Magic(k)

[Ave Maria]

If that were true, you would never have written: "You all do realize that if you practice magic(k) you are opening yourself up to demonic harassment, oppression, infestation, and possession not to mention possible hauntings right?"

Why would we "realize" this if you weren't making such a "dead wrong" assumption about us? I hope you see that this was a reasonable interpretation on my part.

First of all, I only stated the facts. It is a fact that those who practice magic(k) are opening themselves up to all sorts of demonic activity.

Second, I am not the one making dead wrong assumptions. You are.

Why? Because the word is the same?

No, because all forms of spiritual magic (I say spiritual magic in order to exclude the type of magic that magicians do) are spiritually dangerous. It is as simple as that! Can you not get that through your head???

Facts? I love facts. If I saw that it was a fact, I would embrace the fact, not deny it. I see no facts to support your claims, however. I see highly questionable interpretations.

You see no facts because you are apparently blind. You may not be physically blind but you are spiritually blind. That much is obvious by the mere fact that you are an Atheist.

BTW, your threats are empty. They just amount to: "I'm right! You're wrong! You'll see! Oh, yes, you'll see!"

I am not threatening anyone. I am warning you of the possibility of what you may (or may not) face in the next life if you do not change your ways.

Why even bother saying such things? If you really, truly understand that my worldview is different than yours, what is the point other than to make you feel better?

I bother saying such things because I think that you and many others need to be warned about what they might be facing come Judgment Day. I do not say such things to "make myself feel better".

Chick was exactly as earnest and convinced of his "truth" as you are. He did not write fiction, at least in his own mind. He wrote about the "Truth".

There's a big difference between Chick and I though, Mark. Chick is dead wrong on way over half of the stuff that he writes. I am correct on over half of the stuff I right. I belong to the one true Church, the Catholic Church, he belongs to a false church. Therefore, I have been exposed to the Truth more than he has been and am therefore better able to write about the Truth.

I am comparing apples to apples.

Since I am admittedly ignorant of what the phrase "comparing apples to apples" means and it is late, I am going to refrain from commenting on this non-essential part of your post.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Have a good day,
Ave Maria (aka Holly)

 

[hikersong]

First of all, I only stated the facts. It is a fact that those who practice magic(k) are opening themselves up to all sorts of demonic activity.

No it isn't

Second, I am not the one making dead wrong assumptions. You are.

You can't just say something and make it be true.

No, because all forms of spiritual magic (I say spiritual magic in order to exclude the type of magic that magicians do) are spiritually dangerous. It is as simple as that! Can you not get that through your head???

I can't.

You see no facts because you are apparently blind. You may not be physically blind but you are spiritually blind. That much is obvious by the mere fact that you are an Atheist.

No it isn't.

I am not threatening anyone. I am warning you of the possibility of what you may (or may not) face in the next life if you do not change your ways.

"If you don't agree with me you will suffer". Hmmm. Good argument.

I bother saying such things because I think that you and many others need to be warned about what they might be facing come Judgment Day. I do not say such things to "make myself feel better".

Your love shines like a beacon. Only I don't think you're really serious about your warning or else you would try to give better reasons why what you say is true.

There's a big difference between Chick and I though, Mark. Chick is dead wrong on way over half of the stuff that he writes. I am correct on over half of the stuff I right. I belong to the one true Church, the Catholic Church, he belongs to a false church. Therefore, I have been exposed to the Truth more than he has been and am therefore better able to write about the Truth.

"I'm right, your wrong". Another great argument winner.

Since I am admittedly ignorant of what the phrase "comparing apples to apples" means and it is late, I am going to refrain from commenting on this non-essential part of your post.

It means that what you are doing is the same sort of thing Chick is doing. I don't know myself. Haven't read his tracts. But if you are doing the same thing, I really don't want to read his tracks because it means they will unpleasant, simplistic statements made without good reason.

Now, that's what I'd call a successful warning.

