Make a list of all your Anabaptist's doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fat

[Daniel Marsh]

There is some evidence that circumcision has health benefits, including:

A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
A reduced risk of some sexually transmitted diseases in men.
Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).
Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean.

Note: Some studies show that good hygiene can help prevent certain problems with the penis, including infections and swelling, even if the penis is not circumcised. In addition, using a condom during sex will help prevent STDs and other infections.

What are the risks of circumcision?
Like any surgical procedure, there are risks associated with circumcision. However, this risk is low. Problems associated with circumcision include:

Pain
Risk of bleeding and infection at the site of the circumcision
Irritation of the glans
Increased risk of meatitis (inflammation of the opening of the penis)
Risk of injury to the penis
WebMD Medical Reference Reviewed by Jennifer Robinson, MD on November 13, 2018
Circumcision Basics

 

[D.A. Wright]

<staff edit>
You're barking up the wrong tree here. You're not even in the correct forest, I don't think.

Do you believe God made a mistake in commanding a ritual that would, in general, cause positive, lifelong, anti-procreative harm to His people Israel?
<staff edit>
I'm not a particular proponent of circumcision. The medical community seems to hold that the benefits outweigh the risk. I certainly can't do anything to change that. If a formidable lawsuit were in place (as I suspect is coming, if it hasn't already), and it became a point of politics in an election, I seriously doubt it would distract many (including myself) from (arguably) more important matters at hand. I should have known better than to try to ward off this kind of thing. As usual, it only tends to encourage it. I prefer it and neither myself, nor anyone else in my family, have suffered any harm from the procedure, but I haven't the slightest interest in making the practice itself a point of contention, unless it is urged as a religious obligation. In short, you've cast your tackle in the wrong direction, my friend.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

<staff edit>

The parents have the authority to do so --- related to health.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[D.A. Wright]

<staff edit>

It would seem that there is no way to address circumcision in a way that would not be misunderstood, and since I am not the one who originally compared it with both quasi- and Biblical baptism, and I recognize attempts of the enemy of souls to confound discussion, I do hereby wearily bow out.

 

[Major1]

I only know that 5-second version of 'anabaptist', like the thumbnail version: "Anabaptists believe that baptism is valid only when the candidate confesses his or her faith in Christ and wants to be baptized. This believer's baptism is opposed to baptism of infants, who are not able to make a conscious decision to be baptized."
In which case I suppose one such would point to following the teaching from the Early Church 'father' Peter, in Acts 2:38, yes? It's not really controversial to suggest a person should make a choice to follow Christ, at some point or another. In our local church, with infant baptism, we do that same goal -- to make a choice to follow Christ -- with "confirmation", around which an emphasized teaching here is "remember your baptism", and the 'confirmation' actually is understood to mean 'confirmation of baptism' specifically: it's baptism that is being 'confirmed'. Going way back in time to the anabaptists, of which I only have the scantest history, knowing they were persecuted, and that's about it, it seems to me that in effect, it's like the anabaptists were saying, to rephrase: one must confess their faith in Christ, and thus be then born of the Spirit (John 3:5). What brings 'anabaptist' to mind for you? It might be best if you wish to challenge a Baptist church to recognize infant baptism, that you go to some length to explain it more instead. (I've never attended a baptist church past 1 visit to 1 or 2 of them, from curiosity. It was mostly like any other church (including Catholic) in the sound of the sermon). Interestingly to me, here this local church (not a denomination I grew up in myself) actually has water in a basin, in which some will dip their finger and touch their forehead, as it were, remembering or repeating or something their baptism. (I myself was baptized about age 11 or so, in another denomination).

So then in the Baptist churches you attended you heard the Pastor speak about the sinless of Mary and her immaculate conception and assumption?

You heard a Baptist preacher speak on the validity of Purgatory.

You heard a Baptist preacher speak on how we need to do good things to be saved.

You heard a Baptist preacher recommend that infants must be baptized to be saved.

You heard a Baptist preacher explain how important it is to say the Rosary.

