Magic(k)

[Wicked Willow]

Well, thinking about it, most religions do include rituals that are supposed to convey profoundly meaningful insights by means of symbols.
The question is: do most people in the "audience", or even the person performing these ceremonies consciously reflect upon their significance - or is it just "the way things are done"?
A baptism can be perceived as a symbolic outward manifestation of an intense transformational process of initiation - or it can be a guy in a funny dress sprinkling some water on the top of your head while you anticipate the festivities that are to follow.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The question is: do most people in the "audience", or even the person performing these ceremonies consciously reflect upon their significance - or is it just "the way things are done"?

Likewise, was Crowley a magician, or was he a man with a funny hat?

I imagine that people will always get out of something what they put into it.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ave Maria]

You all do realize that if you practice magic(k) you are opening yourself up to demonic harassment, oppression, infestation, and possession not to mention possible hauntings right?

 

[Eudaimonist]

You all do realize that if you practice magic(k) you are opening yourself up to demonic harassment, oppression, infestation, and possession not to mention possible hauntings right?

You do realize that you are so deep into your worldview that you can't imagine that anyone might not share it, right?

I don't practice hermetic magic, myself, but the scare stories you present are just propaganda used by Christians to scare other Christians into not investigating other ideas. They are about as convincing as Chick Tracts.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wicked Willow]

You all do realize that if you practice magic(k) you are opening yourself up to demonic harassment, oppression, infestation, and possession not to mention possible hauntings right?

I tried to address this in the opening post by drawing attention to people's different usage of the term "magic" and the way it relates to specific religions.
In the context of Christianity, the term is pretty much used synonymously with the sort of yellow press occultism that's all about black masses and worshipping the devil. If it's magic, it's a sin by default, and anything that falls under the aegis of Christianity couldn't possibly be a magical practice.

Well, that's not how I see it, looking at it from the outside. Catholic or orthodox ritual, for example, is every inch as "magical" as anything you might find in a hermetic setting. (As the Western esoteric tradition has been heavily influenced by the Qabbalah (including its "Christianized" version) ever since the Renaissance, you'll even find that many "standard" rituals feature invocations of YHVH, etc.pp.)
Even looking at the OT prohibitions and myths, I don't see a conflict of magic vs. no magic, but rather the God of Israel insisting that the only legitimate practices ought to be devoted to him rather than any other deity. Think of Moses and the way he used his staff.

With all that in mind: yes, practicing magick is not without its risks. What psychologists call the "subconscious" is a powerful force indeed, and inept dabblers could cause a tremendous amount of damage to their own mental health - even to the point that might once have been diagnosed as "demonic possession". (And who knows, maybe a proper exorcism can actually cure some such unfortunates just as effectively as psychiatric therapy - provided that they believe in it.)

Still, I might just as well say:

"You all do realize that if you drive a car, you risk the lives of others as well as yourself, shooting down the street in a metal projectile whose sheer velocity is enough to break every bone in your body. Your tyre could pop, hurling you off the shoulder; you could run over a kid or an innocent bystander crossing the street; you could be the victim of a drunk driver veering into your lane; you could perish in a massive crash involving dozens of cars because a truck has toppled over on the highway."

 

[Eudaimonist]

Life is risk.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ave Maria]

You do realize that you are so deep into your worldview that you can't imagine that anyone might not share it, right?

I don't practice hermetic magic, myself, but the scare stories you present are just propaganda used by Christians to scare other Christians into not investigating other ideas. They are about as convincing as Chick Tracts.


eudaimonia,

Mark

You do realize that you are dead wrong, correct? I am not "so deep into my worldview that I can't imagine that anyone might not share it". Do you think I am an idiot or something? Of course I know that many people do not share my worldview.

Oh, and I don't care if you practice hermetic "magic" or any other kind of "magic", the practice of "magic" is spiritually dangerous and can result in demonic activity. You can deny the facts all you want but when you come face to face with God on Judgment Day, you'll realize just how wrong you were on this topic (and possibly on many others as well).

Also, comparing my "scare stories" to Chick Tracts is deeply offensive to me and it isn't even a good comparison. It is a horrible comparison. You are comparing the truth to fiction here. My so called "scare stories" are truth, Chick Tracts are fiction.

