Madagascar and Australia, a question for creationists.

[lesliedellow]

Hi leslie,

I understand. However, what I know is that if God wants to split the U.S. into two pieces and separate them by 1,000 miles of water, He can do it before you take your next breath. You or I don't honestly have a clue the forces against the land when the springs of the deep were opened. Where the Atlantic Ocean sits right now could well be where one of the large springs of the deep opened up and split the continents hundreds of miles apart. The Mariana trench could actually be where all that water came out of the earth. I'm just throwing these out as possibilities. I don't know, but I also know that neither do you.

You claim that the north american and european continents are moving apart at 2cm/yr. That's fine and for today that may well be true. What proof do you have that for every year of the last 6,000 years that 2cm drift has been the only phenomenon that has separated the two continents? How do you know that at some point in history past the continents didn't suddenly separate by hundreds of miles in a near instant and then settled to this 2cm drift after the main event? You honestly don't have a clue what happened to the earth 4,500 years ago when the flood waters were over the whole earth. You're merely listening to science today tell you that this 2cm drift is occurring today. I don't have any problem with that being the truth of what's happening today. I'm just not convinced that there is any assurance that in the last 6,000 years of earth's history that such drift has always been some constant of the effect.

Do you have someone's testimony of what happened 4500 years ago upon the earth?

God bless you.
In Christ, ted

You can make up ad hoc hypotheses until the cows come home, but I defy you to find either scientific or biblical support for your just so story.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I'm not sure that's correct to be honest.

YEC proponents believe in something that flies in the face of all scientific research and evidence, Atheist just do not believe in god. I'm struggling to get the connection.

Dave I sadly - because all Christians need to be in concert - have to inform you that is not correct. I could give you information and argument on the subject, but since you seem to be a YEC supporter, you would simply ignore it.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

However, what I know is that if God wants to split the U.S. into two pieces and separate them by 1,000 miles of water, He can do it before you take your next breath.

The "God can" argument. The first step is to announce "God can" in the idea no Christian will object to that statement. Then the presenter claims - not in so many words, but supposedly craftily - "God can" equates to "God did!"

The problem with this argument lies in the primary clause. God can NOT do anything.

God cannot deny or violate His own nature. God cannot, for instance tell a lie. When a YEC proponent claims God did something one way and then establishes natural, physical laws which indicate the 'one way' claimed cannot have happened, the YEC proponent is essentially claiming God 'planted' or 'created' false evidence. In other words, God lied.

I discount this. No matter who said it first, no matter how revered such a person might be, God does NOT lie. To claim such is blasphemy.

 

[miamited]

Nope, all we can do is create models based on what we currently observe.

We'll leave the wouldashouldacoulda to you guys.

Hi HS,

Exactly! All we can do is take what we observe today and 'assume' that is how it's always been. We have no way of knowing whether or not those assumptions are correct. Science has what it calls 'laws' and bases there understanding of many things on those laws. However, for those who believe that God is the author of the Scriptures, He has shown repeatedly that when He does something, all those laws go out the window.

In the account of the plagues on Egypt, for three days He made it to be so dark in Egypt that people couldn't see to leave their homes. Yet, just a few miles down the road in Goshen, the sun was shining just like on any other day. That's impossible! During the exodus from Egypt, He claims to have made a wall of water stand at attention on both their right hand and on their left. That's impossible! At one point He made a shadow cast by the sun to go backwards up ten steps. That's impossible! He caused a young Jewish woman to be pregnant without ever having had relations with a man. That's impossible!

So, when someone tells me that the continents are only moving apart by 2cm/year and so their current placement would be impossible if the earth were only 6,000 years old, I say, yes, that's correct. If the only reason that the continents are where they are is because of what we observe today...that's impossible! But, if we allow that perhaps it's because of something that God did, well, now all those impossible things become easily possible.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

The "God can" argument. The first step is to announce "God can" in the idea no Christian will object to that statement. Then the presenter claims - not in so many words, but supposedly craftily - "God can" equates to "God did!"

The problem with this argument lies in the primary clause. God can NOT do anything.

God cannot deny or violate His own nature. God cannot, for instance tell a lie. When a YEC proponent claims God did something one way and then establishes natural, physical laws which indicate the 'one way' claimed cannot have happened, the YEC proponent is essentially claiming God 'planted' or 'created' false evidence. In other words, God lied.

I discount this. No matter who said it first, no matter how revered such a person might be, God does NOT lie. To claim such is blasphemy.

Hi archie,

So, for you, the shadow of the sun did not go back 10 steps, correct? For you, the water of the sea did not stand as a wall on the right and on the left of the Israelites, correct? After all, all of these things go against the natural properties that we know of the courses of the stars and the attributes of water.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

The short answer to that question is yes, unless you are talking about some miraculous Last Thursdayism. Is that where you're heading with this?

