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Macro: Where is the Evidence ?

Edx

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Ed Vidence said:
The OP quotes of Milton and Darwin refute you.
.

And what part of the quotes is that? Lots of microevolution is what equals macroevolution. If macroevolution is anything other than what we have told you it is, it has no real meaning at all.

Darwin admitted the fossil record contained no evidence of transitional forms.
No, he questioned his theory and suggested what one might say to point out flaws like any good scientist should do. It was new THEN. He didnt know everything when he wrote his book, THEN. Its not like the Bible where one must hang on his every word.

What evidence was his theory based on then ?
Go read his books you love to quote from, sorry, steal off Creationists websites.

Darwin did not have a science degree so this will be an acceptable out.
You arent a scientist based on your degree, you are a scientist based on what you do.

Ed
 
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Edx

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GodsSamus said:
Buah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha (Gasps for breath)!!!Is the best defense of your religion insults? If it is, why are you keeping it posed as science?

Well let me explain it to you then. Evolution does say that life reproduces after its own kind. Everything that has ever evolved is just a modified version of what its ancestors were. As long as "kind" is defined properly, as in what we actually observe, this is exactly what we see.

Ed
 
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Peris

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GodsSamus said:
Buah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha (Gasps for breath)!!!Is the best defense of your religion insults? If it is, why are you keeping it posed as science?

a few threads ago you called evolution a religion and about 10 people responded it was not a religion and why. You did not respond to those answers and now you are back again saying evolution is a religion. Why are you doing this?
 
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mikeynov

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Peris said:
a few threads ago you called evolution a religion and about 10 people responded it was not a religion and why. You did not respond to those answers and now you are back again saying evolution is a religion. Why are you doing this?

I think you meant to direct this at Godsamus :p
 
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FSTDT

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Ed Vidence said:
Charles Darwin:

"But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory." [Origin of Species, chapter 10]

Richard Milton:

"Macroevolution, a process that occurs over millions of years so it cannot be observed or made the subject of experiment.

Microevolution, on the other hand, is very much simpler. It is the
change in frequency of variant genes (called alleles) from generation
to generation, and something that can be observed. Darwin's finches are
an example of microevolution. By defining microevolution in such simple
terms, Darwinists are sure of silencing any critics, for no one can
disagree that variant genes do not change in frequency from generation
to generation, just as no one can disagree that a bird with a thick
beak is genetically different from a bird with a thin beak.

It is the next part of the argument (where the goalposts are moved)
that is the really clever part.

When you get enough microevolution, say Darwinists, you eventually get
macroevolution. This proposition cannot be tested empirically for
exactly the same reasons that the concept of macroevolution itself
cannot be tested experimentally. Once you have agreed with the first
part of this proposition, however, it appears difficult not to agree
with this final part.

This proposition is contradicted by every objection raised against
neo-Darwinism in the past fifty years: that what Mayr called genetic
homeostasis will prevent morphological change beyond a certain point;
that there is no evidence for gradual change leading to macroevolution
in the fossil record."
Your quotes are cribbed out of context. The parts in blue are portions you quoted, the parts in black are the rest of the quote:
But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record.

In the first place, it should always be borne in mind what sort of intermediate forms must, on the theory, have formerly existed. I have found it difficult, when looking at any two species, to avoid picturing to myself forms DIRECTLY intermediate between them. But this is a wholly false view; we should always look for forms intermediate between each species and a common but unknown progenitor; and the progenitor will generally have differed in some respects from all its modified descendants. To give a simple illustration: the fantail and pouter pigeons are both descended from the rock-pigeon; if we possessed all the intermediate varieties which have ever existed, we should have an extremely close series between both and the rock-pigeon; but we should have no varieties directly intermediate between the fantail and pouter; none, for instance, combining a tail somewhat expanded with a crop somewhat enlarged, the characteristic features of these two breeds. These two breeds, moreover, have become so much modified, that, if we had no historical or indirect evidence regarding their origin, it would not have been possible to have determined from a mere comparison of their structure with that of the rock-pigeon, C. livia, whether they had descended from this species or from some other allied species, such as C. oenas.