 

[JJWhite]

I think when a Muslim hears the word magic, the first thing that would probably pop into their mind would be the satanic type that is considered one of the greatest sins in Islam. You said you didn't want to talk about that type though.

You also said that you weren't talking about magic 'tricks'.

The one popular Arab saying I know that uses the word magic is, "Surely, some eloquent speech is magic." I guess it's using the term metaphorically though, saying that someone who speaks eloquently can bring about the same degree of change that magic could. Reminds me of Obama. Haha. But the saying isn't really about magic, but about the power of speech.

 

[Wicked Willow]

You do realize that you are dead wrong, correct? I am not "so deep into my worldview that I can't imagine that anyone might not share it". Do you think I am an idiot or something? Of course I know that many people do not share my worldview.

Oh, and I don't care if you practice hermetic "magic" or any other kind of "magic", the practice of "magic" is spiritually dangerous and can result in demonic activity. You can deny the facts all you want but when you come face to face with God on Judgment Day, you'll realize just how wrong you were on this topic (and possibly on many others as well).

Strangely enough, your first paragraph is completely at odds with your second one. You did notice that, didn't you?

Also, comparing my "scare stories" to Chick Tracts is deeply offensive to me and it isn't even a good comparison. It is a horrible comparison. You are comparing the truth to fiction here. My so called "scare stories" are truth, Chick Tracts are fiction.

How did you establish the truth of your claims? From where I stand, they are indeed not that different from Chick's notorious "Dark Dungeons". Let's look at the second paragraph once more, shall we?

"I don't care if you practice hermetic "magic" or any other kind of "magic", the practice of "magic" is spiritually dangerous and can result in demonic activity."

In other words: "I'm not interested in anything you say. My religion says it's evil, and therefore it is."
That's Jack T. Chick mentality for you, right there. You don't even bother to acquaint yourself with the topic you are addressing, as your a priori judgment is already firmly in place.

 

[Wicked Willow]

I think when a Muslim hears the word magic, the first thing that would probably pop into their mind would be the satanic type that is considered one of the greatest sins in Islam. You said you didn't want to talk about that type though.

You also said that you weren't talking about magic 'tricks'.

The one popular Arab saying I know that uses the word magic is, "Surely, some eloquent speech is magic." I guess it's using the term metaphorically though, saying that someone who speaks eloquently can bring about the same degree of change that magic could. Reminds me of Obama. Haha. But the saying isn't really about magic, but about the power of speech.

Oh, I'd take that saying at face value: magic has quite a lot to do with the nature of language, and - as Alan Moore pointed out in the video I posted - advertising companies bear witness to that fact as well.

But isn't there also an Arab/Islamic tradition that establishes King Solomon as the greatest magician of all times, who even forced demons into the service of the One True God to erect his temple? I do remember that the 1001 Nights reference Sulaiman's seal, for example.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You do realize that you are dead wrong, correct? I am not "so deep into my worldview that I can't imagine that anyone might not share it". Do you think I am an idiot or something? Of course I know that many people do not share my worldview.

If that were true, you would never have written: "You all do realize that if you practice magic(k) you are opening yourself up to demonic harassment, oppression, infestation, and possession not to mention possible hauntings right?"

Why would we "realize" this if you weren't making such a "dead wrong" assumption about us? I hope you see that this was a reasonable interpretation on my part.

Oh, and I don't care if you practice hermetic "magic" or any other kind of "magic", the practice of "magic" is spiritually dangerous and can result in demonic activity.

Why? Because the word is the same?

You can deny the facts all you want but when you come face to face with God on Judgment Day, you'll realize just how wrong you were on this topic (and possibly on many others as well).

Facts? I love facts. If I saw that it was a fact, I would embrace the fact, not deny it. I see no facts to support your claims, however. I see highly questionable interpretations.

BTW, your threats are empty. They just amount to: "I'm right! You're wrong! You'll see! Oh, yes, you'll see!"

Why even bother saying such things? If you really, truly understand that my worldview is different than yours, what is the point other than to make you feel better?

Also, comparing my "scare stories" to Chick Tracts is deeply offensive to me and it isn't even a good comparison. It is a horrible comparison. You are comparing the truth to fiction here. My so called "scare stories" are truth, Chick Tracts are fiction.

Chick was exactly as earnest and convinced of his "truth" as you are. He did not write fiction, at least in his own mind. He wrote about the "Truth".