Hi speedwell,

I can't answer your question because I don't know what 'last thrusdayism' is. If you'd be a little more clear or define what that phrase means, I'll give it a go.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Speedwell]

So, when someone tells me that the continents are only moving apart by 2cm/year and so their current placement would be impossible if the earth were only 6,000 years old, I say, yes, that's correct. If the only reason that the continents are where they are is because of what we observe today...that's impossible! But, if we allow that perhaps it's because of something that God did, well, now all those impossible things become easily possible.

Yet geologists can tell the difference as to whether a geological event happened rapidly or slowly by the kind of evidence left behind. To be sure, God could have miraculously moved the continents rapidly in such a way as to leave behind the kind of evidence that would indicate that they had moved slowly. Would you find that theologically acceptable?

 

[Speedwell]

Hi speedwell,

I can't answer your question because I don't know what 'last thrusdayism' is. If you'd be a little more clear or define what that phrase means, I'll give it a go.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

"Last Thursdayism" is the (satirical) doctrine that the world was created last Thursday, with all the scientific and documentary evidence--along with human memories--that it was really much older being fabricated as part of that creation.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Hi archie,

So, for you, the shadow of the sun did not go back 10 steps, correct?

Actually, I am sure the shadow did go back the ten steps. (No, I do not have a solid answer for 'how'.) I am also sure the Sun does NOT revolve around the Earth, as the YEC faction demanded as recently as the 19th Century. The only reason the YEC faction changed this stance was due to having their collective nose rubbed in it repeatedly.

But if you are going to cling rigidly and without thought, because someone told you God would disown you if you didn't believe in YEC, you go right ahead. And just ignore that thing about God lying.

 

[miamited]

Yet geologists can tell the difference as to whether a geological event happened rapidly or slowly by the kind of evidence left behind. To be sure, God could have miraculously moved the continents rapidly in such a way as to leave behind the kind of evidence that would indicate that they had moved slowly. Would you find that theologically acceptable?

Hi speedweel,

Well, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree that geologists can read the evidence of the things that God has done.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Speedwell]

Hi speedweel,

Well, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree that geologists can read the evidence of the things that God has done.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

What you are denying, then, is that geologists can read evidence of past events; that they can determine whether a geological event happened rapidly or slowly. What is your expertise in geology that allows you to make that determination? It must be impressive.

 

[miamited]

"Last Thursdayism" is the (satirical) doctrine that the world was created last Thursday, with all the scientific and documentary evidence--along with human memories--that it was really much older being fabricated as part of that creation.

Hi speedwell,

Fabricated is not the word. The creation merely is what it is. What is fabricated is of man. Man reads the evidence that we find in the here and now and then fabricates a belief that, 'thus it has always been'. Without any substantiating evidence that gives any kind of assurance that 'thus it has always been'. He just merely assumes that 'thus it has always been'. As far as human memories, again we really don't have any sure evidence that these various civilizations in which we find these 'memories' are of any certain age. We think we can date them through the use of the assumptive scientific method, but there's really no confirming evidence that our dating is correct.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

What you are denying, then, is that geologists can read evidence of past events; that they can determine whether a geological event happened rapidly or slowly. What is your expertise in geology that allows you to make that determination? It must be impressive.

Hi speedwell,

None. And please don't feel like you have to believe as I do. But, I hope you will appreciate that there are enough holes in the various theories of man that I'm not going to believe as you do either. Man can come up with all sorts of theories based on the natural properties of things, but he has no way of actually proving that any such theories of things that happened in ages past is or isn't correct. He can only assume that because his methodology is pure and does fit correctly in the here and now, that his findings must be correct as to what happened in the ages past. I don't have that much faith in the wisdom of man.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Speedwell]

Hi speedwell,

Fabricated is not the word. The creation merely is what it is. What is fabricated is of man. Man reads the evidence that we find in the here and now and then fabricates a belief that, 'thus it has always been'. Without any substantiating evidence that gives any kind of assurance that 'thus it has always been'. He just merely assumes that 'thus it has always been'. As far as human memories, again we really don't have any sure evidence that these various civilizations in which we find these 'memories' are of any certain age. We think we can date them through the use of the assumptive scientific method, but there's really no confirming evidence that our dating is correct.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

I'm not sure what you mean by referring to civilizations; we were talking about geology. For example, if you subject unlithified sedimentary strata to great pressure they will bend without cracking. If you subject lithified sedimentary strata to great pressure they will bend but they will crack. If you subject lithified sedimentary strata to heat and great pressure they will bend slowly without cracking but will contain tiny slip fractures. All of this can be demonstrated in a laboratory and it allows geologists to understand the history of sedimentary formations--except you denounce it as a lie in order to preserve a shallow and theologically unsatisfactory interpretation of ancient religious stories.

 

[miamited]

Actually, I am sure the shadow did go back the ten steps. (No, I do not have a solid answer for 'how'.) I am also sure the Sun does NOT revolve around the Earth, as the YEC faction demanded as recently as the 19th Century. The only reason the YEC faction changed this stance was due to having their collective nose rubbed in it repeatedly.

But if you are going to cling rigidly and without thought, because someone told you God would disown you if you didn't believe in YEC, you go right ahead. And just ignore that thing about God lying.