My dear friend...…...YOU WERE NOT IN A BAPTIST CHURCH.

 

[Major1]

God instructed the Israelites to literally cut off part of the penis of their male infants. Are you really going to argue that getting wet is any more potentially harmful to a child than cutting off the foreskin?

-CryptoLutheran

The real bottom line here is that there is NO SCRIPTURE that instructs us to baptize infants.

If you want to do it, you are doing because YOU WANT TO and not because God tells you to.

What must a man do to be saved...……...
"BELIEVE UPON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and ye shall be saved".

How many infants have the ability to do that.

 

[Major1]

Such as these?

"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.'" - Luke 18:15-17

"Go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and instructing them in all which I have told you. See, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." - Matthew 28:19-20

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" - Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39

"Then he brought them out and said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.' And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God." - Acts of the Apostles 16:30-34

- Christ insists on not forbidding children from coming to Him, but that we should bring our children to Him. We do this by bringing them to Christ in Baptism, for Christ is there in Baptism as we read in Scripture, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and that we have received a spiritual circumcision and have been buried with Christ in Baptism, "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." (Colossians 2:11-12) So that all who are baptized are of Christ, for Christ is here in Baptism.

- The promises of God attached to Baptism are not merely for us, but also for our children, as St. Peter said, "For the promise is for you and for your children" for the calling of God is to us, our children, and to all. For this reason the Church preaches the Gospel and administers the Sacraments. As the Apostle has written in his epistle to the Romans, "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?" (Romans 10:14)

- So the Church goes forth with the word on her lips to the nations, doing as Christ commanded, preaching the Gospel and making disciples, baptizing them, and instructing them in what Christ has told us. We bring this word to those who have not heard, and we preach this to our children; and we invite all, impartially, to the waters of Baptism. We do not deny God's mercy and grace, we do not deprive our children of the Gospel, but obey Christ's command to preach the Gospel and to baptize. That is His command to His Church.

- When the Spirit works faith in the unbelieving, we do not then turn them away, but welcome them. We do not turn away their children, but welcome them. We do not reject those for whom Christ came, but welcome them. We declare the gates of the Church open, and proclaim all are welcome here in these precious waters, for here in Word and Sacrament Christ is present, and Christ is given.

So the command and promise of God is this: The command is to preach the Gospel and to baptize; and the promise is that God shows no impartiality but rather all sinners are welcome here, for God desires the salvation of all, and Christ has accomplished this for all. And so all have a place at God's Table. For God's Table is peace, for the young and for the old, for the poor and for the rich, for the weak and for the strong. Widow and orphan, homeless, hungry, thirsty, clothed and unclothed, slave and free, male and female. Christ's Table is for all. The invitation to the Banquet of the Lamb has gone forth and to all, and all are welcomed, all are invited, all have a seat at this Table. We deny none, for Christ denies none.

-CryptoLutheran

None of the Scriptures you posted say anything about Baptizing an infant so I am led to ask you why you posted them????

Everything else you posted is your opinion and we all have those. However...……………...

The Bible is abundantly clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes.

In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him. Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ. It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection.

That is not an opinion but is in fact what the Bible tells us.

With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice.

1). An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ.
2). An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ.
3). An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes.

The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Those are the Biblical facts my brother. If you want to believe that infant baptism is necessary, please go right ahead and do so...…….However, you can say that it is recorded, suggested or commanded in the Word of God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized

-

Assumption. Scripture mentions entire households receiving baptism. You are presuming that this excludes infants and young children. And your entire presumption rests upon circular reasoning.

as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him.

That's not biblical.

Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ.

That's not biblical.

It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection.

Again, that's not biblical.

That is not an opinion but is in fact what the Bible tells us.

I don't suppose you'd be willing to actually show where Scripture says that Baptism is a step of obedience for those who already have faith as a public testimony would you?

Because I certainly can show where Scripture says Baptism is union with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; that we are clothed with Christ; that we receive the Holy Spirit, are born again, have our sins forgiven, etc.