I am comparing apples to apples.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wicked Willow]

Interestingly enough, 21st century world views that do incorporate influences from the Western Esoteric tradition often do engage in a kind of demonization that's quite similar to what we can witness in the posts of Ave Maria - except that they only aim this at other groups.

The whole "internal" conflict within the Western esoteric tradition is mostly owed to Helena Petrovna Blavatski, the founder of the Theosophical Society: studying Indian spirituality and philosophy, she came across references to the "vama marga", or "Left-Hand-Path".
Now, whereas the "dakshina marga" or "Right-Hand-Path" was more in line with European sensibilities by encouraging different forms of asceticism and taboo, the "Left-Hand-Path" pursued enlightenment by deliberate immersion into worldly pleasures and the deliberate breaking of taboos.
Being a Victorian lady, such an approach was completely anathema to Madame Blavatsky, of course, and she concluded that this path was pretty much synonymous with "evil" and "Black Magick".

Contrary to what fluff bunny Wiccans and New Agers might think, (and also contrary to the sinister [pun intended] that some self-styled Left-Hand-Path movements cultivate deliberately,) I do not believe that it's as easy or monochrome as that.

Pursuing the Path of Ecstasy does entail certain dangers (such as becoming caught in a purely hedonistic mindset rather than using the resulting psychic impulses to push much further than that), and certainly isn't for everyone, but there is nothing particularly evil about it.
Personally, I think that the 21st century ought to discreetly dispose of Blavatsky's distinction and the tradition that grew up in its wake.

Which reminds me: do you know that there are actually three known versions of the Mage associated with the Crowley tarot? The two discarded versions portray a Right-Hand-Path and a Left-Hand-Path magician, respectively, but Crowley was displeased with both, and eventually chose a version that shows a "transcendental mage" - a figure that transcends the apparent dichotomy.

 

[JJWhite]

Oh, I'd take that saying at face value: magic has quite a lot to do with the nature of language, and - as Alan Moore pointed out in the video I posted - advertising companies bear witness to that fact as well.

But isn't there also an Arab/Islamic tradition that establishes King Solomon as the greatest magician of all times, who even forced demons into the service of the One True God to erect his temple? I do remember that the 1001 Nights reference Sulaiman's seal, for example.

We attest to three separate creations of God, angels, jinn, and humans. We believe angels do not have the ability to make choices. They obey God's commands fully. We believe that jinn, on the other hand, have the ability to make active decisions on what they want to do, as do humans.

We believe that Satan was a jinni, but, when Adam was created, he was in the company of the angels because he was very knowledgeable and chose to obey God. But, when asked to bow to Adam, arrogance kicked in and he refused... and the rest of the story is similar to that in Christian tradition.

Now I just mention that to establish the whole idea of jinn. We believe that there are as many different kinds of jinn as there are humans. Just how we all have different beliefs and ideas, so do they.

The word 'jinn' means invisible or hidden in the Arabic language. We believe that the jinn have the ability to see us, while we do not have the ability to see them.

I guess one could say that they live with us, but it's almost like a separate dimension.

Now, a lot of the jinn are evil, and we would put them under the term 'devils'.They are the followers of 'Satan'. One could say that some humans could be 'devils' too, if they dedicated themselves to Satan's cause.

Now, regarding Solomon, we believe that God gave him the ability to communicate with jinn in general (good or bad), as with animals. So, because he was able to communicate with these different forms of creation, he was king over all of them.

The kind of magic that we view as 'black magic' or evil can only be achieved by compromising the Oneness of God. It is done with the aid of 'bad' jinn, and from what I understand, they usually have some requirements first. My understanding is that it's a two way deal. I don't know all that much about it.

I've heard that jinn are much faster than humans and much stronger than humans. Therefore, with their aid, many things can appear 'supernatural'.

Also, jinns can possess people, and so you have the practice of exorcism, but it is not as prevalent as with some Christians (from what I've seen).

Anyway.. .there's a lot more about that, but, to answer your question, we don't believe any magic was involved with Solomon.

( They followed what the Shayaateen (devils) gave out (falsely of the magic) in the lifetime of Sulayman (Solomon). Sulayman did not disbelieve, but the Shayaateen (devils) disbelieved......) 2:102

and God knows best

P.S. Arab does not equal Islamic

 

[Eudaimonist]

That was interesting, JJWhite. Thanks for explaining that to us.