Hi archie,

Well, let's talk about that thing of God lying. You believe that God is bound by the natural properties that He created so that all things endure. You believe that if God were to do something that doesn't fit with the natural properties that He created for all things so that the earth and the universe endure, that it would make God to be a liar. I don't get the connection.

God created man and woman so that the only way that children could be born was for the man to lie with the woman. That's the only way that a human birth can come to be. It's a natural law. There is no other way for a woman to become pregnant. Now, yes, today we can do the fertilization process outside of the womb, but it still takes male sperm to fertilize the female egg. There is, as yet, no synthetic that can take the place of these two necessary ingredients for a woman to become pregnant.

Yet, Mary did. Does that make God a liar? Your claim is that for God to do something that goes against the natural properties that He has established makes Him to be a liar. I believe that God has the authority to do whatever He chooses to do with that which He has created.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

I'm not sure what you mean by referring to civilizations; we were talking about geology. For example, if you subject unlithified sedimentary strata to great pressure they will bend without cracking. If you subject lithified sedimentary strata to great pressure they will bend but they will crack. If you subject lithified sedimentary strata to heat and great pressure they will bend slowly without cracking but will contain tiny slip fractures. All of this can be demonstrated in a laboratory and it allows geologists to understand the history of sedimentary formations--except you denounce it as a lie in order to preserve a shallow and theologically unsatisfactory interpretation of ancient religious stories.

Hi speedwell,

You mentioned something about human memories.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Speedwell]

Hi speedwell,

You mentioned something about human memories.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

O

Hi speedwell,

You mentioned something about human memories.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Only with respect to defining Last Thursdayism. If the world was created last Thursday, how come I can remember things that happened as far back as the 1940s?

 

[Speedwell]

Hi archie,

Well, let's talk about that thing of God lying. You believe that God is bound by the natural properties that He created so that all things endure. You believe that if God were to do something that doesn't fit with the natural properties that He created for all things so that the earth and the universe endure, that it would make God to be a liar. I don't get the connection.

God created man and woman so that the only way that children could be born was for the man to lie with the woman. That's the only way that a human birth can come to be. It's a natural law. There is no other way for a woman to become pregnant. Now, yes, today we can do the fertilization process outside of the womb, but it still takes male sperm to fertilize the female egg. There is, as yet, no synthetic that can take the place of these two necessary ingredients for a woman to become pregnant.

Yet, Mary did. Does that make God a liar? Your claim is that for God to do something that goes against the natural properties that He has established makes Him to be a liar. I believe that God has the authority to do whatever He chooses to do with that which He has created.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

He would only be a liar if he intentionally planted physical evidence that Mary's pregnancy had been the result of a normal mating between a human woman and a human man. Did He do that?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Last time, Ted. I really get exercised when ignored repeated.

Well, let's talk about that thing of God lying. You believe that God is bound by the natural properties that He created so that all things endure. You believe that if God were to do something that doesn't fit with the natural properties that He created for all things so that the earth and the universe endure, that it would make God to be a liar. I don't get the connection.

By the numbers, then.

1. The claim is all the Universe, Earth, stars, comets, asteroids, formations and structures were made by individual acts of God in 'days'. (Not seconds, not minutes, not instantaneously, not eons, but twenty-four hour days.)

2. God created all the 'laws' of the Universe at the same time - as they are not mentioned separately, either before or after.

3. All the 'laws' of the Universe operate on a regular and consistent basis. Water flows downhill reliably. The recipe for brownies always results in brownies; some better than others, but assembling the recipe for brownies never results in a cherry pie, a water pump or a Cape Buffalo. Light travels (in a given medium) at a constant speed.

3a. Miracles are observed as deviations of these laws. Turning water into wine is done annually, Jesus 'sped up' the process by His authority. But it was an obvious miracle. Jesus brought Lazarus (and a couple others) back from the dead. Note carefully no one came back from the dead without direct and Divine intervention. (If this confuses you, read Miracles, by C. S. Lewis for greater explanation.) Also note carefully God never performed any sort of miracle without demonstrating such was a miracle.

4. The YEC theory of six day creation conflicts with the laws of physics. That could be attributed to 'miracle'.

5. The laws of physics are reliable and constant. Despite the studied pretense of 'not there', much evidence shows to mankind of the extreme age of the Earth and Universe. (All this without reference to any creature, living or dead.)

6. Therefore, if God acted as the YEC faction insists, and then left evidence of great age, God placed false evidence in existence.

7. False evidence is a very real form of deception; lying.

One notes this used to be claimed; that God placed false evidence to deceive the unbelieving and reward the faithful. This claim has been abandoned by many as the claim demands God be a liar.

But you suit yourself.

 

[AV1611VET]

The short answer to that question is yes, unless you are talking about some miraculous Last Thursdayism. Is that where you're heading with this?

That is not Last Thursdayism.

Last Thursdayism says it all happened last Thursday; thus he wouldn't be asking questions about 4500 years ago.