So where's your biblical justification for your belief?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The real bottom line here is that there is NO SCRIPTURE that instructs us to baptize infants.

No Scripture explicitly instructs us to baptize the elderly, but there's no reason to withhold Baptism from the elderly just because there's no explicit instruction to do so.

Christ said "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them". He did not say, "Only baptize these certain sorts of people", He said "baptize".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Halbhh]

So then in the Baptist churches you attended you heard the Pastor speak about the sinless of Mary and her immaculate conception and assumption?

What!?

Perhaps I wrote unclearly, or you read unclearly. I'm happy to take the blame though if that's best. Please look again and tell me what sentence seems to suggest that wild conclusion, and I'll try to rectify it!

I don't want to accidentally totally cause confusion with unclear writing.

" It was mostly like any other church (including Catholic) in the sound of the sermon). "

The "sound of the sermon" is not a list of doctrines, but what a sermon is like to listen to: would it fit right into another church in another denomination. In my experience about 95%-99% of the time the answer to that is yes, in the 8 denominations I've attended. The sermons are generally interchangeable, and the preachers could have just switched places and the congregations would have been able to learn from these wide variety of preachers and sermons from other denominations.

 

[Major1]

-

Assumption. Scripture mentions entire households receiving baptism. You are presuming that this excludes infants and young children. And your entire presumption rests upon circular reasoning.



That's not biblical.



That's not biblical.



Again, that's not biblical.



I don't suppose you'd be willing to actually show where Scripture says that Baptism is a step of obedience for those who already have faith as a public testimony would you?

Because I certainly can show where Scripture says Baptism is union with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; that we are clothed with Christ; that we receive the Holy Spirit, are born again, have our sins forgiven, etc.

So where's your biblical justification for your belief?

-CryptoLutheran

It is obvious that your idea of what is Biblical and what I think is Biblical is two different things.

You said......…......
"Assumption. Scripture mentions entire households receiving baptism. You are presuming that this excludes infants and young children. And your entire presumption rests upon circular reasoning."

WRONG.
The assumption is from you my friend. Yes Scripture mentions households being baptized, but NO WHERE is there a Scripture that include an INFANT. It is therefor an assumption on your part that an infant was included in the "Household".

I said………………..
(Speaking of baptism) "as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him".

You then said...........
"That's not biblical."

Bible says in 1 Peter 3:21...................
"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


I said.................
"Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ.

You said............
"That's not biblical."

WRONG!

Matthew 28:19-20........
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Acts 2:37.........
“What shall we do?”

In the next verse (38) did he not command them to “be baptized” ?
Was not their baptism thus an act of obedience to a command?

I said...........
"It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection."

You then said...…………...
"Again, that's not biblical."

WRONG!

Romans 6:4.................
"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

You then said.............
"I don't suppose you'd be willing to actually show where Scripture says that Baptism is a step of obedience for those who already have faith as a public testimony would you?"

I just did.

Baptism is not a requirement of salvation. For someone to teach that faith + water baptism is a requirement for salvation, is to teach another gospel than was taught by Paul. 1Co_15:1-4.

Paul did not make water baptism a part of his gospel message and went so far as to say that Christ did not send him to baptize but only to spread the gospel message. (1Co_1:17 ).This would seem to be a major oversight if water baptism were indeed necessary as no one would have been saved.

If baptism were necessary for salvation then how do you deal with the paralytic man Mat_9:2, the penitent woman Luke7:37-50, the tax collector Luke18:13-14, and the thief on the cross Luke23:39-43.

Was Jesus just misleading them? Did Jesus the God man lie? Were they still lost in their sins since none were baptized?

 

[Major1]

No Scripture explicitly instructs us to baptize the elderly, but there's no reason to withhold Baptism from the elderly just because there's no explicit instruction to do so.

Christ said "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them". He did not say, "Only baptize these certain sorts of people", He said "baptize".

-CryptoLutheran

There is no explicit instruction to baptize a woman who is pregnant either.

You are rationalizing something that you want to see done. Baptism by water plays no part in salvation!