So with natural species, if we look to forms very distinct, for instance to the horse and tapir, we have no reason to suppose that links directly intermediate between them ever existed, but between each and an unknown common parent. The common parent will have had in its whole organisation much general resemblance to the tapir and to the horse; but in some points of structure may have differed considerably from both, even perhaps more than they differ from each other. Hence, in all such cases, we should be unable to recognise the parent-form of any two or more species, even if we closely compared the structure of the parent with that of its modified descendants, unless at the same time we had a nearly perfect chain of the intermediate links.
So, Darwin presents an objection to his theory, and answers it. This is a very typical way to present any theory. So, each and every time you said "Darwin's theory refutes you", you were wrong, because the quote was cited out of context.

And, to the second quote, its just sillyness offering little or nothing to say. He offers no explanation of why Darwin's finches arent examples of "microevolution", and no explanation for why "lots of microevolution = macroevolution" is faulty. He says also that there is no evidence of gradual change in the fossil records, but this is just wrong. The striking thing about this claim is that he concedes that macroevolution should be revealed in the fossil record in small successive changes, but this statement clearly contradicts his previous comment that "microevolution+time=macroevolution" is empirically unverifyable - this is a very serious methodological flaw with his comment, and such a simple error makes me question whether he should be an authority to speak on evolution at all.
 
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Edx

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FSTDT said:
:

So, Darwin presents an objection to his theory, and answers it. This is a very typical way to present any theory. .

I did this in school. Its so basic. Can these people really not have been taught this?

this is a very serious methodological flaw with his comment, and such a simple error makes me question whether he should be an authority to speak on evolution at all.
Darwin doesnt speak anymore.:)

Ed
 
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corvus_corax

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Ed Vidence said:
Wrong.
The OP evidence/quotes refute you.
The Milton quote refutes you.
Hello?
Pardon me?
Hello?
~Tapping microphone~
~squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee~
IS THIS THING ON?!?

Oops sorry, got a bit loud for a sec

Regarding your assertions...

Posts 47 and 88 (among others)
Both of the quotes you supplied have already been directly addressed
(and dont bring up that you dont read links...these are posts from this very thread)

Now be honest and upright and concede that you are only repeating garbage that has been refuted time and time again.
 
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GodsSamus

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mikeynov said:
Why are you talking about science when you don't know what the V in HIV stands for?

Good gravy - go to school, leave this board alone. You're embarassing yourself.

Actually, V means virus. Bacteria and viruses are confusing to me because both share a lot of similarities.
 
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mikeynov

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GodsSamus said:
Actually, V means virus. Bacteria and viruses are confusing to me because both share a lot of similarities.

Fair enough, but this is where the virtue of humility comes in. If you find the difference between bacteria and virii to be confusing, maybe you shouldn't be lecturing people about biological subjects?

Just a thought.
 
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Nymphalidae

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GodsSamus said:
Actually, V means virus. Bacteria and viruses are confusing to me because both share a lot of similarities.

Actually, viruses and bacteria are nothing alike. I can see how it might be confusing, considering how this information is concealed within books.
 
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rjw

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Ed Vidence said:
Only apostates and atheists claim to have falsified sudden creation - what else could they claim ?

Both worldviews (militantly against theism) predetermine their conclusions - obviously.

Romans says they knew "for God has shown it to them" (1:19) but they chose to deny the obviousness of intelligent design (1:20) and as a penalty for denying God Creator status He enacted a blinding penalty so "their foolish hearts were darkened". (1:21) The 23rd verse declares what a darkened person must believe - the icons of evolution then are listed. "Image" in verse 23 is the Greek word for "icon". Because Romans was written in 58 AD and its facts are perfectly matched with objects in reality (Darwinists) this is proof of the record being the eternal word of God as God predicted the scientific attempt to erase His Creatorship.

Ed Vidence


Hello Ed Vdence,


Ed Vdence said:
Only apostates and atheists claim to have falsified sudden creation - what else could they claim ?

Both worldviews (militantly against theism) predetermine their conclusions - obviously.


By what logic is apostasy necessarily militantly against theism?

By what logic is atheism necessarily militantly against theism?


From the style of this post, have you posted on other BBs under the name “WILLOWTREE” or “Adam Zenith”?


Regards, Roland
 
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danaman5

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Isn't this a violation of forum rules? This guy is clearly not an atheist. Take a look at post #72. Nobody insults their own worldview by using a holy book they supposedly don't believe in and referring to themselves in the third person. I mean, go ahead, be a YEC, but don't lie about your worldview.
 