 

[Wicked Willow]

First of all, I only stated the facts. It is a fact that those who practice magic(k) are opening themselves up to all sorts of demonic activity.

"Facts", huh?
You know what's so funny about your posts? You actually admit to your ideological blinders (paraphrase: "I belong to the One True Church, and therefore I am right and everything the church says is an established fact"), only to then accuse us of making wrong assumptions about you if we point that out.

How much brainwashing does it take to be so oblivious?

There's a big difference between Chick and I though, Mark. Chick is dead wrong on way over half of the stuff that he writes. I am correct on over half of the stuff I right. I belong to the one true Church, the Catholic Church, he belongs to a false church. Therefore, I have been exposed to the Truth more than he has been and am therefore better able to write about the Truth.

See, that's the sort of thing we mean. Nope, dear, we do not make false assumptions about you. Our interpretation of your posts was spot-on from the very start: you seem to be completely incapable of thinking outside of your own religious world view, and imagining that there are people out there who do not take your "facts" for granted in the same way you are.

Have a good day,
Ave Maria (aka Holly)

Now, wait a sec...

Holly? As in: Holly of "Paladin Girl" fame?

Ooooookay, that explains a lot.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I belong to the one true Church, the Catholic Church, he belongs to a false church. Therefore, I have been exposed to the Truth more than he has been and am therefore better able to write about the Truth.

How fortunate for you. How lucky.

If you had been raised a Mormon, perhaps you would be writing: "I belong to the one true Church, the Church of Latter-Day Saints, he belongs to a false church. Therefore, I have been exposed to the Truth more than he has been and am therefore better able to write about the Truth."

If you had been raised in Jack Chick's church, you might be writing: "I belong to the one true Church, Jack Chick's church. Therefore, Jack Chick has been exposed to the Truth as much as I have."

I see the same intensity and conviction of belief in you as in members of any of those churches. How lucky you are to have stumbled on the one true Church.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ave Maria]

Alright, I am stepping out of this thread. I have said what needs to be said. I have said nothing but the facts and the Truth. If you all can't accept the facts and the Truth as they are then that is your loss and not mine. But yeah we'll see who was right come Judgment day when Jesus puts the sheep on His right and the goats on His left and then sends the goats to the lake of fire of known as Hell and I am standing with the sheep on the right and those of you who deny the Truth are standing on the left with the goats.

But when you become possessed or experience some other sort of demonic activity in your life, don't come crying to me because I have warned you and you did not listen to me.

 

[Zoness]

Magick is very interesting to me, although I am not so big on Crowley personally. Kabbalah and Nordic rune magic is very interesting to me although I am not extremely well read on either subject. Lurking thread

 

[Gwenyfur]

Alright, I am stepping out of this thread. I have said what needs to be said. I have said nothing but the facts and the Truth. If you all can't accept the facts and the Truth as they are then that is your loss and not mine. But yeah we'll see who was right come Judgment day when Jesus puts the sheep on His right and the goats on His left and then sends the goats to the lake of fire of known as Hell and I am standing with the sheep on the right and those of you who deny the Truth are standing on the left with the goats.

But when you become possessed or experience some other sort of demonic activity in your life, don't come crying to me because I have warned you and you did not listen to me.

Holly, while this week at least, you do believe you are part of the one true church, that's great...
We believe differently....that's the bonus and bite of free will...not everyone will choose as you do.

I choose to be Pagan....others will choose different paths...atheist, muslim, protestant etc...

That doesn't give you the right to cast stones...after all only your Christ is without sin, yes?

 

[Wicked Willow]

Alright, I am stepping out of this thread. I have said what needs to be said. I have said nothing but the facts and the Truth. If you all can't accept the facts and the Truth as they are then that is your loss and not mine. But yeah we'll see who was right come Judgment day when Jesus puts the sheep on His right and the goats on His left and then sends the goats to the lake of fire of known as Hell and I am standing with the sheep on the right and those of you who deny the Truth are standing on the left with the goats.

