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Macro: Where is the Evidence ?

E

Ed Vidence

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GoSeminoles! said:
This has already been done but you won't touch it because

YOU
ARE
A
LIAR.

Jesus weeps when you lie for him.

Purely, subjective and predictible.

But I have an objective basis and source to identify you as the liar:

Romans 1:25

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


The context is the wrath of God of the 18th verse who deny the obviousness of intelligent design declared in the 20th verse.

It is Darwinists who change the truth of God (Creator) into the LIE of creature being origin (macroevolution) instead of God.

REMEMBER: YOU INITIATED THE "LIAR" CHARGE.

Ed Vidence
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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I don’t know how people like you do it Ed. I mean really. I can’t even begin to imagine how I could take an unsubstantiated belief and defend it by railing against anything that doesn’t fit with my baseless assertions while demanding evidence with one breath and denying to even look at the very evidence I demand with the next. This is truly amazing.

 
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G

GoSeminoles!

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Ed Vidence said:
Purely, subjective and predictible.

But I have an objective basis and source to identify you as the liar:

Romans 1:25

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


The context is the wrath of God of the 18th verse who deny the obviousness of intelligent design declared in the 20th verse.

It is Darwinists who change the truth of God (Creator) into the LIE of creature being origin (macroevolution) instead of God.

REMEMBER: YOU INITIATED THE "LIAR" CHARGE.

Ed Vidence

You are the liar. You falsely posed as someone asking a question in good faith. You have lied a second time by selecting an atheist icon even though you have just proven you are not.

If you feel your religion condones lying for Jesus, fine. It's a fine example you have set. Maybe you could find some Islamic radicals to hang out with. You'd have a lot in common with them -- do or say anything for The Cause.

Take a hike, liar.
 
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FlameProofHeretic

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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:
I don’t know how people like you do it Ed. I mean really. I can’t even begin to imagine how I could take an unsubstantiated belief and defend it by railing against anything that doesn’t fit with my baseless assertions while demanding evidence with one breath and denying to even look at the very evidence I demand with the next. This is truly amazing.


its actually frightenly easy and all too comon.
its called DENIAL!
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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GoSeminoles! said:
You are the liar. You falsely posed as someone asking a question in good faith. You have lied a second time by selecting an atheist icon even though you have just proven you are not.
Good substantiated points. Excuse me Ed, but it appears your pants are indeed on fire.


 
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corvus_corax

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Ed Vidence said:
You are evading the specifics of the OP.

1) Darwin admitted the geological record showed no evidence of his theory.

2) Milton (atheist) confirms this is still a fact today.
Read this carefully, as I address the specifics of your OP-

1- Although Darwin wrote some foundations for what would become modern day evolutionary theory....we have learned a lot more since then.
The fossil record that we have exposed is much larger than the fossil record that Darwin was aware of.
It's as simple as that.
Examples have been given to you (via links and pictures). If you refuse to look at them, so be it. But dont wallow in your ignorance and blame the members of this forum for it.

2- Milton (atheist) is WRONG.
It's as simple as that.
As I said above-
Examples have been given to you (via links and pictures). If you refuse to look at them, so be it. But dont wallow in your ignorance and blame the members of this forum for it.

There.
Simple, to the point, and completely addressed.

If you are TRULY interested in educating yourself regarding evolutionary theory, a debate forum is NOT the place to do it. Evolutionary theory cannot be fully explained in individual posts.
You'll have to check out the links in question, which more fully explain the various details of evolutionary theory. If you refuse to do so, dont blame the members of this forum for your complete lack of understanding
 
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FlameProofHeretic

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GoSeminoles! said:
You are the liar. You falsely posed as someone asking a question in good faith. You have lied a second time by selecting an atheist icon even though you have just proven you are not.

Maybe he's really an atheist at heart, he just has to get past the DENIAL phase!
 
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BEATON1

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People seem to forget tah evolution is a theory and not a fact. It can, has and will continue to be disproven. Also, Christians believe what they believe through experience not shady scientific practices.



here is a nice read from clarifyingchristianity is the name of the site it is .com after clarifyingchristianity their sources are listed on the site. Some of them were links that I could not post because I'm a newbie

Scientists discovered “modern men” in Pliocene deposits.