 

[Major1]

No Scripture explicitly instructs us to baptize the elderly, but there's no reason to withhold Baptism from the elderly just because there's no explicit instruction to do so.

Christ said "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them". He did not say, "Only baptize these certain sorts of people", He said "baptize".

-CryptoLutheran

But you based your opinion of infants being baptized on "Household salvation" where there is NO mention of INFANTS at all.

Then you use the exact opposite saying that.....
"No Scripture explicitly instructs us to baptize the elderly, but there's no reason to withhold Baptism from the elderly just because there's no explicit instruction to do so."

I suggest that you sit and read what you are about to post before doing so.

You can not have it both ways my friend.

 

[Major1]

What!?

Perhaps I wrote unclearly, or you read unclearly. I'm happy to take the blame though if that's best. Please look again and tell me what sentence seems to suggest that wild conclusion, and I'll try to rectify it!

I don't want to accidentally totally cause confusion with unclear writing.

" It was mostly like any other church (including Catholic) in the sound of the sermon). "

The "sound of the sermon" is not a list of doctrines, but what a sermon is like to listen to: would it fit right into another church in another denomination. In my experience about 95%-99% of the time the answer to that is yes, in the 8 denominations I've attended. The sermons are generally interchangeable, and the preachers could have just switched places and the congregations would have been able to learn from these wide variety of preachers and sermons from other denominations.

In comment #2 you said...…………………...
"It might be best if you wish to challenge a Baptist church to recognize infant baptism, that you go to some length to explain it more instead. (I've never attended a baptist church past 1 visit to 1 or 2 of them, from curiosity. It was mostly like any other church (including Catholic) in the sound of the sermon). Interestingly to me, here this local church (not a denomination I grew up in myself) actually has water in a basin, in which some will dip their finger and touch their forehead, as it were, remembering or repeating or something their baptism.

You said that a Baptist church and a Catholic church TO YOU sounded the same in sermon text.

Then...…..
" and the preachers could have just switched places and the congregations would have been able to learn from these wide variety of preachers and sermons from other denominations."

To me that sounded unclear and confusing.

IMO any Catholic priest could learn something from A Baptist preacher, but not the other way around.

To which I asked if a Baptist church preached on those Catholics teachings which are totally unbiblical?

 

[Halbhh]

In comment #2 you said...…………………...
"It might be best if you wish to challenge a Baptist church to recognize infant baptism, that you go to some length to explain it more instead. (I've never attended a baptist church past 1 visit to 1 or 2 of them, from curiosity. It was mostly like any other church (including Catholic) in the sound of the sermon). Interestingly to me, here this local church (not a denomination I grew up in myself) actually has water in a basin, in which some will dip their finger and touch their forehead, as it were, remembering or repeating or something their baptism.

You said that a Baptist church and a Catholic church TO YOU sounded the same in sermon text.

Then...…..
" and the preachers could have just switched places and the congregations would have been able to learn from these wide variety of preachers and sermons from other denominations."

To me that sounded unclear and confusing.

IMO any Catholic priest could learn something from A Baptist preacher, but not the other way around.

To which I asked if a Baptist church preached on those Catholics teachings which are totally unbiblical?

Ah. I've heard sermons in at least 3 Catholic churches, and I can tell you those sermons sounded like the couple or 3 sermons I heard in Baptist churches.

I'm sure there will be sermons in either denomination that do not sound like those in the other.



But many will.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Bible says in 1 Peter 3:21...................
"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The water here is the water of the flood.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him." - 1 Peter 3:

The rescuing of Noah and his family through the flood points to Baptism. Note that Peter says that Baptism is salvific, "Baptism ... now saves you."

I said.................
"Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ.

You said............
"That's not biblical."

WRONG!

Matthew 28:19-20........
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Notice what Christ says here, "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them", Christ calls His Church to make disciples by baptizing them. It is through Baptism that we become disciples.

Acts 2:37.........
“What shall we do?”