What about the good jinn? I suppose they exist as well? What do they do with their time?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JJWhite]

That was interesting, JJWhite. Thanks for explaining that to us.

What about the good jinn? I suppose they exist as well? What do they do with their time?


eudaimonia,

Mark

I guess... all sorts of thing. I don't know. I've never talked to one. ha ha. From what I've heard (from people talking, don't know what they base it on) is that jinn, like humans, tend to fear the unknown, and since we are different, most don't like to mess with 'our world'.

Scholars have described several motivators that cause jinn to possess people (such as 'falling in love' with the human, revenge, etc.). I'm not sure what they are basing it on either, but it may be from reports of conversations people have had with jinn. My husband had a roommate in college who, after always hanging out with the rest of them, suddenly started avoiding everyone and staying alone in the room all the time. They were worried he was going through some sort of depression, but they didn't know what to attribute it to. There were other symptoms as well. I don't know the whole story or what lead up to this part (didn't ask my husband, but I could)... anyway, one day during a car ride (this is like 20 years ago in Saudi Arabia) in which they had their friend with them, the troubled friend seemed to fall unconscious, and then spoke with a voice that was very different than his own. He told my husband that he hated him and wish he could hurt him, but that he couldn't get at him because he was shielded by the remembrance of God, but that he was waiting for his chance to get at him. So, it could be that a jinn was speaking to my husband, or it could be that his friend was schizophrenic or had some other psychological illness (and I think there's scientific research about voice changes and even speaking in tongues and all that sort of thing which is reported to happen), or it could be some trick on his friend's part (though that one seems unlikely considering the condition of his friend), so who knows???

That's all story and speculation. There's a chapter of the Qur'aan called 'The Jinn'. It's Chapter 72. I trust in what God has to say. This is Marmaduke Pickthall's translation on meaning.

Al-Jinn
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
​

Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn gave ear, and they said: Lo! we have heard a marvellous Qur'an, (1) Which guideth unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe unto our Lord no partner. (2) And (we believe) that He - exalted be the glory of our Lord! - hath taken neither wife nor son, (3) And that the foolish one among us used to speak concerning Allah an atrocious lie. (4) And lo! we had supposed that humankind and jinn would not speak a lie concerning Allah - (5) And indeed (O Muhammad) individuals of humankind used to invoke the protection of individuals of the jinn, so that they increased them in revolt (against Allah); (6) And indeed they supposed, even as ye suppose, that Allah would not raise anyone (from the dead) - (7) And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors. (8) And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him; (9) And we know not whether harm is boded unto all who are in the earth, or whether their Lord intendeth guidance for them. (10) And among us there are righteous folk and among us there are far from that. We are sects having different rules. (11) And we know that we cannot escape from Allah in the earth, nor can we escape by flight. (12) And when we heard the guidance, we believed therein, and whoso believeth in his Lord, he feareth neither loss nor oppression. (13) And there are among us some who have surrendered (to Allah) and there are among us some who are unjust. And whoso hath surrendered to Allah, such have taken the right path purposefully. (14) And as for those who are unjust, they are firewood for hell. (15) If they (the idolaters) tread the right path, We shall give them to drink of water in abundance (16) That We may test them thereby, and whoso turneth away from the remembrance of his Lord; He will thrust him into ever-growing torment. (17) And the places of worship are only for Allah, so pray not unto anyone along with Allah. (18) And when the slave of Allah stood up in prayer to Him, they crowded on him, almost stifling. (19) Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. (20) Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you. (21) Say: Lo! none can protect me from Allah, nor can I find any refuge beside Him (22) (Mine is) but conveyance (of the Truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever. (23) Till (the day) when they shall behold that which they are promised (they may doubt); but then they will know (for certain) who is weaker in allies and less in multitude. (24) Say (O Muhammad, unto the disbelievers): I know not whether that which ye are promised is nigh, or if my Lord hath set a distant term for it. (25) (He is) the Knower of the Unseen, and He revealeth unto none His secret, (26) Save unto every messenger whom He hath chosen, and then He maketh a guard to go before him and a guard behind him (27) That He may know that they have indeed conveyed the messages of their Lord. He surroundeth all their doings, and He keepeth count of all things. (28) ​

 

[Wicked Willow]

So in conclusion, we might say that in the context of Islam, "magic" is defined as making pacts with evil jinns who then perform tasks that seem to be supernatural, but are in fact just invisible beings using their prodigious strength, yes?