Modern human skulls and bones have been discovered in Pliocene layers. These findings include those at Calaveras (1866), Castenedolo (1860, 1880), and Ipswich (1912). Finding modern human remains in layers that are believed to be 7-12 million years old casts serious doubt on the theory of evolution regarding humans (or scientific dating methods), since that is the time Ramapithecus (a supposed ape-man) was proposed to exist. If both Ramapithecus and modern man lived at the same time, we would know that people did not evolve from this “ancestor” (or any of the “later” ones). That is, for modern man to evolve from Ramapithecus, Ramapithecus would have had to exist before modern man. The evidence does not support this idea.

To explain these “threatening” discoveries, scientists offered many explanations regarding how all these fossils ended up in a Pliocene layer. The most popular explanation is that these remains were the result of burials, which just happened to end up in a Pliocene layer. There is, however, a real problem with this claim: no scientist wishes to announce a “discovery” and later have someone make them into a fool by revealing that they only dug up a grave (or was the naive dupe of a hoaxer). As a result, these men documented the geologic terrain to make sure that the remains they found were not the result of an “intrusive burial” before reporting the findings.

A Final Comment

Since this writer spent many years in scientific research, I know how painful it is to propose a theory and then discover evidence disproving the theory. Still, the professional thing to do is admit that the proposed theory was wrong and look for a new hypothesis. In this way, you eventually discover the truth. Open-minded scientists will always follow such a procedure. The reader may find it interesting to learn that it was our original intention to explain how God “used” evolutionary processes to accomplish the creation described in the Bible. We later learned that the evidence does not support the theory of evolution, but supports a literal creation by God in six days. This required a change in our “theory,” but we were more interested in presenting the truth than in promoting a favorite theory. Unfortunately, it seems that many people are so committed to the theory of evolution that they can not admit that their theory is failing on every front. Therefore, they “explain away” or ignore the evidence that they do not like and highlight evidence that supports their viewpoint. Selectively choosing the evidence you like and disregarding the evidence you dislike is not the way to discover the truth. For anyone who read this entire page (and who does not have a “chip” on their shoulder), one conclusion should be clear: the evidence strongly favors the Bible's creation account, and does not support the theory of evolution.





If you go to the site you will see more evidence, an extremely long page of evidence against macroevolution. They actually support microevolution since that is easily proven.
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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BEATON1 said:
People seem to forget tah evolution is a theory and not a fact.
Some people seem to be able to comprehend that the Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory AND a fact.


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

BEATON1 said:
It can, has and will continue to be disproven.
It can, but will never be disproved.


BEATON1 said:
Also, Christians believe what they believe through experience not shady scientific practices.
Also, almost all theists believe what they believe through baseless inculcation not by evaluating empirical evidence like science.


BEATON1 said:
here is a nice read from clarifyingchristianity is the name of the site it is .com after clarifyingchristianity their sources are listed on the site. Some of them were links that I could not post because I'm a newbie
BEATON1 said:

Scientists discovered “modern men” in Pliocene deposits.

Modern human skulls and bones have been discovered in Pliocene layers. These findings include those at Calaveras (1866), Castenedolo (1860, 1880), and Ipswich (1912). Finding modern human remains in layers that are believed to be 7-12 million years old casts serious doubt on the theory of evolution regarding humans (or scientific dating methods), since that is the time Ramapithecus (a supposed ape-man) was proposed to exist. If both Ramapithecus and modern man lived at the same time, we would know that people did not evolve from this “ancestor” (or any of the “later” ones). That is, for modern man to evolve from Ramapithecus, Ramapithecus would have had to exist before modern man. The evidence does not support this idea.
To explain these “threatening” discoveries, scientists offered many explanations regarding how all these fossils ended up in a Pliocene layer. The most popular explanation is that these remains were the result of burials, which just happened to end up in a Pliocene layer. There is, however, a real problem with this claim: no scientist wishes to announce a “discovery” and later have someone make them into a fool by revealing that they only dug up a grave (or was the naive dupe of a hoaxer). As a result, these men documented the geologic terrain to make sure that the remains they found were not the result of an “intrusive burial” before reporting the findings.
So science isn’t so bad now that you think you have found some science that may help justify your unsubstantiated beliefs? Where is the reference to back this assertion up? Where can I find the peer reviewed papers on this finding?

