism and against it. The scriptures mention Cornelius and his household were baptized as well as the jailer and his household whom Paul and Silas baptized. It is possible that infants may have been baptized as well.

You are correct, But, to say that there were infants in the family is reading into the Scriptures what they simply do not say.

That is exactly where "false teaching" comes from brother.

The truth is that there are NO scriptures which tell us to baptize infants....NONE.

When the inspired writers mentioned the so-called “household baptisms,” they said that all believers in the households were baptized. How can an infant BELIEVE????

To assert otherwise is to put an unnecessary strain on the text, and to teach that which contradicts unambiguous, definitive Bible teaching

 

[Major1]

That's a good point. One of the things that happens in believer baptism is a public profession of faith, and also a humbling dunking in water, and a washing -- where you are admitting (I was baptized about age 11 if I remember) that you were in need of washing.

Imagining if a believer and a lost person were stranded in the desert and dying of thirst, and had no water, could the lost person not be saved???

Of course he could be saved!

Our Lord is able. He saved one sinner dying on a cross near Him.

So, it's not really the amount of water, but it's the amount of true repentance and confession and coming to Christ.

I don't think I'm informing any of y'all of what you don't know (not any), but only reminding, of course.

But, it's useful to be aware that in churches were infants are baptized, it is then followed up by a public confessing of faith! About age 14 or so. Which is a major thing. And in our church it is called "remember your baptism" or "confirmation of baptism" or some Lutheran could help me no doubt! So, ask: what is baptism? It's by the Lord.

Speaking of being saved and not baptized on a desert island...…...
I can tell all of you who advocate water baptism, there are NO ATHESISTS in fox holes.

When the enemy is just over the hill and combat is minutes away, EVERYONE wants to get saved but NO ONE ever gets baptized before the battle.

Time does not allow it.

Now.....are ALL of those men saved who asked Christ to be their Saviour…..
Of course not. Is every person sitting in a church saved....Of course not.

The point is.....some were sincere and were in fact saved, but NONE of them were baptized before an imminent battle, I promise you that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are correct, But, to say that there were infants in the family is reading into the Scriptures what they simply do not say.

That is exactly where "false teaching" comes from brother.

The truth is that there are NO scriptures which tell us to baptize infants....NONE.

When the inspired writers mentioned the so-called “household baptisms,” they said that all believers in the households were baptized. How can an infant BELIEVE????

To assert otherwise is to put an unnecessary strain on the text, and to teach that which contradicts unambiguous, definitive Bible teaching

Personally I believe repentance should precede water baptism. Water baptism is the outward symbol or expression of our faith. I was baptized when I was about 5 years old and was not born again. I did not become a new creation. It wasn’t until I was 38 years old that I was actually born again and decided to be baptized a second time as a profession of my faith.