But when you become possessed or experience some other sort of demonic activity in your life, don't come crying to me because I have warned you and you did not listen to me.

Knowing who you are and what the condition you suffer from entails, I've pondered for a long time how to address your posts properly.

If I simply ignore the fact that two weeks from now, you might return to this thread as a Gardnerian Wiccan or a Sunni Muslim speaking with just as much conviction as you do now, I'm doing us both a disservice.

If I instead refuse to take your stance seriously, on the other hand, I'm basically patronizing you, reducing you to your condition - and I don't want to do that, either.

I must say that I'm still not quite sure what to do with you. With the sheer amount of pompousness and gall contained in your posts, it's awfully tempting to just strike at your weak spots, to topple your high horse and draw attention to the sheer ineptness of your position. But I'd feel bad about that, and couldn't quite look myself in the eye if I did.

So I guess I'll just let your posts stand as they are. I'm sure most people can see their sheer hubris, as well as the fact that none of your "facts" is based on anything other than your asserting it.
You've already declared that you want to bow out of this thread, and that's that.

 

[izarya]

From a common standpoint, when something extraordinary happens within the framework of most people's religious beliefs it is a 'miracle' when it occurs in an atmosphere outside of that system it is 'magick'

 

[izarya]

An interesting observation... I am the founding member of an Occult Research / Paranormal Investigation group and to date I have found that only those who are open to the notion of demonic possession actually fall victim to it.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I have found that only those who are open to the notion of demonic possession actually fall victim to it.

Surprise, surprise.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wicked Willow]

Some thoughts on the "white magic/black magic"-dichotomy:

isn't it interesting how the European colour symbolism shows in that one?

In the whole of Asia (and, if memory serves, at least some parts of Africa), white is hardly the colour of goodness, purity, and virtue. Quite the contrary, it is associated with the colour of bones and snow, signifying death. People wear white as the colour of mourning, and ghosts/spirits (not necessarily amiable ones) are also associated with it.

And then, there's the colour black: in ancient Egypt, it signified the rich, fertile soil deposed by the River Nile in the annual floods. Egypts very name, "Kemet", meant something like "the Black land". Black meant *good*, not evil.

Apart from that, the whole dichotomy is more than a little simplistic and arbitrary, like some uses of the "good/evil"-scheme. Even if we were to give some definitions of what would characterize an "evil" use of magic: a tool is a tool; it does not have a moral quality in and of itself. The fact that you could use a kitchen knife to either cut bread or your neighbour's throat doesn't render the knife "black" or "white".

 

[Eudaimonist]

my definition: magic is the word used to name that false sense of spirituality that the lost experience when they are chasing after the desires of the flesh and demonic practices.. its a metaphysical state of mind, that gives them a feeling of separation from the body. but in actuality its only a physical chemical reactions in the body causing this effect.

I can't quite tell who this definition is aimed at. Who uses the word in this way?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wicked Willow]

hey you..

Hey yourself.

so you said you wanted anyones definition of the word magic..

Did I? I don't think I did. I said we needed to establish what we are talking about to avoid misunderstandings, but that's not the same. I'm well aware of the way some Christians define it - and I think I also made it abundantly clear that this is not what I'm talking about in the very post you reference.

ya.. it's spelled with a c, not a k.. so if you're going to be using it to stir things up, at least get the spelling down..

1. "Stir things up"?
2. Spare me the condescension. There's a reason behind the variant spelling (several, actually).

okay here goes.. my definition: magic is the word used to name that false sense of spirituality that the lost experience when they are chasing after the desires of the flesh and demonic practices.. its a metaphysical state of mind, that gives them a feeling of separation from the body. but in actuality its only a physical chemical reactions in the body causing this effect.

"The lost", huh? So, you *are* one of those Christians who believe that all Non-Christians are essentially devil worshippers, either knowingly or unknowingly? Who'd've thought!