BEATON1 said:
A Final Comment
BEATON1 said:

Since this writer spent many years in scientific research, I know how painful it is to propose a theory and then discover evidence disproving the theory. Still, the professional thing to do is admit that the proposed theory was wrong and look for a new hypothesis. In this way, you eventually discover the truth. Open-minded scientists will always follow such a procedure. The reader may find it interesting to learn that it was our original intention to explain how God “used” evolutionary processes to accomplish the creation described in the Bible. We later learned that the evidence does not support the theory of evolution, but supports a literal creation by God in six days. This required a change in our “theory,” but we were more interested in presenting the truth than in promoting a favorite theory. Unfortunately, it seems that many people are so committed to the theory of evolution that they can not admit that their theory is failing on every front. Therefore, they “explain away” or ignore the evidence that they do not like and highlight evidence that supports their viewpoint. Selectively choosing the evidence you like and disregarding the evidence you dislike is not the way to discover the truth. For anyone who read this entire page (and who does not have a “chip” on their shoulder), one conclusion should be clear: the evidence strongly favors the Bible's creation account, and does not support the theory of evolution.
I await evidence. Pony up.

 
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notto

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BEATON1 said:

Modern human skulls and bones have been discovered in Pliocene layers. These findings include those at Calaveras (1866), Castenedolo (1860, 1880), and Ipswich (1912). Finding modern human remains in layers that are believed to be 7-12 million years old casts serious doubt on the theory of evolution regarding humans (or scientific dating methods), since that is the time Ramapithecus (a supposed ape-man) was proposed to exist. If both Ramapithecus and modern man lived at the same time, we would know that people did not evolve from this “ancestor” (or any of the “later” ones). That is, for modern man to evolve from Ramapithecus, Ramapithecus would have had to exist before modern man. The evidence does not support this idea.


From Answers In Genesis

Arguments we think creationists should NOT use

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp

(agument not to use)The Castenedolo and Calaveras human remains in “old” strata invalidate the geologic column.’
These are not sound examples—the Castenedolo skeletal material shows evidence of being an intrusive burial, i.e. a recent burial into older strata, since all the fossils apart from the human ones had time to be impregnated with salt. The Calaveras skull was probably a hoax planted into a mine by miners.
 
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corvus_corax

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BEATON1 said:

Modern human skulls and bones have been discovered in Pliocene layers. These findings include those at Calaveras (1866), Castenedolo (1860, 1880), and Ipswich (1912).
Calaveras hoax
and here as well

Castenedolo burial
Likewise,
"
The bones from Castenedolo, near Brescia in Italy, belong to several skeletons of men, women, and children and were found on various occasions in a shelly bed of sand and clay, of marine origin and of Pliocene age. In 1899, the discovery of a new human skeleton was the subject of an official report by Professor Issel, who then observed that the various fossils from this deposit were all impregnated with salt, with the sole exception of the human fossils.... It seems certain that at Castenedolo we are dealing with more or less recent burials."
and
"The Catalog of Fossil Hominids states: "Analysis of the bones showed that their residual collagen (assessed by %N) is higher than that of any other fossil bones from central and northern sites which have been tested" (p. 236). The end result of the collagen studies demonstrated that the Castenedolo materials were intrusive burials into the Astian clays. In 1969, the British Museum made radiocarbon tests on the cranial materials, and the tests demonstrated that the age was Holocene, the most recent life period (approximately twenty-five thousand years ago), and not Pliocene."


Not familiar with Ipswich though :scratch:
BEATON1 said:
#1.the site has references to their sources
.
Yes they do.
However, as evidence has come to light, even creationists are rejecting these as "evidence"
To quote notto (in case it gets ignored)
notto said:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp
(agument not to use)The Castenedolo and Calaveras human remains in “old” strata invalidate the geologic column.’
These are not sound examples—the Castenedolo skeletal material shows evidence of being an intrusive burial, i.e. a recent burial into older strata, since all the fossils apart from the human ones had time to be impregnated with salt. The Calaveras skull was probably a hoax planted into a mine by miners.
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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Calaveras Man
: this was a modern skull discovered in 1866 in California in Pliocene eposits (2 to 5 million years old). A few scientists did believe it genuine, but it was always widely considered to be a hoax. Personal testimonies and geological evidence indicate that it is probably a modern Indian found in nearby limestone caves, and that it was planted as a practical joke by miners. Tests have shown it to be recent, probably less than 1000 years old. (Dexter 1986; Taylor et al. 1992; Conrad 1982) (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html )
I’m relatively new here and I’m already learning how to identify a PRATT when I see it.
 
