Madagascar and Australia, a question for creationists.

[xianghua]

How about you come up with ONE example of a duplicated protein mutation. Lets start with that.

you mean that to find the same gene in a 2 far species and not in some of the species between them?

 

[xianghua]

You mean if there is no arbitrary hard limit, determined a priori. It's a nice rhetorical ploy, but it won't work.

so we cant test evolution then. therefore its not a scientific theory.

 

[Speedwell]

so we cant test evolution then. therefore its not a scientific theory.

LOL!

 

[Armoured]

Isn't "the Bible says so" circular reasoning?

The Bible also says that Jesus was a sheep, and that you can make goats and their subsequent offspring permanently stripey by casting shadows on them. Strangely the "YOU MUST TAKE THE BIBLE COMPLETELY LITERALLY! crowd don't comment on those passages much.

 

[Armoured]

so we cant test evolution then. therefore its not a scientific theory.

You can test it all you like. You can even set up your limits is you like, assuming you can give a sound reason for them.

So found a single example yet?

 

[Armoured]

you mean that to find the same gene in a 2 far species and not in some of the species between them?

That isn't a result of engineering or cross pollination, sure.

 

[xianghua]

That isn't a result of engineering or cross pollination, sure.

so such a finding will falsified evolution? are you sure?

 

[Armoured]

so such a finding will falsified evolution? are you sure?

No. No one said that. But if you can provide a justification for a number that would falsify evolution, and then find that number or more, that would falsify evolution.

With the best will in the world, if you're starting out with an intent to falsify evolution BEFORE you've collected the evidence, you're not being very scientific.

But go ahead. Let's see your best work.

 

[AV1611VET]

Isn't "the Bible says so" circular reasoning?

No, since the Bible is sixty-six books in one.

 

[miamited]

But God didn't directly pen the Bible, people did who claimed they knew what God was saying and perhaps got vosions

HI CD,

Just so long as you understand that is only an understanding. We don't honestly know 'how' exactly God 'led men by the Holy Spirit' to write the words that were written. Many believe, as I do, that it was practically like dictation only a bit more subtle than just saying, "Repeat word for word what I tell you." Each on was able to show their own character within their writing, but the actual words may well have been pretty well guided by this leading of the Holy Spirit. Yes, you are correct that God didn't actually pen the words to parchment, but the idea that then leaves what we read in the Scriptures open to the foibles and frailties of these men in how and what they wrote, is a matter not fully understood by anyone, except those who did actually pen the words.

Paul believed that the Scriptures were written by men as they were led by the Holy Spirit. God can be very, very specific in working with those who love Him and who have been established by Him to be His people and to write down for future generations that which He wants all of us to know about Him and all that He has done, is doing, and will do. So, the idea that because the words were actually penned by men and that then draws the conclusion that they are, therefore, suspect in their integrity, is merely one's understanding of the power and will of God to be worked among those whom He chooses to work with.

Remember, that Jesus knew long before it ever happened that Judas would betray him. He knew that the betrayal would be a reward of silver that would be thrown at the feet of the Pharisees. Pretty darn specific isn't it in what God knew would happen and what He caused to be written centuries before the event, as to its actuality. So, I just caution a christian who sells short the abilities of God in working among His created. The analogy is made that He is a potter and He creates some pots for destruction and some for His glory.

Now, I'm not one to then carry that claim over to every man or woman ever born, but I do believe it tells us that God does have the ability to be very specific in some that He creates to do just exactly what He wants them to do. He created Judas to betray His Son. He raised up Nebuchadnezzar to take Israel captive. He hardened Pharaoh's heart that His great glory and power could be displayed to His people. He called Abram, a man of no account, to begin the working out of His great plan of salvation upon the earth.