 

[sidhe]

hey you.. so you said you wanted anyones definition of the word magic..

Not so much. The practitioners here were more working towards communicating what we mean when we say "magick," not looking for your opinion.

ya.. it's spelled with a c, not a k.. so if you're going to be using it to stir things up, at least get the spelling down..

Comprehension of esoteric reasoning for the "K" - Ur doin' it wrong.

okay here goes.. my definition: magic is the word used to name that false sense of spirituality that the lost experience when they are chasing after the desires of the flesh and demonic practices..

I'll put aside the condescending attitude momentarily, and call your attention to the bolded part.

its a metaphysical state of mind, that gives them a feeling of separation from the body. but in actuality its only a physical chemical reactions in the body causing this effect.

And the bolded part.

Now, let's assume that magick is, in fact, only a psuedomystical experience based off of physical chemical reactions.

That implies that as a proficient magician can consciously alter their state of consciousness, that they have some degree of control over what - in the average person - are purely reactionary emotional states. That implies a higher degree of physical control and discipline than the average individual, particularly as many forms of magick involve assuming conscious control over involuntary movements such as breathing and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

And, if you'd read the thread, you'd have noted that we aren't really opposed to couching the idea in purely psychological and physical terms.

However, I think it's far more likely that you haven't read the thread nor have any intention of comprehending the statements made therein, and have rather made your decision based on misinformation and will proudly stick to an absolute rather than embrace uncertainty.

 

[JJWhite]

Surprise, surprise.


eudaimonia,

Mark

There's actually a popular Egyptian saying that goes like this,

"اللي يخاف من العفريت يطلع له"

"The one who fears the 'Ifreet (powerful genie, demon, bogeyman) will be the one to whom he appears."

The saying is used to emphasize that a person's fears can be his/her worst enemy.

 

[sidhe]

Some thoughts on the "white magic/black magic"-dichotomy:

isn't it interesting how the European colour symbolism shows in that one?

In the whole of Asia (and, if memory serves, at least some parts of Africa), white is hardly the colour of goodness, purity, and virtue. Quite the contrary, it is associated with the colour of bones and snow, signifying death. People wear white as the colour of mourning, and ghosts/spirits (not necessarily amiable ones) are also associated with it.

And then, there's the colour black: in ancient Egypt, it signified the rich, fertile soil deposed by the River Nile in the annual floods. Egypts very name, "Kemet", meant something like "the Black land". Black meant *good*, not evil.

Apart from that, the whole dichotomy is more than a little simplistic and arbitrary, like some uses of the "good/evil"-scheme. Even if we were to give some definitions of what would characterize an "evil" use of magic: a tool is a tool; it does not have a moral quality in and of itself. The fact that you could use a kitchen knife to either cut bread or your neighbour's throat doesn't render the knife "black" or "white".

Victor Anderson (founder of the Feri Tradition) had a quote to the effect of, "White magic is whatever is pure, black magic is whatever works!"

Of course, he also described magick as being multicolored rather than black or white, as well. I find the idea of there being hues and shades of color rather than merely black and white and shades of gray to be comforting. :

 

[Wicked Willow]

Well, I'll stick to my earlier observation and conclude that assigning a "colour scheme" to magick is a rather dubious idea to begin with. (As Zeena Schreck pointed out: in Egypt, the colour associated with "evil" deities was red - but calling yourself a "red magician" these days will at best create the impression that you are a communist occultist. )

 

[Eudaimonist]

There's actually a popular Egyptian saying that goes like this,

"اللي يخاف من العفريت يطلع له"

"The one who fears the 'Ifreet (powerful genie, demon, bogeyman) will be the one to whom he appears."

The saying is used to emphasize that a person's fears can be his/her worst enemy.

Wise indeed.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I'm thinking of taking up Chartreuse (web color) (#7FFF00) magic.


eudaimonia,

Mark