In the next verse (38) did he not command them to “be baptized” ?
Was not their baptism thus an act of obedience to a command?

Yes, and pay attention to what the text actually says, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Baptism is not an act of obedience one does as a sign of faith, it is the means through which God appropriates Christ's redemptive work, that is why it is for the forgiveness of sins, and we receive the Holy Spirit through it.

I said...........
"It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection."

You then said...…………...
"Again, that's not biblical."

WRONG!

Romans 6:4.................
"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

Again, take note of what the passage actually says.

"We were buried therefore with Him by baptism" That is not a statement, that is the reality of what Baptism does. In Baptism we have been buried with Christ, we have died with Christ, we have received new life in Christ. Because Baptism unites us to Jesus Christ.

You then said.............
"I don't suppose you'd be willing to actually show where Scripture says that Baptism is a step of obedience for those who already have faith as a public testimony would you?"

I just did.

No you didn't. You quoted passages which clearly teach what Baptism is and does, but which completely contradict your own view of Baptism.

Scripture says that Baptism is for forgiveness of sins.
Scripture says that Baptism is for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
Scripture says that Baptism unites us to Christ and to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
Scripture says that Baptism clothes us with Jesus.
Scripture says that Baptism saves us.

The passages you references explicitly say those things. Yet you do not believe them, even though that is the plain meaning of the words.

Now if you have a passage of Scripture which supports your position, you are free to present it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

But you based your opinion of infants being baptized on "Household salvation" where there is NO mention of INFANTS at all.

Not really. I base my belief that the Church's mission to baptize includes infants because Christ commanded His Church to baptize, and there's no reason for Christians to deny Jesus to their children.

Then you use the exact opposite saying that.....
"No Scripture explicitly instructs us to baptize the elderly, but there's no reason to withhold Baptism from the elderly just because there's no explicit instruction to do so."

I suggest that you sit and read what you are about to post before doing so.

You can not have it both ways my friend.

You are the one wanting an explicit statement in Scripture that says to baptize infants. So if you need explicit commands in Scripture to baptize different sorts of people based on age, or race, or other arbitrary categories, then it is noteworthy that Scripture doesn't present anything like this.

There is no command in Scripture to baptize the elderly.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize adults.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize children.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize women.
There is no command in Scripture to baptize white people.

Now, for me, this isn't a problem. I don't need the Bible to say which sorts of people can be baptized, because all classes of people are included in Christ's singular and all-inclusive command, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit." All nations means all nations. All people, Jew and Gentile, male and female, young and old, black and white, slave and free, of every tribe, of every tongue, rich, poor, tall, short, fat, thin. It doesn't matter. Jesus Christ is for everybody. Christ died for all. God does not show favoritism, He shows no partiality. The Gospel is the Gospel for everyone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is no explicit instruction to baptize a woman who is pregnant either.

So do you believe that we should forbid pregnant women from receiving Baptism? I don't.

Christ's invitation and welcome is for all. All are welcome here in the holy and precious waters of Baptism. Because here in these waters is Jesus Christ, crucified and risen, with open arms to receive any and all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

So do you believe that we should forbid pregnant women from receiving Baptism? I don't.

Christ's invitation and welcome is for all. All are welcome here in the holy and precious waters of Baptism. Because here in these waters is Jesus Christ, crucified and risen, with open arms to receive any and all.

-CryptoLutheran

Why is it that do you think that some people feel the need to place words into the mouths of others.

Now, did I say that pregnant women should not be baptized?...…..NO I did not.

You had made the "assumption" that FAMILY SALVATION included "Infants". I said that there is NO SCRIPTURE in which infant baptism are included and infants were not included in FAMILY SALVATYION.
For infants to be included, YOU have to ADD that to the what the Bible actually says.

Then to drive that point home for you I stated...………..
"There is no explicit instruction to baptize a woman who is pregnant either."

If a woman accepts the Lord Jesus Christ and wants to follow in believers baptism, while she is pregnant, then it should be done if it can be done safely.

BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER BABIES SALVATION which was the point being made.