That's my understanding.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

HI again CD,

Have you ever researched the hidden word effect that is found in the Scriptures? There're a couple of books out about it. One is called 'The Bible Code' and it shows some fairly amazing evidence that the actual Hebrew words may well have been divinely inspired to be written just as they are. The claim is that the process has been applied to many other books. Some long tomes and some short prose and there is nothing that compares to what is found in the original Hebrew old covenant Scriptures. Yes, there are a few words found here and there in other writings, but nothing even close to the plethora found in the Scriptures. Granted that Hebrew is written differently than most modern languages with very little punctuation and sentence structure, but the results are still quite amazing and even among ancient languages with similar structure, the Scriptures have no equal in this regard.

Just something to cause one to go, 'hmmmm'?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[xianghua]

No. No one said that.

so evolution cant be falsified then?

 

[The Stamp]

Have you ever researched the hidden word effect that is found in the Scriptures? There're a couple of books out about it. One is called 'The Bible Code' and it shows some fairly amazing evidence that the actual Hebrew words may well have been divinely inspired to be written just as they are. The claim is that the process has been applied to many other books. Some long tomes and some short prose and there is nothing that compares to what is found in the original Hebrew old covenant Scriptures. Yes, there are a few words found here and there in other writings, but nothing even close to the plethora found in the Scriptures. Granted that Hebrew is written differently than most modern languages with very little punctuation and sentence structure, but the results are still quite amazing and even among ancient languages with similar structure, the Scriptures have no equal in this regard.

How lucky you were to be introduced to the Bible first and not the Koran?

 

[AV1611VET]

How lucky you were to be introduced to the Bible first and not the Koran?

What were you introduced to first?

 

[miamited]

How lucky you were to be introduced to the Bible first and not the Koran?

Hi stamp,

I suppose that may be true. I don't know. There are certainly now, and have always been, false religions circulating in the world. I do thank God that I wasn't enamored of any of them. Although, to be honest, as a teenager I did dabble in the occult some small bit. Fortunately, it was just a very short while.

No one truly understands God's calling and election. Why some are receptive to the truth and others aren't. I've always believed it to be a matter of God knowing the heart of any man. God can see the tender, seeking heart and God can see the hardened, bitter one.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[The Stamp]

I suppose that may be true. I don't know.

Don't you? how do you think things would be for you had you been born in America into a Muslim family? would you think you had a false religion?

There are certainly now, and have always been, false religions circulating in the world.

They are all false, do you have any evidence that they are not? how many of them do you believe? all of them or just one of them?

I do thank God that I wasn't enamored of any of them. Although, to be honest, as a teenager I did dabble in the occult some small bit. Fortunately, it was just a very short while.

No one truly understands God's calling and election.

How can they?

Why some are receptive to the truth and others aren't. I've always believed it to be a matter of God knowing the heart of any man.

It's more likely that men know their own minds.

God can see the tender, seeking heart and God can see the hardened, bitter one.

Do you think that everyone who does not believe in your God is bitter? I'm not and neither is anyone I know.
I do in fact feel quite lucky that I was not born into a religious family.

 

[Astrophile]

No, you need a limit because you are anxious to falsify evolution--to usher in what?

To usher in Ussher? But the house of Usher/Ussher fell more than a hundred years ago.

 

[USincognito]

Come up with something better then. What is science?

Huh? My point is that your rhetoric does not constitute evidence. Evolution is science whether you like it or not. You stamping your feet and shouting "No!" won't make the evidence supporting it go away.

 

[USincognito]

It would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis. But I am not interested in continuing this discussion unless you tell me what you point is.

It's a rhetorical tactic to try and back people into a corner and draw a line. XH will then look for an example beyond that line and claim it falsifies your position. It's a very transparent tactic for those who can't actually address the evidence.

 

[USincognito]

the point is that ev en if we will find such a convergent case in the genetic level- evolution will not falsified. so its not a scientific claim.

Engaging in flights of fancy is not the same as addressing the actual evidence. That actual evidence shows that no such violations of the nested hierarchy exist. There are some examples of incomplete lineage sorting, but that is understood and we never see examples of genetic homology in distantly related beings.