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gluadys

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Ed Vidence said:
Okay - the definition is not in dispute, what is in dispute is if the speciation/macroevolution happens.

It does. This has been observed.


There is no physical evidence in the fossil strata supporting the giant assumption of speciation which you are making and trying to downplay, and attempting to conceal within the undisputed facts of microevolution.

Generally speaking the fossil record is not fine-grained enough to show speciation and has left only records of transitionals at higher-level taxa. In some lineages however, there are records at and below the family level as well.

There is an extensive catalogue of transitional fossils including species level transitions here.

btw I do not post this link so that you can debate with Kathleen Hunt, but so that there is a common base of information for debating in this forum.

The Milton quote plainly says what is established fact: speciation is not observable nor can it be made the object of experiment.

Milton is wrong. This study

G Kilias, SN Alahiotis, and M Pelecanos. A multifactorial genetic investigation of speciation theory using drosophila melanogaster Evolution 34:730-737, 1980.​

details the result of an experiment which resulted in the formation of several new species of Drosophila including those which no longer subsisted on fruit but had adapted to diets of meat or bread.

All on its own it refutes both parts of Milton's statement. Speciation can be observed and it can be the object of experiment.
 
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gluadys

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BEATON1 said:
Since this writer spent many years in scientific research, I know how painful it is to propose a theory and then discover evidence disproving the theory.

I take it that your theory was not related to biology.


The reader may find it interesting to learn that it was our original intention to explain how God “used” evolutionary processes to accomplish the creation described in the Bible. We later learned that the evidence does not support the theory of evolution, but supports a literal creation by God in six days.

Yes, very interesting. I have never yet found a person whose "conversion" from evolution to literal 6 day creation was really based on problems with the evidence for evolution. So every time this claim is made, I want to know what was the key thing that clinched it for you.

What did you discover that supports literal creation by God in six days. What did you discover that rendered the evidence for evolution invalid for you?

For anyone who read this entire page (and who does not have a “chip” on their shoulder), one conclusion should be clear: the evidence strongly favors the Bible's creation account, and does not support the theory of evolution

If you go to the site you will see more evidence, an extremely long page of evidence against macroevolution. They actually support microevolution since that is easily proven.

I take it you mean this page.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/creation.shtml

Unfortunately I found it to be a mish-mash of PRATTS, strawmen, misinformation and lies. I can be more specific if you wish.
 
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Ed Vidence

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Loudmouth said:
What "utter lack"? Even Darwin listed an obvious transition in the fossil record.

Negative.

Darwin did not admit the fact that the geological fossil formations completely lacked proof of his theory, then go on and contradict himself as you are saying above.

Whatever it is that you are talking about was hoped for evidence.

Nothing can erase the Darwin quote and its fact even though you are desparately trying to do so.

What Darwin was talking about is the selective nature of the fossil record

You can spin it this way but the fact remains that there were no intermediates displayed in the record.

How did an inantimate object (the fossil record) just so happen to not select the very thing the theory said had to be ?

This is rhetorical.

You and Darwin are making excuses for the geological record not showing the main claim of your theory: macroevolution.

So are we to believe the fossil record has a mind that selectively eliminated from showing the very thing your theory says is a voluminous fact ?

How did an inantimate object accomplish this ?

At this point, Darwin and you are arguing as fact something that did not exist via insisting the fossil record somehow chose not to show exactly what the theory says it must show. This is intelligence insulting falsification evasion at its plain worst.

You and Darwin are quote mining the fossil record: making it say exatly opposite of what it says and what Darwin admitted it said.

which isn't too unexpected given the rare occurence of fossilization.

Invoking the lack of evidence a sweetheart exemption. Sorry, no evidence means the theory is untrue.