I can see how that might be a bad idea, supposing that there are evil jinns out there, but how exactly does this compromise the Oneness of God?

 

[JJWhite]

So in conclusion, we might say that in the context of Islam, "magic" is defined as making pacts with evil jinns who then perform tasks that seem to be supernatural, but are in fact just invisible beings using their prodigious strength, yes?

I can see how that might be a bad idea, supposing that there are evil jinns out there, but how exactly does this compromise the Oneness of God?

I've heard stories about sorcerers (who repented later) saying things like the jinn used to ask them to bow down to them or commit another form of 'shirk' (giving what's do to Allaah to other than Him) before doing what they asked them to do.

Even believing that certain rituals have the power alone to produce a certain result would be 'shirk' and compromise the Oneness of God, because the full power is being attributed to the means. Perhaps, some people do not even need to communicate with the jinn directly to perform magic. I've never really studied it in detail. What I am taught though is that, one way or another, that kind of magic compromises faith in the Oneness of God.

 

[JJWhite]

(25) (He is) the Knower of the Unseen, and He revealeth unto none His secret, (26) Save unto every messenger whom He hath chosen..

I just thought of something. You see these verses from the above Chapter.

We have the SEEN world that we can sense through our 5 senses. We can use our senses and science to discover what things cause what. We discover that A causes B through observation and Science.

Then there is the UNSEEN world. We can only speculate about this. The verses above tell us that ONLY God knows what it's really like. We cannot assert that A causes B in matters of the Unseen unless God told us that it does through His messengers.

So, if I believe that a fortune teller has the ability to tell my future by looking at my palm, I have compromised my faith in His Oneness. I have made someone else an authority over the matters of the Unseen.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Well, the only form of magic I'm familiar with (through books - I don't practice anything like that) that even remotely resembles what you describe would be directly tied to the tradition of Solomon - and it's pretty much based on bullying the spirits into subservience by calling upon the names of the One God and his prophets, and threatening to call down His vengeance upon them if they fail to comply. Kinda like a traditional exorcism, except that it's not aimed at driving them away, but at making them perform tasks.
Even under the auspices of an archetypal interpretation (which would interpret these spirits as subconscious and potentially negative aspects of one's own mind), it doesn't sound appealing to me in any way whatsoever - yet it doesn't seem to qualify as "shirk".

 

[JJWhite]

Well, the only form of magic I'm familiar with (through books - I don't practice anything like that) that even remotely resembles what you describe would be directly tied to the tradition of Solomon - and it's pretty much based on bullying the spirits into subservience by calling upon the names of the One God and his prophets, and threatening to call down His vengeance upon them if they fail to comply. Kinda like a traditional exorcism, except that it's not aimed at driving them away, but at making them perform tasks.
Even under the auspices of an archetypal interpretation (which would interpret these spirits as subconscious and potentially negative aspects of one's own mind), it doesn't sound appealing to me in any way whatsoever - yet it doesn't seem to qualify as "shirk".

Then perhaps that wouldn't qualify as "magic" in that definition of the term.

Random story..

One of my neighbors attended a seance with some Hispanic ladies. Afterwards, she began having all sorts of nightmares, and then they started happening to her kids. She then talked to a fortune teller in Jordan, who told her that the jinn she was in contact with told her that my friend had messed with some jinn and that there was no way to get them to stop but to kill their entire family (so no other member would seek revenge), which of course, would cost big bucks. My neighbor paid up and the nightmares and kids waking up with scratches all over their faces all ended. Now, who knows if that fortune teller really did contact jinn or made it all up to make a living, but for my neighbor to have gone to her and actually believed her was tantamount to disbelief in God (as specifically mentioned by Muhammad). It just wasn't right in my opinion, but she got herself into the fix by attending a 'seance' for fun. I think maybe that's what the Christian lady who posted earlier was referring to about not messing with demons.

Now this neighbor of mine... either she's one great liar who made the whole thing up, which is possible, or she paid someone money believing that she was hiring a jinn/s to go kill others. She was informed later by that fortune teller, that the home/s of the ones bothering her had been burned down. That's SICK.