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J

Jet Black

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GodsSamus said:
Actually, V means virus. Bacteria and viruses are confusing to me because both share a lot of similarities.

not really.

  • Bacteria have a membrane and a cell wall viruses only have a protein coat, though some surround this with a lipid envelope.
  • Bacteria have their own synthesization machinery, viruses don't.
  • Bacteria respire, excrete and react maintain a level of homeostatis, viruses don't
  • Bacteria have their own replication machinery, viruses don't
  • All viruses are pathogenic, only some bacteria are.
  • Some Viruses use RNA instead of DNA as their genetic storage protein, no bacteria do.
  • Bacteria fulfil all the requirements for the basic definition of alive, Viruses don't.
  • Viruses rely on invading cells in order to replicate, Bacteria don't.
  • Bacterial infections can be treated with antibiotics, viral infections can't.
-----------------------

bacteria and viruses are totally different in almost every way. I am suprised that you talk so much about evolution and don't even know the difference between two of the largest groups of replicating organisms on the planet, the structures of which underly our knowledge about the way life works.
 
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Loudmouth

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Ed Vidence said:
Negative.

Darwin did not admit the fact that the geological fossil formations completely lacked proof of his theory, then go on and contradict himself as you are saying above.

And yet he listed fossil formations that demonstrated transitional species, otherwise known as a record of macroevolution.

The problem is that your quote is out of context. Here is the full version.

"Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record. In the first place, it should always be borne in mind what sort of intermediate forms must, on the theory, have formerly existed... ".

Did Darwin actually think that the lack of intermediates was a silver bullet for his theory? Not at all. How about you start dealing with the full quote instead of the twisted, out of context quote that only a darkened hearted person would post.

Whatever it is that you are talking about was hoped for evidence.

And supported by evidence. Horses again, a beautiful example of macroevolution made obvious in the fossil record.

strat.jpeg




Nothing can erase the Darwin quote and its fact even though you are desparately trying to do so.

No need to erase it. Putting it in context ruins your argument.

You can spin it this way but the fact remains that there were no intermediates displayed in the record.

Define "transitional" and then try and argue that the fossil horse species above do not fit that definition.

How did an inantimate object (the fossil record) just so happen to not select the very thing the theory said had to be ?

It has supplied it, and only removal of God Sense is preventing you from seeing it.

At this point, Darwin and you are arguing as fact something that did not exist via insisting the fossil record somehow chose not to show exactly what the theory says it must show. This is intelligence insulting falsification evasion at its plain worst.

Only a misunderstanding of Darwin would lead you to believe this. What Darwin was saying is that "Why don't we see millions upon millions of intermediate forms instead of the thousands we do see." He answered this question by stating that the fossil record could very well be incomplete. You have yet to show that the fossil record should be complete, especially since we have only looked at a scant percentage of fossil bearing strata.

Invoking the lack of evidence a sweetheart exemption. Sorry, no evidence means the theory is untrue.

No lack of evidence. See horsies above.

The lack of the necessary fossilization as admitted by you cannot be held as evidence for the theory. The lack of evidence for whatever reason disproves the theory not the other way around.

I never said there was a lack of necessary fossilization, just a lack of complete fossilization of every species that ever lived. There were billions of passenger pigeons in the US before their extinction but we have yet to find one fossil specimen of this species. Fossilization will not preserve every species, plain and simple.

Gould also recognized what Darwin and Milton recognized, yet the lack of the very thing that the theory says is true has no geological fossil evidence.

Milton is a hack and Gould has been quoted out of context to such a point that it is almost libelous.

The formations show species appearing, then slightly changing over time, then disappearance. How could it show all that but somehow decide/select not to show exactly what you assert is fact ?

Species appearing is exactly what you claim doesn't happen.

The lack of any evidence for macro proves and corroborates Genesis as true still.

Lack of evidence is also proof that leprechauns created the world. Try again.

The Milton and Darwin quotes in context have repelled falsification. Macro is assumed based on micro.

The Darwin quote is repelled by putting it in context.

The Milton quote is repelled by the fossil evidence, of which the record of the macroevolution of horses is just one. Quotes do not trump evidence.
 
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