Like I said in the OP - assumptions are substituted for evidence based on the undisputed facts of microevolution. Fossilization is rare which means you are using this fact as an excuse for the lack of evidence. This means you are relying on philosophy (naturalism) while allowing the reliance to be viewed as based on evidence.

The lack of the necessary fossilization as admitted by you cannot be held as evidence for the theory. The lack of evidence for whatever reason disproves the theory not the other way around.

Gould also recognized what Darwin and Milton recognized, yet the lack of the very thing that the theory says is true has no geological fossil evidence.

The formations show species appearing, then slightly changing over time, then disappearance. How could it show all that but somehow decide/select not to show exactly what you assert is fact ?

Answer: Because macroevolution is assumed because Genesis is not an option.

The lack of any evidence for macro proves and corroborates Genesis as true still.

Let's see what Darwin actually said:

"For my part, following out Lyell's metaphor, I look at the natural geological record, as a history of the world imperfectly kept, and written in a changing dialect; of this history we possess the last volume alone, relating only to two or three countries. Of this volume, only here and there a short chapter has been preserved; and of each page, only here and there a few lines. Each word of the slowly-changing language, in which the history is supposed to be written, being more or less different in the interrupted succession of chapters, may represent the apparently abruptly changed forms of life, entombed in our consecutive, but widely separated formations. On this view, the difficulties above discussed are greatly diminished, or even disappear."


A massive excuse for the lack of transitionals.

What evidence supports this predictible opinion ?

The fact remains: the geological record shows nothing of the very thing Darwin's theory says it must. In response, he produces an evidence defying excuse of why an inantimate object, something that has no ability to have bias, actually refutes his theory.

Darwin accepts as fact that the fossil record does not show macro but then contrary to the facts asserts his theory is fact nontheless, based on what physical evidence Charles ?

Answer: Evolution of the gaps, insert opinion in the gaps contrary to the physical evidence.

The excuse and assertion contrary to the fossil record is only done because Genesis is not an option.

Darwin has no sense and was not loyal to evidence/fossil record.

BTW, Darwin did not have a science degree and it surely does show.


What Darwin is saying is that fossil preservation is rare and will not always capture each small change, or as Darwin put it "more or less different in the interrupted succession of chapters".

No he is not.

He made an excuse as to why there is no evidence of his theory in the fossil record.

Funny how the record failed to capture what he admits is the one thing which falsifies his theory.

Rarity or not: no evidence, macro ASSUMED because Genesis is not an option.

Assumptions are not evidence.

The Milton and Darwin quotes in context have repelled falsification. Macro is assumed based on micro.

The most "respected" theory of all time has admittedly no evidence in the fossil record but is accepted as fact: now you see why I say "because Genesis is not an option".

Other important quotes (from Chapter 9:On the Imperfection of the Geological Record). You can read Chapter 9 here:

"Also, only a scant percentage of fossil bearing sediments have been searched. Can we really say that these fossils are absent if we have only looked at 0.00000001% of the earth?

But over a 100 years later Milton confirms the situation had not changed and so did Gould.

Well funded geological enquiries have been conducted ad nauseum since the 19th century, which means you can augment the above figure to 100 percent.

Ed Vidence
 
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Ed Vidence

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GoSeminoles! said:
But has any of this evidence been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals? If not, then it doesn't count.

You mean Darwinian journals.

How could Darwinian sources promote evidence which contradicts and disproves their theory ?

Darwinian peer reviewed scientific journals: A process to make sure what another Darwinist has already spoken for is not contradicted, and any evidence against the theory is not given a microphone.

Ed Vidence
 
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Ed Vidence said:
You mean Darwinian journals.

How could Darwinian sources promote evidence which contradicts and disproves their theory ?

Darwinian peer reviewed scientific journals: A process to make sure what another Darwinist has already spoken for is not contradicted, and any evidence against the theory is not given a microphone.

Ed Vidence

your stance of a great conspiracy is put to rest with a little history. look at prions and ulcers as h. pylori infection. there a single scientist fought against the whole establishment to get his voice heard. they were laughed at etc. but in the end they were not only heard but their views are now the common ones.

so yes, there are barriers, but the facts can overcome them. there just aren't any YECists evidences to be considered. if there were we would have heard them here over the last few years. why don't you present one for discussion?


....
 
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